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Shadow Items Thoughts and a Statement


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#1 Campitor

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:17 PM

As a handful of you may have noticed today there was a bit of an uproar regarding the penetration shadow item set and the attempt to implement it today.

 

Why we tried to implement it: Currently our stock of new headgears and back items everyone has seen before. The shadow items were suggested to us as something new that the community hasn't been exposed to yet.

 

Why we decided to not implement it: Player feedback and experience from other servers. The iRO general community has historically been against implementing MVP level items as cash shop items. As the item was implemented on kRO; the penetration shadow set would have been far more powerful than the samurai spectre card. Behind the scenes we were discussing and examining the set function calls to see just how bad it would have been.

 

Samurai Spectre's def bypass call specifies normal monsters EX: Those monsters that are not MVP

Penetration Shadow set bypass call is based upon monster race. EX: All Demon Race Monsters.

 

It appears than that the Penetration set would then out class the Samurai Spectre card which is even worse as we do not believe that selling MVP cards in the item mall is a healthy option. There needs to be something for players to work towards.

 

One discussion we are having with the studio is the future of the Cash Shop and all the feedback I have read tonight will be discussed tonight with the studio contact.

 

 

Now for the argument between old  and new players. I want to address this specifically. First you are all equal. There is no special player that is better than the rest. I want you all to have fun and enjoy the game, and I need to be working towards that goal. Not just by having a campaign to squash Auto Pot and No Delay with the studio but by also making sure that your concerns and needs are being met with content updates in the future.

 

We take all player feedback on the forums we do listen to you, and I understand that some of you are disappointed that the set didn't go in. What I would like is to discuss what gear needs to be made to bridge that gap between Poring Card and MVP Card.

 

What effects do you want to see in future updates or item mall items?

What do you need to grow as a character?

How would you suggest this item be obtained?

 

For example: Something we may suggest to the studio:

 

Card

Drops from the Knight in Geffen Magic Tournament 

Effect. 3% Chance while attacking to Penetrate DEF at 100% for 3 seconds.

 

 

 

So please let us know what all players need to make the game more fun, obviously we can't promise that any or all suggestions can be made but we most certainly want to hear what you have to say.


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#2 Jezs69

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:22 PM

No need to change, just implement same as KRO.
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#3 Toxn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:29 PM

Shadow gears typically have no drawbacks in usage, when compared to gears that might be required for the same effect.

There are plenty of shadow sets that exist on kRO that we could still use, off the very top of my head there are sets which grant skill usage of Greed, Teleport, Heal, Hiding, Cloak3 (if I recall correctly), and other skills like such. With the drawback of increasing the SP usage of those skills by a lot (reduced per refine as a refine bonus).

Or there are shadow sets that directly make builds more viable, such as the class shadow sets. While these ones are a little more overpowered, they aren't breaking the entire server right off the bat.

Or what about new shadow set ideas? Recently there was a discussion on removing the hard coded change iRO has to Bowling Bash. How about a shadow set/gear that reverts Bowling Bash to it's kRO equivalent, and disable it's effects in WoE and WoETE?

There are also plenty of other things that we could have implemented that aren't specifically shadow gears. There are plenty of headgears that are server has yet to receive, and majority of the time when we do receive them, they are thrown out as contest rewards instead. Hell, Thor even has the Mad Bunny shield which has an awesome sprite, but is currently broken. What about fixing that and releasing it?

Another thing kRO has is a much more diverse costume headgear enchanting. Every once in a while they will remove the list of what headgears can be enchanted in Malangdo, and change them to a new set of headgears. There are also more enchantment types we have yet to receive from this as well. Though some of the enchants we don't have yet are... questionable. Like fixed cast reduction -0.3, -0.5 and -1s.

But on the topic of shadow gears, I would like to see the Greed, Tele, Hiding, Heal, etc sets reach here before anything too overpowered comes.
 


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#4 beef123

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:29 PM

do it like KRO those who cannot adapt will leave


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#5 Toxn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:31 PM

That is a pretty horrible mentality.


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#6 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:33 PM

Costume Golden Wings.

btw, the sprite is on the client for a long time now

Blitz Shadow Set :)


Edited by Ashuckel, 09 June 2016 - 06:34 PM.

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#7 ZeroTigress

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:34 PM

I personally want to see shadow gears wiped entirely because they're a piss poor way to balance the job classes when kRO should be doing that straight up. The costume system when it was originally implemented was okay because people have always wanted a way to cover up gears that they don't like but must wear in order to compete with other players. Now kRO has gone and destroyed that by changing the costume system into a destructive feature which allow players to wear two sets of gear at the same time. They essentially made an already unbalanced game even more unbalanced and now they're expecting players to balance the job classes themselves through the use of shadow gears. It's ridiculous.
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#8 Campitor

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:35 PM

No need to change, just implement same as KRO.

 

 

do it like KRO those who cannot adapt will leave

When we have inquired about aligning all versions of Ragnarok Online together in order to streamline the update process. kRO has told us they intend that although each version follow the same general update path, they will believe that it is best if there are unique customization to each version in order to meet the realities of their communities.


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#9 Nirvanna21

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:36 PM

Blitz Shadow Set would be nice. Falcon Love 2016

 

I mean the one that increases Blitz Beat damage <3


Edited by Nirvanna21, 10 June 2016 - 07:02 PM.

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#10 Doomsquare

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:37 PM

Here's my thought,

 

If you're going to implement the new instances that KRO has, implement the gears too to help players with the new instances. It makes no sense for MVPs to have ridiculous amounts of HP and our weapons available are outdated.

 

I'm one of the players in favor of this set. 


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#11 Jezs69

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:41 PM

When we have inquired about aligning all versions of Ragnarok Online together in order to streamline the update process. kRO has told us they intend that although each version follow the same general update path, they will believe that it is best if there are unique customization to each version in order to meet the realities of their communities.


Ok, understood.

However, that should not apply to Shadow sets.

I understand about IRO having gramps and not having the Paramarket and not having the Sealed MVP cards but my opinion is that IRO should have Shadow sets same as KRO.

Here's my thought,

If you're going to implement the new instances that KRO has, implement the gears too to help players with the new instances. It makes no sense for MVPs to have ridiculous amounts of HP and our weapons available are outdated.

I'm one of the players in favor of this set.


+1 to this!
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#12 Jezs69

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:45 PM

I will agree to no Shadow Sets IF the mechanics in IRO are the same as JRO.

But since it's not, please make shadow sets the same as KRO.
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#13 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:45 PM

leaving kRO aside now, can we get jRO stuff? They have so MUCH more content diversity. Instances, gears,etc


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#14 Campitor

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:45 PM

I will agree to no Shadow Sets IF the mechanics in IRO are the same as JRO.

But since it's not, please make shadow sets the same as KRO.

What about the jRO mechanics do you like?


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#15 Irreparable

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:47 PM

When we have inquired about aligning all versions of Ragnarok Online together in order to streamline the update process. kRO has told us they intend that although each version follow the same general update path, they will believe that it is best if there are unique customization to each version in order to meet the realities of their communities.

 

kRO has finally acknowledged that different regions have different playerbases and as such focus on different things? Pinch me, I'm dreaming.

 

Actual Feedback:

 

If we have to go the route of Shadow Gear, I would love to see Shadow Gears that make more diverse builds viable as well as classes (looking at you, Extended Super Novice).

 

For example: Shadow Gear that gives ESN Magnificat (something these guys really want and need) + unqiue skills that aren't just copy pasted 2nd base job skills, would be something interesting to see.

 

However, since these gears would have a substantial impact upon the class, I would prefer an acquisition via an ingame quest chain, rather than the cash shop. Money could still be made through the usual +x refine bonuses, but the acquisition itself should be made available to everyone.


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#16 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:47 PM

And when i said on the mainteance thread earlier about going back on your word about mvp shadow gears, im pretty sure that post was in the Unfrozen Set pinned thread, buuut.... thread got nuked :v


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#17 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:51 PM

What about the jRO mechanics do you like?

http://ro.doddlercon.com/home/?p=124


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#18 ZeroTigress

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:52 PM

When we have inquired about aligning all versions of Ragnarok Online together in order to streamline the update process. kRO has told us they intend that although each version follow the same general update path, they will believe that it is best if there are unique customization to each version in order to meet the realities of their communities.


So they want officials to remain catered to their communities by making them years behind in client updates.

I'm inclined to think they don't really know what they're doing. Last I checked, there's no official that wants to be lacking in CLIENT updates. Nothing matters if we don't have essential MMORPG features like a proper mail system and guild warehouse.
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#19 Jezs69

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:54 PM

What about the jRO mechanics do you like?

Their Physical attack formula and their Matk formula.

I also like that only their 3rd job skills have fixed cast times.

What Ashukel linked basically.

Edited by Jezs69, 09 June 2016 - 06:56 PM.

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#20 KamiKali

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:55 PM

First, I don't like Shadow Gears, but it is what it is.

 

Wealth Gap:

I do believe that there needs be gears that is decently farmable and good enough to bridge gaps between the poor. There are some instances that drop such gears such as:

Bakonawa Tattoo / Other tattoos - instance only and 1b/150-200m

Black Rosary - Guild Dungeon 300m

Geffen Magic Tournament gears - Farm coins to get gear, most gears cost 100-200m

Malangdo Enchanting

Mora Enchanting

???

 

All these things are farmable and are methods to make money and are accessible to every player. But like any economy, there are the consumers and producers. Let's assume consumers are the rich and producers are those that farm gears and other stuff.

 

Gears that are easier to farm will be farmed by newer players who can't play harder endgame content yet due to gear discrepancy (this is fine). There are different tiers and levels of game play, in a way obtaining certain skill sets, levels and gears is like unlocking levels of endgame. However, the more certain gears are farmed, the cheaper they become because there is no cycling out. This is due to one thing. Safe to 7 certificates. Eventually farming for certain items do not become worth it, even though the gear itself may still be good. For example, almost all the ET gears, valk armors, variants, naght swords, valk shield, etc. We needed to have NPCs like Eve Natalia and Mimic to cycle these things out because you know that there is no cycling out of gear right now and 90% of the gears in game is not worth farming.

 

My proposal is that Safe to 7 Certs should be completely removed from the cash shop, from groove packs and lucky boxes. It is fine to keep certs being produced from the Mimic Eat Gear and Eve Natalia.

 

Safe Certificates are the primary reason that there is no "cycling out" of gears. Most of the equippable items in game have become obsolete and the existing Cash Shop gears that are exponentially better than others. The quantity of Safe Certs are making the end game gear too cheap for it to be considered even a goal to be able to obtain. Mid and End game gears that come from PVM should be something one should work towards, especially a decently upgraded one. Upgrading anything has become using Certs to +7. Many of the newer players I've met don't even know who Suhmi is. There should be gears cycling out of the system so that there is room for an actual supply and demand market. Right now there is just too much supply of anything from Endless Tower, anything from MVPs.

 

If there were fewer certs, they would be used a lot more sparingly so that people would take the risk of using Normal Ori/Elu or Enriched Elu/Ori on lower-mid tier items. This would cause more breakage. Breakage would mean more of this gear is bought and attempted to be upgraded. The prices of these more "obsolete" gears would increase.

 

Many view price increases as a bad thing, but it actually is not. Let me explain.

 

Price increases of lower to mid tier items that are obtainable via easier to kill MVPs or via normal mob hunting allow the lower levels to obtain zeny easier. This gives incentives for poorer and starting players to actually hunt monsters to obtain x weapon or x shield to sell. Selling the more "obsolete" items would also be easier since more would be breaking, then bought up to try to be upgraded again. This sort of lower tier inflation would not affect higher tier items since Certs would still be obtainable via eat gear. Cert prices may increase, but it'll always be obtainable by anyone because of the constant availability of Level 3,4 weapons, shields, armors and headgears from monster drops. (i.e look at prices of morrigane helms, goibne's set, bone helm, muffler, pauldron, stone bucklers, etc).

 

MVP Cards and Gods prices won't be affected. These items are untouchable to this sort of inflation because they would only be touched by actual zeny decrease/increase and supply and demand. All sales and purchases are accountable due to the sparity of god items and MVPs compared to the rest of the gears. Additionally, there's no "decrease in circulation" of gods and mvps aside from accounts being banned or players stop playing. Causally, a price increase of low tier and mid tier items would start to close the gap between poor players and rich players. The eventual inflation would allow those players to be able to obtain harder to obtain items. Harder to obtain items would actually be more expensive so that middle class players have a chance of getting god/mvp tier items.

 

There is a huge disparity between players who own 10mil and those who own 10bil. And it's nearly impossible to get to that point of earning 10bil without spending a lot of real money on this game. Before certs, hunting items was extremely rewarding so becoming rich through MVPing was extremely possible. Now, it is really difficult unless you're lucky.

 

 

I know in a way this may be taking away certain "revenue" from the cash shop.

Cash Shop Revenue

 

Many game models follow a vanity cash shop model and it's been successful. Costumes, dyes, new hairs, etc appeal to every player, not just girls. If new costumes and certain headgears were cycled in with temporary effects - think Alora Hat Box that gave increased EXP. For example, every two weeks a new Alora box comes in with 1 new costume and 3-4 Alora costumes (You can +8 a hat and make that into a costume), and make sure that the old costumes lose their exp effects (or whatever effects), then people will keep buying these boxes for its effect and as a collectable.

Other things such as back wings, more different types of mounts, even costume gear that lets you transform into something else that is only purchasable in the cash shop (then lose its effect) would be a model that could be successful.

 

 

@ Doomsquare: New instances and MVPs that have tons of HP. Have you done Demon Temple, Faceworm Queen? Do you not notice that you get PENALIZED for doing too much damage, when the MVPs full heal, or heal like 10% when you deal over a damage threshold? kRO wants instance play to be longer yet are putting gears that increase damage. #logic.


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#21 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:56 PM

Hi Camp

 

1. Nobody buys Samurai Spectre for MVPing. That being said, the set will serve a different purpose. Way way way different purpose since the set also cant be used in WOE/PVP scenario. I dont think it is fair to compare those two, this is what makes this set different from other MVP sets which other has overlapping purpose.  SS for PVPing/WOE, the other for MVPing

 

2. The shadow set is an official item made by kRO and not some item customized from P servers

 

3. Saying that shadow gears have no drawbacks in usage or is a free slot is already invalid since we have already a lot of choices. People need to start thinking that shadow gears are part of the equipment set-up just like how we look armors and garments  rather than just looking at it as a costume plainly bonus. Ofcourse, WP needs to introduce more shadow gears implemented for players to feel that using this set means they cant use the other better set. (i dont know how to express it clearly but you'll get the gist of it )

 

4. This is no way game breaking and will beef up PVM/MVP competition scenario 

 

5. Surely this shadow set will scale with the future updates

 

.................................................................................................................................................

6. If the tempest shadow set or what was it called is included in this discussion. damn it ned to be implemented in order for the underdog warlocks to compete in MVP scenario like for real!!


Edited by CadburyChocolate, 09 June 2016 - 07:03 PM.

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#22 Toxn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:56 PM

Transcended Class Shadow Sets:

Remove fixed cast time
Increase variable cast time of all skills by 1 second (or 100%). (All skills with cast at least)

Cast for trans and below is now more PreRE like. Would actually be interesting to see tbh.


Edited by Toxn, 09 June 2016 - 06:56 PM.

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#23 Jezs69

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:11 PM

Transcended Class Shadow Sets:

Remove fixed cast time
Increase variable cast time of all skills by 1 second (or 100%). (All skills with cast at least)

Cast for trans and below is now more PreRE like. Would actually be interesting to see tbh.


+1 to this
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#24 Toxn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:13 PM

Nevermind then


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#25 Doomsquare

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:20 PM

@ Doomsquare: New instances and MVPs that have tons of HP. Have you done Demon Temple, Faceworm Queen? Do you not notice that you get PENALIZED for doing too much damage, when the MVPs full heal, or heal like 10% when you deal over a damage threshold? kRO wants instance play to be longer yet are putting gears that increase damage. #logic.

 

Only FW here, done many many times, but yeah.. I have pretty decent gears and knowledge of the instance to reach the point of doing too much damage. Imagine people without over refine gears above +9.

Lets talk about the general mass of players here, not the top 1% of the game. How many guilds can dish out  81m+55m+80m+120m damage in 1 hour.

 

Imagine after a mid TI party (complete strangers), they can proceed to ET, and complete it. Ain't that just fantastic.

 

Heck even if u give a MoT card to everyone, not everyone will know how to use it effectively.


Edited by Doomsquare, 09 June 2016 - 08:25 PM.

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