139 replies to this topic

[poopiehead]

well that applies to almost all classes doesnt it? if you got all 15 gear and a raider for refine 5 gear ofc, but thats not the point what I am saying is a one skill should not be dealing that much damage no matter what the persons defense is.

a (10) champ will not lose to a raider with (10) equips if he knows how to use a champ. burn is very good, but its not the reason a raider might beat a champ/knight/other classes

Edited by poopiehead, 30 November 2010 - 10:34 PM.

[Phish]

I just want to know, what games do burn or poison do damage based off the opponents defense?

[Irtofu]

a (10) champ will not lose to a raider with (10) equips if he knows how to use a champ. burn is very good, but its not the reason a raider might beat a champ/knight/other classes

a champ with 10 gear will lose to a raider, try it 10 weapon and 10 gear, because no matter what refine the raiders katar is his burn no matter what will do a base of 4k damage

[Span]

a champ with 10 gear will lose to a raider, try it 10 weapon and 10 gear, because no matter what refine the raiders katar is his burn no matter what will do a base of 4k damage

I doubt a champ couldn't do more then 4k damage in 10 seconds . It depends on how u play it .

[Irtofu]

I doubt a champ couldn't do more then 4k damage in 10 seconds . It depends on how u play it .

not to a raider with a refine 10 weapon... and still then raiders will do more damage burn is a span of 8 seconds + initial condition

[Phish]

not to a raider with a refine 10 weapon... and still then raiders will do more damage burn is a span of 8 seconds + initial condition

If you cant deal 4k damage in 10 seconds to someone than you won't kill them anyway because food already heals more than that.

[Soda]

From the fact that they do better overall from the following categories PVM, PVP(selff buff), PVP(With Cleric buffs)

PVM in most maps where knights take damage raiders with their dodge take zero damage
PVP(self buff) name one class that can effectively deal full damage to a raider with full dodge gear, im not talking about that half damage stuff.
PVP(with Cleric buffs) why do you even call knights tanks when a raider can take out a knight solo? Guess this game has turned into something where a tank is considered a person who can only tank one person.

Also so you justify a knight with 20k defense still taking like 5k damage for one skill to be fair? Lmao

Sorry but if thats how you describe a knight.. that must be a crappy one ..
and no.. raiders cant kill a knight alone.. ive tried doing 1 on 1 with davids xbow knight,
the 1 on 1 was like 3 mins long and he just ran because he was out of mp.
(with hp pots)

Oh and about the burn.. If ur too lazy too carry a puri pot or let ur cleric purify you.. Not my fault.
(Same as clerics whining about raiders getting them with cloak, when in fact its your party members fault for not decloaking)

Edited by Soda, 01 December 2010 - 01:17 AM.

[Metaleux]

sorry to say, if you have above 15k hp? have you actually tested it? knights even with their high defense and hp die after 2-3 burns along with melee

Well I've played raider and champ alot and all I can say is that I havnt seen any problem with the burn on both chars.

[BrownBear]

well that applies to almost all classes doesnt it? if you got all 15 gear and a raider for refine 5 gear ofc, but thats not the point what I am saying is a one skill should not be dealing that much damage no matter what the persons defense is.

I'm not talking about gear when I refer to someone as good. I'm not disagreeing with you either. I just think that raiders need something like this to keep up now. So if anything, just increase the cooldown.

a (10) champ will not lose to a raider with (10) equips if he knows how to use a champ. burn is very good, but its not the sole reason a raider might beat a champ/knight/other classes

This was my point, with the added bold.

Edited by BrownBear, 01 December 2010 - 05:40 AM.

[poopiehead]

not to a raider with a refine 10 weapon... and still then raiders will do more damage burn is a span of 8 seconds + initial condition

ive seen raiders and champs with equally refined equips, and the raider lost

ive seen raiders with HIGHER refined equips, and the raiders lost


i dont see why ur having so much trouble killing raiders that makes u think its overpowering...if you cant deal enough damage to a raider to out power their burn, get more accuracy...

[paLDube]

then you mean to say raiders are OP same as champ? . .so it needs some balancing thing?
this is way more nerfing not balancing..
and as tanking. .i dont believe raiders can beat knight at tanking.. .
To be honest i didnt see any intelligent discussion of what you posted above.The main Problem to this is not in the character(jobs) itself or the skill or whatever blah blah blah . .its how you played individually of your character. ..

[tENLAVUU]

then you mean to say raiders are OP same as champ? . .so it needs some balancing thing?
this is way more nerfing not balancing..
and as tanking. .i dont believe raiders can beat knight at tanking.. .
To be honest i didnt see any intelligent discussion of what you posted above.The main Problem to this is not in the character(jobs) itself or the skill or whatever blah blah blah . .its how you played individually of your character. ..

haha foreal.

and to add to that, in a war scenario, group of champs/knights can very well clear an area a lot better than a group of raiders. I've even lost sides in a heart beat when defending while being aoe'ed by a group of champs. no matter how good someone is, no raider can take on a good knight(gear only does so much, im refering to skills) while tanking hits from other people.

[XBlazeX]

Raiders have been nerfed enough. What your asking is not balancing but nerfing changing a skill that raiders rely on and is actually worth getting to survive, what else would raiders have left? If anything champs need to be altered abit and other classes need to be improved. Bringing attention to raiders is just laughable.

[Irtofu]

Sorry but if thats how you describe a knight.. that must be a crappy one ..
and no.. raiders cant kill a knight alone.. ive tried doing 1 on 1 with davids xbow knight,
the 1 on 1 was like 3 mins long and he just ran because he was out of mp.
(with hp pots)

Oh and about the burn.. If ur too lazy too carry a puri pot or let ur cleric purify you.. Not my fault.
(Same as clerics whining about raiders getting them with cloak, when in fact its your party members fault for not decloaking)

how is that the same? can you please list what type of gear you have and what type of gear he has? and puri does nothing because the skills cooldown is so short

[Irtofu]

ive seen raiders and champs with equally refined equips, and the raider lost

ive seen raiders with HIGHER refined equips, and the raiders lost


i dont see why ur having so much trouble killing raiders that makes u think its overpowering...if you cant deal enough damage to a raider to out power their burn, get more accuracy...

i never said I cant kill a raider, where in my post did I say that?

[Irtofu]

then you mean to say raiders are OP same as champ? . .so it needs some balancing thing?
this is way more nerfing not balancing..
and as tanking. .i dont believe raiders can beat knight at tanking.. .
To be honest i didnt see any intelligent discussion of what you posted above.The main Problem to this is not in the character(jobs) itself or the skill or whatever blah blah blah . .its how you played individually of your character. ..

instead of saying no to raiders not being able to tank more then knights can you justify your reasoning? instead of saying oh no this or no that. Also your idea of a balanced classes makes no sense at all, you are not basing it off the design of the game and more on the skills of a player.

[poopiehead]

instead of saying no to raiders not being able to tank more then knights can you justify your reasoning? instead of saying oh no this or no that. Also your idea of a balanced classes makes no sense at all, you are not basing it off the design of the game and more on the skills of a player.

reasoning? he doesnt need to justify his reasoning. just go to uw and u'll see for it urself.

how is he not basing it off the design of the game..knights are suppose to tank more than raiders, and they DO.

l2multiquote

Edited by poopiehead, 01 December 2010 - 05:39 PM.

[Phish]

instead of saying no to raiders not being able to tank more then knights can you justify your reasoning? instead of saying oh no this or no that. Also your idea of a balanced classes makes no sense at all, you are not basing it off the design of the game and more on the skills of a player.

Knights have significantly more defense, more hp, and around the same magic defense. 47% of the time when you hit a knight your attack power will be reduced due to blocking, Knights can also debuff your attack power (impact wave 25% or Battle Scream 20%), they can also reduce your attack speed (slow shot 45% or triple attack 15% if you use that), These can cripple your offense further.

Dual raiders can attack speed down as well, yes.


Raiders have much higher dodge, but if hit with reliable skills even when they miss and do 50%, the damage will likely be the same as when a knight takes the full hit. (physical skills, missing a magic skill and a raider will likely do less damage than hitting one on a knight).

If your logic is that knights can't tank well due to burns; well raiders get hurt by them even more since they have lower hp...

[Irtofu]

reasoning? he doesnt need to justify his reasoning. just go to uw and u'll see for it urself.

how is he not basing it off the design of the game..knights are suppose to tank more than raiders, and they DO.

l2multiquote

you are really not getting the point, im sorry to say this game is not based on only one aspect of the game(uw) im talking about overall pvm, Pvp(self buff) and pvp(buffs). Also the fact that raiders now the advantage of getting higher hp due to pots and higher defense and magic defense now also and the fact they can stealth and cloak.

[Irtofu]

Knights have significantly more defense, more hp, and around the same magic defense. 47% of the time when you hit a knight your attack power will be reduced due to blocking, Knights can also debuff your attack power (impact wave 25% or Battle Scream 20%), they can also reduce your attack speed (slow shot 45% or triple attack 15% if you use that), These can cripple your offense further.

Dual raiders can attack speed down as well, yes.


Raiders have much higher dodge, but if hit with reliable skills even when they miss and do 50%, the damage will likely be the same as when a knight takes the full hit. (physical skills, missing a magic skill and a raider will likely do less damage than hitting one on a knight).

If your logic is that knights can't tank well due to burns; well raiders get hurt by them even more since they have lower hp...

but they have dodge and practically raider vs raider the only skill that does damage is burn. Also the fact that from what you are listing it looks like you are saying knights can use all those debuffs at the same time, and what does debuffing attack power even do? attack power has nothing to do with burn, so it doesnt matter if they use attack power down. and also now with hp pots and all the difference between in hp between a raider and knight is only like what? +/- 4k difference

Edited by Irtofu, 01 December 2010 - 06:03 PM.

[poopiehead]

you are really not getting the point, im sorry to say this game is not based on only one aspect of the game(uw) im talking about overall pvm, Pvp(self buff) and pvp(buffs). Also the fact that raiders now the advantage of getting higher hp due to pots and higher defense and magic defense now also and the fact they can stealth and cloak.

kay:

pvm: neither classes has ANY problems if equally geared. no classes should have problems in pvm if your fighting mobs ur suppose to fight.

pvp(self buff): sure, raiders can go full dodge and get 4k+ dodge, but they will have crappy ap. also there are reliable skills. they may do 50% dmg, but its a lot compare to a raider with like 14k hp.

pvp (cleric buff): again, reliable skills. champs have ap/aspeed debuffs, stuns. even if they use spears(low acc), they will still do tons of dmg to a raider.

sword champs will have even ezier time killing raiders

knights should not have trouble hitting raiders since they have so much acc passives.


iuno why this is so hard for u...


RAIDERS DIE EZILY + hits low! the burn brings them up to par with other classes so they dont do like 2k dmg b4 they die.

[Irtofu]

reasoning? he doesnt need to justify his reasoning. just go to uw and u'll see for it urself.

how is he not basing it off the design of the game..knights are suppose to tank more than raiders, and they DO.

l2multiquote

he is not basing it off the design on the game because he was referring to how well a player vs the games mechanics.

[Irtofu]

kay:

pvm: neither classes has ANY problems if equally geared. no classes should have problems in pvm if your fighting mobs ur suppose to fight.

pvp(self buff): sure, raiders can go full dodge and get 4k+ dodge, but they will have crappy ap. also there are reliable skills. they may do 50% dmg, but its a lot compare to a raider with like 14k hp.

pvp (cleric buff): again, reliable skills. champs have ap/aspeed debuffs, stuns. even if they use spears(low acc), they will still do tons of dmg to a raider.

sword champs will have even ezier time killing raiders

knights should not have trouble hitting raiders since they have so much acc passives.

iuno why this is so hard for u...


RAIDERS DIE EZILY + hits low! the burn brings them up to par with other classes so they dont do like 2k dmg b4 they die.

why are u always referring to champs? this game isnt only about champs you know, there are actually other classes people play.Also, raiders hit low? really? what are you basing that off of? melee attacks vs a knight?

Edited by Irtofu, 01 December 2010 - 06:09 PM.

[Phish]

but they have dodge and practically raider vs raider the only skill that does damage is burn. Also the fact that from what you are listing it looks like you are saying knights can use all those debuffs at the same time, and what does debuffing attack power even do? attack power has nothing to do with burn, so it doesnt matter if they use attack power down. and also now with hp pots and all the difference between in hp between a raider and knight is only like what? +/- 4k difference

I only listed two skills, one set for mace and one set for crossbow. Obviously you can't use two skills at once but you should be able to land two skills in a figth against soemone. 4k is alot of hp especially considering the low damage intake of knights anyway.

[Irtofu]

I only listed two skills, one set for mace and one set for crossbow. Obviously you can't use two skills at once but you should be able to land two skills in a figth against soemone. 4k is alot of hp especially considering the low damage intake of knights anyway.

thats 1 burn, and like you said 4k is a lot of damage intake for a knight:) hence there is something that needs to be worked on with burn

Edited by Irtofu, 01 December 2010 - 08:02 PM.