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Shadow Items Thoughts and a Statement


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#26 leiand

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:22 PM

Shadow sets are generally Overpowered.

From the physical set, magical set, unfrozen set, phen set, malicious set, demi set.

And it states its OP-ness from the prices alone upon the market, hell its even more expensive than normal farm-able gears.

Those are already replacing alot of gears and cards.

The brown shadow normal set was ok and all good, along with costumes with enchants.

 

And since WP started the shadow sets, you guys should continue it.

You already filled the server up with those OP gears.

 

And hope you all dont do like what you all normally does and play for the WoE general ppl and neglecting the PvM side of the game.


Edited by leiand, 09 June 2016 - 07:25 PM.

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#27 inspectortrix

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:25 PM

Sprite changing shadow set. I was thinking about the jro sprites for genetic and guillotine crosses are costumes
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#28 Nirvanna21

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:27 PM

Only FW here, done many many times, but yeah.. I have pretty decent gears and knowledge of the instance to reach the point of doing too much damage. Imagine people without over refine gears above +9.

Lets talk about the general mass of players here, not the top 1% of the game.

Imagine after a mid TI party (complete strangers), they can proceed to ET, and complete it. Ain't that just fantastic.

 

Heck even if u give a MoT card to everyone, not everyone will know how to use it effectively.

 

Why mention the last portion of your statement when you are in support of the set?

 

You are completely correct in that not everyone will know how to use it. That is because gear is an extension to skill. I am pretty sure it has been proven that you can do ET even with Eden Gears.

 

You could argue that it was because they were experienced players, but that IS the point of ET, to progress a little more each time until you beat the tower.

 

This set does little to nothing to help people who are new and inexperienced and more to ruin the end game.


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#29 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:31 PM

All these things are farmable and are methods to make money and are accessible to every player. But like any economy, there are the consumers and producers. Let's assume consumers are the rich and producers are those that farm gears and other stuff.

 

Gears that are easier to farm will be farmed by newer players who can't play harder endgame content yet due to gear discrepancy (this is fine). There are different tiers and levels of game play, in a way obtaining certain skill sets, levels and gears is like unlocking levels of endgame. However, the more certain gears are farmed, the cheaper they become because there is no cycling out. This is due to one thing. Safe to 7 certificates. Eventually farming for certain items do not become worth it, even though the gear itself may still be good. For example, almost all the ET gears, valk armors, variants, naght swords, valk shield, etc. We needed to have NPCs like Eve Natalia and Mimic to cycle these things out because you know that there is no cycling out of gear right now and 90% of the gears in game is not worth farming.

 

Except that the easier ones to farm are farmed by the bots and not by the newer players. And newer players are "farmed" by those so called producers by engaging them in RMT/"WPE"/WPE transactions and that these "producers" make more money from the game than the CMs/GMs working for the game. Well i agree with what you have said about safe certs


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#30 Kadelia

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:39 PM

I am making a specific thread for this, because it will be buried in the maintenance notes and will never be touched on.

The GMs have made the most pathetic move they could, with implementation of the Penetration Shadow Set. http://www.playragna...ail.aspx?id=396

For those of you who don't know, the penetration set bypasses all DEF of a specific race, when worn together. Essentially it is a Samurai Spectre with no drawbacks whatsoever. It is one of the most overpowered Shadow Sets kRO has ever created.

In the past, iRO has promised that this set would never reach our servers, due to the hate by many on the sets existence. They have now gone back on that word. It has only been a few minutes since the announcement, and as a PVM Guild Leader I have already seen several players contemplating quitting when maintenance is over.

As a guild leader, all I can really ask you is this: How much do you plan to kill reason to play your game? You already made a lot of players shun away from WoE with the implementation of the Unfrozen Shadow Set. Some of which while not having any interest in WoE to begin with, have quit on principle alone due to how poorly the discussion on the set was managed. And now you decide to implement the worst shadow set you possibly could for PVM?

Give me, and other PVM Guild Leaders a reason to continue giving a crap about your company and your game.

Shadow gears typically have no drawbacks in usage, when compared to gears that might be required for the same effect.

 
Toxn I find this arguments fallacious. By your definition, Exorciser, Weeder Knife, etc, are as powerful as Samurai Spectre because they can bypass the DEF of an enemy by 100%. Samurai Spectre is better than them for the simple fact it works on all races at once. Most leveling areas have multiple enemy races stacked together, making your race-specific weapon only sueful against half the monsters. Samurai Spectre is more versatile, and as such, better. The card's rarity allows it to be a bit better. But good game design is that rarity can't balance power. This worked fine early on in RO's development. The MVP cards weren't just blatantly more powerful, they had drawbacks to offset it. Such as Eddga and Dark Lord lowering max HP or Lady Tanee lowering HP, or Tao Gunka nearly zeroing out your DEF. So its normal to see the MVP card do something the easier to get items can't do, but still at a drawback.
 
The shadow sets carry the same limitation as the weapons with the baked in effect: 1 race.
 
Additionally they carry a second limitation: you can't wear other shadow weapon/accessories.

 

Third limitation: Doesn't work on players that way samurai does. Again, way more versatile to have a samurai spectre.
 
Part of your fallacious arguments is that you're conveniently setting aside how the shadow layer works. They are not bonus items. They are a new layer of character rebalancing kRO decided to go with. They've even officially stated this. Rather than change skills or mechanics they want to rebalance gameplay with equipment. Shadow gears are their layer where you modularly swap what you want to be good at in or out. The baseline powerlevel, whether you like it or not, is that there is some gear here doing +10% atk or +4 aspd, etc. In this case you're dropping the ATK% or +ASPD for the defense piercing, just like back in the day how you dropped a 20% card from your level 4 weapon's typical power range in exchange for the baked in def piercing effect.
 

There are plenty of shadow sets that exist on kRO that we could still use, off the very top of my head there are sets which grant skill usage of Greed, Teleport, Heal, Hiding, Cloak3 (if I recall correctly), and other skills like such. With the drawback of increasing the SP usage of those skills by a lot (reduced per refine as a refine bonus).

Or there are shadow sets that directly make builds more viable, such as the class shadow sets. While these ones are a little more overpowered, they aren't breaking the entire server right off the bat.

Or what about new shadow set ideas? Recently there was a discussion on removing the hard coded change iRO has to Bowling Bash. How about a shadow set/gear that reverts Bowling Bash to it's kRO equivalent, and disable it's effects in WoE and WoETE?

There are also plenty of other things that we could have implemented that aren't specifically shadow gears. There are plenty of headgears that are server has yet to receive, and majority of the time when we do receive them, they are thrown out as contest rewards instead. Hell, Thor even has the Mad Bunny shield which has an awesome sprite, but is currently broken. What about fixing that and releasing it?

Another thing kRO has is a much more diverse costume headgear enchanting. Every once in a while they will remove the list of what headgears can be enchanted in Malangdo, and change them to a new set of headgears. There are also more enchantment types we have yet to receive from this as well. Though some of the enchants we don't have yet are... questionable. Like fixed cast reduction -0.3, -0.5 and -1s.

But on the topic of shadow gears, I would like to see the Greed, Tele, Hiding, Heal, etc sets reach here before anything too overpowered comes.


I think this is a fair compromise that they can work their way through the other shadow gears kRO made. But the penetration sets are an elephant in the room we cannot leave ignored.


Edited by Kadelia, 09 June 2016 - 07:44 PM.

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#31 Jezs69

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:42 PM

Hi Camp

1. Nobody buys Samurai Spectre for MVPing. That being said, the set will serve a different purpose. Way way way different purpose since the set also cant be used in WOE/PVP scenario. I dont think it is fair to compare those two, this is what makes this set different from other MVP sets which other has overlapping purpose. SS for PVPing/WOE, the other for MVPing

2. The shadow set is an official item made by kRO and not some item customized from P servers

3. Saying that shadow gears have no drawbacks in usage or is a free slot is already invalid since we have already a lot of choices. People need to start thinking that shadow gears are part of the equipment set-up just like how we look armors and garments rather than just looking at it as a costume plainly bonus. Ofcourse, WP needs to introduce more shadow gears implemented for players to feel that using this set means they cant use the other better set. (i dont know how to express it clearly but you'll get the gist of it )

4. This is no way game breaking and will beef up PVM/MVP competition scenario

5. Surely this shadow set will scale with the future updates

.................................................................................................................................................
6. If the tempest shadow set or what was it called is included in this discussion. damn it ned to be implemented in order for the underdog warlocks to compete in MVP scenario like for real!!



Everything on your post is GOLD. I could not have said it better myself.
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#32 Toxn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:44 PM

Comparing it to things like Excorsist and Weeder and the like is even more insane than my comparisons. They are literally useless weapons because they offer nothing other than DEF bypassing. Throwing the effect off to a shadow set, while maintaining all the damage you have from keeping your weapon and it's other amazing effects is a far cry away from comparing SS to SS effect weapons.


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#33 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:44 PM

 
Toxn I find this arguments fallacious. By your definition, Exorciser, Weeder Knife, etc, are as powerful as Samurai Spectre because they can bypass the DEF of an enemy by 100%. Samurai Spectre is better than them for the simple fact it works on all races at once. Most leveling areas have multiple enemy races stacked together, making your race-specific weapon only sueful against half the monsters. Samurai Spectre is more versatile, and as such, better. The card's rarity allows it to be a bit better. But good game design is that rarity can't balance power. This worked fine early on in RO's development. The MVP cards weren't just blatantly more powerful, they had drawbacks to offset it. Such as Eddga and Dark Lord lowering max HP or Lady Tanee lowering HP, or Tao Gunka nearly zeroing out your DEF. So its normal to see the MVP card do something the easier to get items can't do, but still at a drawback.
 
The shadow sets carry the same limitation as the weapons with the baked in effect: 1 race.
 
Additionally they carry a second limitation: you can't wear other shadow weapon/accessories.
 
Part of your fallacious arguments is that you're conveniently setting aside how the shadow layer works. They are not bonus items. They are a new layer of character rebalancing kRO decided to go with. They've even officially stated this. Rather than change skills or mechanics they want to rebalance gameplay with equipment. Shadow gears are their layer where you modularly swap what you want to be good at in or out. The baseline powerlevel, whether you like it or not, is that there is some gear here doing +10% atk or +4 aspd, etc. In this case you're dropping the ATK% or +ASPD for the defense piercing, just like back in the day how you dropped a 20% card from your level 4 weapon's typical power range in exchange for the baked in def piercing effect.
 


I think this is a fair compromise that they can work their way through the other shadow gears kRO made. But the penetration sets are an elephant in the room we cannot leave ignored.

Please no! they will remove exorciser and weeder knife!!!! Why did u tell them! hahahahah!

Implement penetration shadow gear already please!


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#34 Nirvanna21

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:46 PM

 
Toxn I find this arguments fallacious. By your definition, Exorciser, Weeder Knife, etc, are as powerful as Samurai Spectre because they can bypass the DEF of an enemy by 100%. Samurai Spectre is better than them for the simple fact it works on all races at once. Most leveling areas have multiple enemy races stacked together, making your race-specific weapon only sueful against half the monsters. Samurai Spectre is more versatile, and as such, better. The card's rarity allows it to be a bit better. But good game design is that rarity can't balance power. This worked fine early on in RO's development. The MVP cards weren't just blatantly more powerful, they had drawbacks to offset it. Such as Eddga and Dark Lord lowering max HP or Lady Tanee lowering HP, or Tao Gunka nearly zeroing out your DEF. So its normal to see the MVP card do something the easier to get items can't do, but still at a drawback.
 
The shadow sets carry the same limitation as the weapons with the baked in effect: 1 race.
 
Additionally they carry a second limitation: you can't wear other shadow weapon/accessories.
 
Part of your fallacious arguments is that you're conveniently setting aside how the shadow layer works. They are not bonus items. They are a new layer of character rebalancing kRO decided to go with. They've even officially stated this. Rather than change skills or mechanics they want to rebalance gameplay with equipment. Shadow gears are their layer where you modularly swap what you want to be good at in or out. The baseline powerlevel, whether you like it or not, is that there is some gear here doing +10% atk or +4 aspd, etc. In this case you're dropping the ATK% or +ASPD for the defense piercing.
 


I think this is a fair compromise that they can work their way through the other shadow gears kRO made. But the penetration sets are an elephant in the room we cannot leave ignored.

 

I am gonna argue with you on this one slightly Kaddy,

 

One race at a time is not a limitation, gear swapping is already prevalent and easy as -_- to do.

 

Your second limitation doesn't hold up either. If you had a choice between 100% perma piercing versus a little extra damage/life or uninterruptible cast or unfrozen immunity... what would you honestly choose?

 

It is by far not a fair compromise in this instance.


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#35 beef123

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:52 PM

That is a pretty horrible mentality.

 

Only in your opinion which you seem to think > everyone else's. These items were straight from KRO which means IRO usually follows up.

 

If your guild can't compete with pay 2 win pvm players then go play another game. Seeing the responses here most people don't even agree with your perspective. And the forums is just a very small portion of the entire IRO population.

 

You have to have new content to draw new players in if they can't compete they would just leave. The server would be just consist of whiny old veterans who want everyone to spend 10 years hunting for a virtual item.


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#36 Kadelia

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:52 PM

I am gonna argue with you on this one slightly Kaddy,

 

One race at a time is not a limitation, gear swapping is already prevalent and easy as -_- to do.

 

Your second limitation doesn't hold up either. If you had a choice between 100% perma piercing versus a little extra damage/life or uninterruptible cast or unfrozen immunity... what would you honestly choose?

 

It is by far not a fair compromise in this instance.

 

Umm, it is. What is your basis to say its not a fair compromise?

 

Exactly how much damage per second is def penetration adding to dragon's breath? Guillotine Fist? Acid Bomb? Cart Cannon?

 

None.

 

Just about the only things it buffs are arrow storm, performers, mechanics, and melee builds (that already have icepick, brionac, and some 2h swords that rock). Do you hate performers and mechanics or something?


Edited by Kadelia, 09 June 2016 - 07:54 PM.

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#37 Nirvanna21

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:53 PM

Umm, it is. What is your basis to say its not a fair compromise?

 

Exactly how much damage per second is def penetration adding to dragon's breath? Guillotine Fist? Acid Bomb? Cart Cannon?

 

None.

 

Just about the only things it buffs are arrow storm, performers, mechanics, and melee builds. Do you hate performers and mechanics or something?

 

What's the point of a mechanic if you are offering to sell it away.


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#38 leiand

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:54 PM

They are literally useless weapons because they offer nothing other than DEF bypassing.

Throwing the effect off to a shadow set, while maintaining all the damage you have from keeping your weapon and it's other amazing effects is a far cry away from comparing SS to SS effect weapons.

 

I agree with that, and thats why shadows should have remained as the brown free 2+ stat set.

A unfrozen bryn.

A Unfro gloom of * ele armor*

 

But you ent complaining about those in the past.

 

These things are way OP and its not the penetration set only.

 

PPl already accepted those, from physical set to malicious set.

And all/most  replaces some sort of card effect or gear effect.

 

Why bother now?

I was totally against any shadows from the start.

 

 


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#39 Tovenaar

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:56 PM

stop doing controversial updates "following a update line" and just fix what IS already bug like stasis, deluge, EV (if u are following kro line EV is enable everyware), skill buffs, etc.


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#40 WarlockFier

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:01 PM

Only in your opinion which you seem to think > everyone else's. These items were straight from KRO which means IRO usually follows up.

 

If your guild can't compete with pay 2 win pvm players then go play another game. Seeing the responses here most people don't even agree with your perspective. And the forums is just a very small portion of the entire IRO population.

 

You have to have new content to draw new players in if they can't compete they would just leave. The server would be just consist of whiny old veterans who want everyone to spend 10 years hunting for a virtual item.

 

You sound like you have a lot of beef with 'our guild'. This thread is suppose to discuss about shadow items, it would be nice to stick at that and keep the discussion and debates constructive than personal attacks.

 

And calling others who have been supporting the game 10+ years whiny makes you more of a whiner yourself.


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#41 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:05 PM

It is by far not a fair compromise in this instance.

IMO, it would offer more to the underdog classes (both physcal and magical penetration sets) than benefiting Genes and Suras in dungeon instances.


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#42 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:07 PM

If your asking what to implement we can talk about this link right here.

 

 

Also As for cash shop incentives we can also remove food from kafra shop and let people make food once again from lvl 1- lvl 10

and also never place Genetic brewing items in kafra again ^.^

 

If possible we should request something from JRO as well.

 

I have played KRO server, IRO server and JRO server, and to be truthful Jro server is alot more spicey and exciting than kro. 

KRO has the updates and balance patches that they are taking their sweet time to give. So why not grab updates from JRO instead and only take the episodic updates and new chars from kro. That would put life back into this game in a light speed fashion. 


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#43 Sewasan

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:13 PM

Umm, it is. What is your basis to say its not a fair compromise?

 

Exactly how much damage per second is def penetration adding to dragon's breath? Guillotine Fist? Acid Bomb? Cart Cannon?

 

None.

 

Just about the only things it buffs are arrow storm, performers, mechanics, and melee builds (that already have icepick, brionac, and some 2h swords that rock). Do you hate performers and mechanics or something?

 

This is one of the things that actually i dont get on this update, it looks just like a hurry to put some gear but without any planning at all, if the idea behind this was actually power up all classes on iro, why dont you put tempest shadow gear also? btw, im a little bit esceptycal about putting both (mainly i will be against it) but is kind of lame that penetration set introduction only benefit a portion of the playable classes and improve some that are already top tier pmv ones.

 

I get that will benefit performers, mechs and suras (if there are pvm suras anyway) but if you plan to making everyone op, at least let your update look like there is a plan behind this. Anyway, im more with Toxn about the shadow set and i really think that the less op shadow gear will be better than the op one. BUUUT make you sure that any thing you implement helps all the playerbase not just a group of classes, just saying.
 


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#44 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:16 PM

Also what we should focus on is balance updates.

Trying to find whats best for the IRO server. If possible Id like to suggest a look through of both JRO and KRO balance updates and issues and choose which one will benefit us the IRO players and less headache for you the WP support GM's CM's etc. and then move forward from there.


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#45 Sewasan

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:23 PM

lol i've been reading the jRO differences from kRO and they look pretty cool, plus instances look a lot more challenging than kRO or iRO, i remember that i was super hyped about the 3rd class bio dungeon after seeing that jRO video, i mean Cecil using Arrow storm and wiping an entire party, or Celia using PW, was actually super cool and the coordination to not getting wiped was very important...then i saw a video of the same instance than kRO and...they were already soloing it...was...dissapointing :v...the mob dont do half the skills the jRO ones does :c


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#46 beef123

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:24 PM

You sound like you have a lot of beef with 'our guild'. This thread is suppose to discuss about shadow items, it would be nice to stick at that and keep the discussion and debates constructive than personal attacks.

 

And calling others who have been supporting the game 10+ years whiny makes you more of a whiner yourself.

 

I am sorry if you took what I said as personal attacks, but one of your guild made did try to virtually attack me though which now the thread is locked.

 

You have been playing 10 years?  and still can't see how IRO needs to progress then you need to rethink.

 

These sets doesn't effect WoE the only people who are against it are those that don't want any new players to be on the same playing field.

 

You also don't know the guaranteed outcome if they do implement it. If people are willing to pay for some easier pvm experience there really is no drawback to the company its a win win.


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#47 Nirvanna21

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:27 PM

IMO, it would offer more to the underdog classes (both physcal and magical penetration sets) than benefiting Genes and Suras in dungeon instances.

 

I have been discussing this with Kaddy for too long now, and she has yet to tell me how it is a fair compromise.

 

It would offer a surface fix and make two cards redundant for PVM and reduce a mechanic to nothing (which is apparently fine because kRO thinks so?)


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#48 Toxn

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:33 PM

The last few years, kRO has practically done nothing but the removal of the games mechanics through $$$.

100% Variable cast reductions

 

100% after cast delay reductions

+100% ASPD

Status Immunity shadow sets

Fixed cast reduction costume enchants.

MVP Shadow Sets

Specific skill cooldown removals through shadow sets.

They essentially said to themselves that PreRenewal was broken and needed a fix for the casual modern era, only to break the game further than the state Trans was in. All for the sake of milking everyone who didn't leave the game. The argument of "Why stop here, break the game all the way" is lost on me. It's like buying a brand new game you look forward to actually playing, and then just using a 100% save state before you actually even start playing the game.


Edited by Toxn, 09 June 2016 - 08:36 PM.

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#49 Doomsquare

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:40 PM

 

@ Doomsquare: New instances and MVPs that have tons of HP. Have you done Demon Temple, Faceworm Queen? Do you not notice that you get PENALIZED for doing too much damage, when the MVPs full heal, or heal like 10% when you deal over a damage threshold? kRO wants instance play to be longer yet are putting gears that increase damage. #logic.

 

Why mention the last portion of your statement when you are in support of the set?

 

You are completely correct in that not everyone will know how to use it. That is because gear is an extension to skill. I am pretty sure it has been proven that you can do ET even with Eden Gears.

 

You could argue that it was because they were experienced players, but that IS the point of ET, to progress a little more each time until you beat the tower.

 

This set does little to nothing to help people who are new and inexperienced and more to ruin the end game.

 
 
Actually, I've never been penalized when doing FW on my gx, only gene. Try doing the isle of bios, morse cave, and temple of demon god with a full party, no gods/mvps since that's how normal people do it.
 
There is a point where you can set realistic goals and complete it, but... temple of demon god, 1 hour. Assume you have no stringer friends, and none of your gears are beyond +9, mvp, gods. I think it'll be really really tough for your party to complete (unless you bring a gene with 10k bombs to burn)
 
Beauty of this set is that it allows GX (katar type) and Rangers to be more competitive in mvp-ing. I kinda got bored of my genes already.

Edited by Doomsquare, 09 June 2016 - 08:42 PM.

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#50 WarlockFier

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 08:42 PM

I am sorry if you took what I said as personal attacks, but one of your guild made did try to virtually attack me though which now the thread is locked.

 

You have been playing 10 years?  and still can't see how IRO needs to progress then you need to rethink.

 

These sets doesn't effect WoE the only people who are against it are those that don't want any new players to be on the same playing field.

 

You also don't know the guaranteed outcome if they do implement it. If people are willing to pay for some easier pvm experience there really is no drawback to the company its a win win.

 

Thanks for the apologies I guess. :u And sorry if one of our members attacked you too. These discussion does gets overheated and needs to cool down a bit.

 

I haven't been playing for 10 years. I have only played on iRO for 4 years. I'm nowhere near the vets at that time and was a total noob for my first year playing on iRO. But I am perfectly okay with catching up slowly on the game. I still got many wish list gears.

 

I do see the bigger picture from different perspective than narrowing on how Warpportal should be cashing in to stay afloat. I see flaws in their marketing and advertising efforts, and I do try to reach out to them to help improve things. I started on Art Events because those can go viral when artists post their arts in their own site/ blogs/ social media. That's only the tip of the ice berg. I actively research on other servers and see why they are doing well/ not doing well. Pservers and official servers alike. And I have seen the result of these MVP effect shadow set as nothing but negative. It negate a lot of items farmed from PVM activities and it continues to deteriorate them little by little.

 

And none of our protest has anything to do with us 'unable to compete' with paying PVM players. That's a poor assumption. My guild do buy a lot of Kafra shop items too. We have won against fully decked comps when we have 0 MVPs/ god items on us. So that argument is invalid. We continue to better ourselves however through playing the game very actively and work for the gears we wish to have.

 

Again, my proposal to Warpportal is that they really need to look at how to increase their player population rather than desperately try to fast cash out on their current players. It's actually driving a lot of current players away.


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