139 replies to this topic

[Irtofu]

you cant compare the damage you do when they dodge ur atk to the dmg u do to other classes when u successfully land an atk.

thats like saying "oh, i hit knights for 400 dmg when the same atk does 3k to a raider, omg knights OP"

400 damage to a knight? try it first then come talk to me, with 10k ap you will not do 400 damage to a knight, and tell me how often do classes do 3k damage to a raider, please name a class that can do that much without counting effects.

[BrownBear]

400 damage to a knight? try it first then come talk to me, with 10k ap you will not do 400 damage to a knight, and tell me how often do classes do 3k damage to a raider, please name a class that can do that much without counting effects.

He wasn't being literal with his numbers.


I feel like a mediator.

[Span]

400 damage to a knight? try it first then come talk to me, with 10k ap you will not do 400 damage to a knight, and tell me how often do classes do 3k damage to a raider, please name a class that can do that much without counting effects.

Champs , duh .

[poopiehead]

400 damage to a knight? try it first then come talk to me, with 10k ap you will not do 400 damage to a knight, and tell me how often do classes do 3k damage to a raider, please name a class that can do that much without counting effects.

i didnt say 10k ap did i?
i didnt say the knight's equips
i didnt say which skills

[XBlazeX]

Irtofu is the only one who thinks Raiders still need to get nerfed. Leave him be, hes alone in this not so intelligent matter. Should have looked at all the classes over all before suggesting a Raider nerf. We all know what classes need to be improved and what to be balanced. Raiders are good as it is atm, any further nerfs on a Raider will render them almost ineffective. I honestly think this is a half thought thread.

Edited by XBlazeX, 09 December 2010 - 12:46 AM.

[Soda]

Tbh I dont know why others find raiders so good. Its them , that doesn't know how to play other classes right. Seriously, almost all class can kill a raider if others know how to time decloak and etc.

[poopiehead]

Id rather fight against a raider than a champ/knight ...

[BrownBear]

Id rather fight against a raider than a champ/knight ...

Knight vs champ and knight vs knight in UW is never ending if you pot.

[poopiehead]

Knight vs champ and knight vs knight in UW is never ending if you pot.

LOL so true. b4 pots were changed, someone took my spot in ruins, came back with my knight and ended up fighting til our buffs ran out and left.

few days ago, i fought a champ on my bourg and it lasted a good 10min or so...

[Irtofu]

Irtofu is the only one who thinks Raiders still need to get nerfed. Leave him be, hes alone in this not so intelligent matter. Should have looked at all the classes over all before suggesting a Raider nerf. We all know what classes need to be improved and what to be balanced. Raiders are good as it is atm, any further nerfs on a Raider will render them almost ineffective. I honestly think this is a half thought thread.

well its fine if I am alone, probably the reason to that is because 99% of the people replying to this thread play raiders themselves, so its fine if they disagree. No one wants the class they play 99% of the time degraded, its normal.

Edited by Irtofu, 09 December 2010 - 10:51 PM.

[Irtofu]

up for more suggestions

Edited by Irtofu, 18 December 2010 - 02:58 PM.

[Phish]

I was thinking of ways to adjust damage over time skills in ways that are more appropriate for the situation. This turned out to be longer than I expected. Anyway....


There are a couple things you need to assess about burn skills.

1. No matter how low your stats are or how high your oponnents stats are, the status will still inflict the same damage.
2. These skills are useful in pvm at lowere levels, but lose there usefulness at higher levels.
3. In pvp, these skills are very overpowered at low levels (although there is very little pvp), and somewhat overpowered at high levels if the castor is significantly weaker than the target.

Right now it is 500 damage per second regardless of any of your stats or level. But I was beginning to think; what if the burn damage would be directly related to your attack power? The higher your attack power is, the greater the damage per second is for burns.



Why not make a burn status do something like: (1.1(attack power)) + (2(level)) x .2
Have the damage halved for a target in pvp.


If you have 3500 attack power at level 220, and you burn a monster it will deal 858 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 3500 attack power at level 220, and you burn another player it will deal 429 damage per second from the burn.


If you have 5000 attack power at level 220, and you burn a monster it will deal 1188 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 5000 attack power at level 220, and you burn another player it will deal 594 damage per second from the burn.

If you have 8000 attack power at level 220, and you burn a monster it will deal 1848 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 8000 attack power at level 220, and you burn another player it will deal 924 damage per second from the burn.



If you have 1250 attack power at level 100, and you burn a monster it will deal 315 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 1250 attack power at level 100, and you burn another player it will deal 158 damage per second from the burn.




Now I believe the same formula should apply for all burns. You might notice this will make mages burn skills overpowered because their attack power is much higher than a raiders, which is completely true. A good way to balance that is to remove the initial damage from those skills (fire ring, hellfire, mana burn).



Mage Burns:

Fire Ring: This skill currently has an 8 second duration, is single target and is equip wiht 15%? defense down. It is also the slowest casting of the mage burn skills.

I think this skill should keep it's initial damage and skill power, however the burn duration should be reduced to say 3 seconds.

Hellfire: This is the 2nd job single target burn. It has 95% success and lasts 12 seconds.

, Reduce the duration to 10 seconds (or leave it at 12), and remove the skill damage and increase the success to 100%. If you are fighting in 8k attack power it will do 9240 damage by the time the skill is over. That may seem like alot, but previously the attack would have done 6k damage from the burn plus the initial skill damage which would turn out roughly the same.

Mana Burn: This skill currently has 90% success, is single target damage but has an aoe status of 6m range. It also comes along with 30% defense down and lasts 10 seconds.

Reduce the duration to 8 seconds and remove the skill damage. Increase the aoe radius to 10m range. The cooldown could probably be increased on this one by maybe 5 seconds.



Raider Burns:

Flame Hawk: 8 second duration, 8m range, 100% success slow casting.



Plasma Falcon: 5 second duration, 12m range, 100% success, slow casting

I think this skill should remain the same, as the duration is already short and the casting time is among the slowest of all raider skills.

Phoenix Slash: 8 second duration, 90%? success, quick casting, and short cooldown.

The main problem with this skill I beleive is the short (4 second) cooldown, which allows the user to keep the opponnent burned the entire fight. The cooldown should be increased to be longer than the duration because of that, 11 seconds maybe?

Flame Slash: 10 second duration, 95%? success, quick casting.

Similar to phoenix slash, this skills cooldown is much shorter than the duration, which should be increased slightly higher than the duration. 14 seconds perhaps?





Poison skills are similar to burn skills although slightly different. They have a different dps value dependant upon the skills, although all of them are weaker than burns however usually last longer. Poison skills may not be as overpowered and may not need changing, however they still share some similarities with burn skills flaws. Practically useless in pvm at high levels, and somewhat overpowered in low level pvp. However if anything, I think poison status could be based off of accuracy instead of attack power.


Possibly: (1.1(accuracy)) + (2(level)) x .15

If you have 2000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison a monster it will deal 396 damage per second from the poison.
If you have 2000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison another player it will deal 198 damage per second from the poison.

If you have 4000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison a monster it will deal 726 damage per second from the poison.
If you have 4000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison another player it will deal 363 damage per second from the poison.


If you have 400 accuracy at level 50, and you Poison a monster it will deal 81 damage per second from the poison.
If you have 400 accuracy at level 50, and you Poison another player it will deal 41 damage per second from the poison.


Poison Skills:

Raider/Hawker:

Poison Knife: 18 second duration 80% success, 15m range quick casting speed. I'm unsure about the damage per second as The Rose Compendium does not list it, however this is one of the weakest poison skills.

the duration should be lowered possibly from 10-15 seconds

Venom Knife: 30 second duration, 75% success, 20m range, quick casting speed, also comeswith 15% aspeed down, this poison deals 300 damage per second.

The duration should be lowered, possibly from 10-15 seconds


Scout:

Poison Arrow: 15 second duration, 88% success, I am unsure of the current damage per second on this poison.

This skill could probably stay the same, if anything it could be changed to 100% success.


Bourgious:

Toxic Shot: 26 second duration, 100% success, I am unsure the current damage per second on this poison, slow casting.

The duration should be lowered, possibly from 12-15 seconds.

Artisan:

Poison Shot: 30 second duration, 99% success, 150 damage per second from poison, slow casting.

Because of artisans high accuracy this skills duration would need to be lowered. An 8-10 second duration should suffice.


Acid High explosive: approximately 30 second duration, unkown success (50% maybe?), 300 damage per second from poison.

[i]Because of artisans high accuracy this skills duration would need to be lowered, however it should be higher than poison shot because of the lower success. Increase the success to 75% and decrease the duration from 10-15 seconds.







Tldr; Make burn statuses based off your attack power and poison based off of your accuracy. Skills would be adjusted slightly to compensate.

This can also add a bit more depth to builds for characters with damage over time skills.

Edited by Phish, 18 December 2010 - 10:53 PM.

[Soda]

Fix Raiders burn. Leave mages burns as it is (since i find them too weak defensively), Nerf Champs def, hp , m-spd. Fix the Gheynades.. *bow*

[Blitzkrieg]

well its fine if I am alone, probably the reason to that is because 99% of the people replying to this thread play raiders themselves, so its fine if they disagree. No one wants the class they play 99% of the time degraded, its normal.

well now your thread seems more like a I HATE RAIDERS cuz u have never played them thread
RAIDERS have always been a good class because of skills like cloaking,stealth,burn which are the best NOOB PANIC skills
an experienced player has many ways of countering a raider and the above skills i listed
for eg: a mute/stun between two burns helps you to avoid permaburn
OR identifying whether whether a raider is in stealth or cloaking and then decloaking
OR keeping an eye out for flying buffs
if any character keeps these and some more points in mind you will realise that most raiders run out of ideas
SO...unless you run into a really smart raider or you are unexperienced or you totally ignore accuracy a raider should not be able to beat you
clerics are the only class that raiders have an upper hand against as they dont have decloak and i guess it will be fixed pretty soon

you also need to check the last 6 months patch notes an you will realise raiders have been the target of nerfs without being compensated any where

SO I BEG YOU LEAVE RAIDERS ALONE
any more nerfs and RAIDERS will soon get a heal from the dev team and will be running around as FS raiders..... and ppl will post RAIDERS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE FIGHTING CLASSES on the forums as you see for clerics (although i disagree)

i dont have a doubt that BURN skills need to be nerfed and thats what most people were requesting since many months but it has resulted in other skills being nerfed
SO IF BURN IS NERFED
make raiders the fastest class again by making sprint like quickstep
remove sleep from mystic knife and make debuff chance 100% and make it MAGIC damage
and FIX CRIT !!!!!!!!

and lastly
refer to raiders as katar raiders cuz duals have pretty much died in all this nerfing and any more harm to their skills will almost make em extinct (any they have only 1 burn unlike katars)

[Blitzkrieg]

Nerf Champs def, hp , m-spd.

this is one class that needs to be nerfed before anything else

[Span]

this is one class that needs to be nerfed before anything else

Cause ur not playing one of them ? Screw off .

[Blitzkrieg]

Cause ur not playing one of them ? Screw off .

i have played champ (till lvl 160 )
by that time i realised how much more OP they were and quit cuz it was just booring

i dont want champs to be underpowered but at least bring them at par with others

[Soda]

well now your thread seems more like a I HATE RAIDERS cuz u have never played them thread
RAIDERS have always been a good class because of skills like cloaking,stealth,burn which are the best NOOB PANIC skills
an experienced player has many ways of countering a raider and the above skills i listed
for eg: a mute/stun between two burns helps you to avoid permaburn
OR identifying whether whether a raider is in stealth or cloaking and then decloaking
OR keeping an eye out for flying buffs
if any character keeps these and some more points in mind you will realise that most raiders run out of ideas
SO...unless you run into a really smart raider or you are unexperienced or you totally ignore accuracy a raider should not be able to beat you
clerics are the only class that raiders have an upper hand against as they dont have decloak and i guess it will be fixed pretty soon

you also need to check the last 6 months patch notes an you will realise raiders have been the target of nerfs without being compensated any where

SO I BEG YOU LEAVE RAIDERS ALONE
any more nerfs and RAIDERS will soon get a heal from the dev team and will be running around as FS raiders..... and ppl will post RAIDERS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE FIGHTING CLASSES on the forums as you see for clerics (although i disagree)

i dont have a doubt that BURN skills need to be nerfed and thats what most people were requesting since many months but it has resulted in other skills being nerfed
SO IF BURN IS NERFED
make raiders the fastest class again by making sprint like quickstep
remove sleep from mystic knife and make debuff chance 100% and make it MAGIC damage
and FIX CRIT !!!!!!!!

and lastly
refer to raiders as katar raiders cuz duals have pretty much died in all this nerfing and any more harm to their skills will almost make em extinct (any they have only 1 burn unlike katars)

I didnt read everything but i got your point. Raider is a close range class which his only advantage is cloak and dodge. Cloak? too lazy to click decloak? or you either need glasses. Dodge? I know increasing your acc wont fully make you hit raiders but INCREASING YOUR ACC gives you better chance of hitting a raider.

Best class suited to kill raiders
1.)Gunbourgs/Artisan 2.)Scouts 3.)Champ
But srsly almost all class can kill a raider if you know how to play right.. geezz..

edit: LOL@u quoting me and then deleting it..

Edited by Soda, 29 December 2010 - 01:35 AM.

[Irtofu]

Fix Raiders burn. Leave mages burns as it is (since i find them too weak defensively), Nerf Champs def, hp , m-spd. Fix the Gheynades.. *bow*

lol... when was champs hp ever overpowered? now this is just gonna kill champs, why nerf hp? and defense should not be touched, because lower defense + lower m-speed is just going to be exactly like how the old champs were and no one played them.

[Irtofu]

I didnt read everything but i got your point. Raider is a close range class which his only advantage is cloak and dodge. Cloak? too lazy to click decloak? or you either need glasses. Dodge? I know increasing your acc wont fully make you hit raiders but INCREASING YOUR ACC gives you better chance of hitting a raider.

Best class suited to kill raiders
1.)Gunbourgs/Artisan 2.)Scouts 3.)Champ
But srsly almost all class can kill a raider if you know how to play right.. geezz..

edit: LOL@u quoting me and then deleting it..

lol-.- scouts killing raiders?-.- thats a joke-.- and champs cant take out a decent raider 1 v 1.

[Soda]

lol-.- scouts killing raiders?-.- thats a joke-.- and champs cant take out a decent raider 1 v 1.

Seriously, You think scouts are so weak cause only a few of them stands out but ive met good scouts already in UW even my cleric is having a hard time tanking them. I cant say a champ cant win a 1 vs 1, its just either the raider will win or the fight will last for 20 mins (the buffs will ran out).

[Blitzkrieg]

I didnt read everything but i got your point. Raider is a close range class which his only advantage is cloak and dodge. Cloak? too lazy to click decloak? or you either need glasses. Dodge? I know increasing your acc wont fully make you hit raiders but INCREASING YOUR ACC gives you better chance of hitting a raider.

Best class suited to kill raiders
1.)Gunbourgs/Artisan 2.)Scouts 3.)Champ
But srsly almost all class can kill a raider if you know how to play right.. geezz..

edit: LOL@u quoting me and then deleting it..

perfect
to the POINT
+1

[Irtofu]

Seriously, You think scouts are so weak cause only a few of them stands out but ive met good scouts already in UW even my cleric is having a hard time tanking them. I cant say a champ cant win a 1 vs 1, its just either the raider will win or the fight will last for 20 mins (the buffs will ran out).

no, its not that, its because I know for a fact that a raider with even selfbuffs can take out or have a fair chance vs a scout with full buffs

[Irtofu]

I was thinking of ways to adjust damage over time skills in ways that are more appropriate for the situation. This turned out to be longer than I expected. Anyway....


There are a couple things you need to assess about burn skills.

1. No matter how low your stats are or how high your oponnents stats are, the status will still inflict the same damage.
2. These skills are useful in pvm at lowere levels, but lose there usefulness at higher levels.
3. In pvp, these skills are very overpowered at low levels (although there is very little pvp), and somewhat overpowered at high levels if the castor is significantly weaker than the target.

Right now it is 500 damage per second regardless of any of your stats or level. But I was beginning to think; what if the burn damage would be directly related to your attack power? The higher your attack power is, the greater the damage per second is for burns.



Why not make a burn status do something like: (1.1(attack power)) + (2(level)) x .2
Have the damage halved for a target in pvp.


If you have 3500 attack power at level 220, and you burn a monster it will deal 858 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 3500 attack power at level 220, and you burn another player it will deal 429 damage per second from the burn.


If you have 5000 attack power at level 220, and you burn a monster it will deal 1188 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 5000 attack power at level 220, and you burn another player it will deal 594 damage per second from the burn.

If you have 8000 attack power at level 220, and you burn a monster it will deal 1848 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 8000 attack power at level 220, and you burn another player it will deal 924 damage per second from the burn.



If you have 1250 attack power at level 100, and you burn a monster it will deal 315 damage per second from the burn.
If you have 1250 attack power at level 100, and you burn another player it will deal 158 damage per second from the burn.




Now I believe the same formula should apply for all burns. You might notice this will make mages burn skills overpowered because their attack power is much higher than a raiders, which is completely true. A good way to balance that is to remove the initial damage from those skills (fire ring, hellfire, mana burn).



Mage Burns:

Fire Ring: This skill currently has an 8 second duration, is single target and is equip wiht 15%? defense down. It is also the slowest casting of the mage burn skills.

I think this skill should keep it's initial damage and skill power, however the burn duration should be reduced to say 3 seconds.

Hellfire: This is the 2nd job single target burn. It has 95% success and lasts 12 seconds.

, Reduce the duration to 10 seconds (or leave it at 12), and remove the skill damage and increase the success to 100%. If you are fighting in 8k attack power it will do 9240 damage by the time the skill is over. That may seem like alot, but previously the attack would have done 6k damage from the burn plus the initial skill damage which would turn out roughly the same.

Mana Burn: This skill currently has 90% success, is single target damage but has an aoe status of 6m range. It also comes along with 30% defense down and lasts 10 seconds.

Reduce the duration to 8 seconds and remove the skill damage. Increase the aoe radius to 10m range. The cooldown could probably be increased on this one by maybe 5 seconds.



Raider Burns:

Flame Hawk: 8 second duration, 8m range, 100% success slow casting.



Plasma Falcon: 5 second duration, 12m range, 100% success, slow casting

I think this skill should remain the same, as the duration is already short and the casting time is among the slowest of all raider skills.

Phoenix Slash: 8 second duration, 90%? success, quick casting, and short cooldown.

The main problem with this skill I beleive is the short (4 second) cooldown, which allows the user to keep the opponnent burned the entire fight. The cooldown should be increased to be longer than the duration because of that, 11 seconds maybe?

Flame Slash: 10 second duration, 95%? success, quick casting.

Similar to phoenix slash, this skills cooldown is much shorter than the duration, which should be increased slightly higher than the duration. 14 seconds perhaps?





Poison skills are similar to burn skills although slightly different. They have a different dps value dependant upon the skills, although all of them are weaker than burns however usually last longer. Poison skills may not be as overpowered and may not need changing, however they still share some similarities with burn skills flaws. Practically useless in pvm at high levels, and somewhat overpowered in low level pvp. However if anything, I think poison status could be based off of accuracy instead of attack power.


Possibly: (1.1(accuracy)) + (2(level)) x .15

If you have 2000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison a monster it will deal 396 damage per second from the poison.
If you have 2000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison another player it will deal 198 damage per second from the poison.

If you have 4000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison a monster it will deal 726 damage per second from the poison.
If you have 4000 accuracy at level 220, and you Poison another player it will deal 363 damage per second from the poison.


If you have 400 accuracy at level 50, and you Poison a monster it will deal 81 damage per second from the poison.
If you have 400 accuracy at level 50, and you Poison another player it will deal 41 damage per second from the poison.


Poison Skills:

Raider/Hawker:

Poison Knife: 18 second duration 80% success, 15m range quick casting speed. I'm unsure about the damage per second as The Rose Compendium does not list it, however this is one of the weakest poison skills.

the duration should be lowered possibly from 10-15 seconds

Venom Knife: 30 second duration, 75% success, 20m range, quick casting speed, also comeswith 15% aspeed down, this poison deals 300 damage per second.

The duration should be lowered, possibly from 10-15 seconds


Scout:

Poison Arrow: 15 second duration, 88% success, I am unsure of the current damage per second on this poison.

This skill could probably stay the same, if anything it could be changed to 100% success.


Bourgious:

Toxic Shot: 26 second duration, 100% success, I am unsure the current damage per second on this poison, slow casting.

The duration should be lowered, possibly from 12-15 seconds.

Artisan:

Poison Shot: 30 second duration, 99% success, 150 damage per second from poison, slow casting.

Because of artisans high accuracy this skills duration would need to be lowered. An 8-10 second duration should suffice.


Acid High explosive: approximately 30 second duration, unkown success (50% maybe?), 300 damage per second from poison.

[i]Because of artisans high accuracy this skills duration would need to be lowered, however it should be higher than poison shot because of the lower success. Increase the success to 75% and decrease the duration from 10-15 seconds.







Tldr; Make burn statuses based off your attack power and poison based off of your accuracy. Skills would be adjusted slightly to compensate.

This can also add a bit more depth to builds for characters with damage over time skills.

-.-, so you are suggesting adding more damage to the burn?lol...

Edited by Irtofu, 30 December 2010 - 03:08 AM.

[Irtofu]

also, things to be addressed cloak and stealth glitch and also client and server alignment which makes decloaking almost impossible sometimes and also there is a problem with people being able to stealth close to npcs where they practically cant die until their stealth runs or you have to glitch near the npc to decloak.

Edited by Irtofu, 30 December 2010 - 03:13 AM.