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Crimson Rod set vs Lacryma Stick set


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#26 fuyukikun

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 01:16 PM

depends on target mdef. on low mdef target, crimson will win.
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#27 Gabrielr04

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 01:25 PM

Doesn't it works kinda similar to Piercing Staff/Crimson Rod dmg calculation that was done before? Where 150+ mdef monsters were outshined by Piercing and 150- mdef monsters was better to use Crimson. Is this case equally or not even close? Just asking if someone has tried it :v

Using phone version, hadn't seen last message of Fuyuki XD

Edited by Gabrielr04, 20 February 2017 - 01:27 PM.

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#28 Kusanagisama

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 01:30 PM

Has anyone done an analysis of how much more damage you can do with the new Lacryma Stick/Pororoca Shoes combo, as compared to the old Crimson Rod/Temporal Boots combo? Does Lacryma Rod Combo always outshine Crimson Rod Combo in all circumstances? Just wondering.

 

There's a break-even point in MDEF, and it depends on other sources of MATK that you have. But in this case, it's likely that this break-even point is quite low, like... 50 or so. Yes, I'm too lazy to do the math. XD

 

Also, with this combo you can wear Celine Ribbon or Zaha Doll hat.


Edited by Kusanagisama, 20 February 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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#29 Ashuckel

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 01:56 PM

It will depend on each and every target mdef and results will vary a lot. Multiple targets having multiple even points.

Celine Kimi for example has a stupidly high mdef to begin with, and as known that mdef is still very penalizing even at low numbers, the even point will be very high.

The least mdef the target has, the least penetration you need to break even. It also depends on what you give up as dmg to increase mdef pierce, like using la'cryma combo instead of KVM for demi humans.
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#30 Sewasan

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 04:14 PM

well, i fially do celine but, i messed it up because i dont have maxed frost nova so i cant try with a better setup, but, with my current setup i made it to 104% mdef and i was doing the same dmg that i do with runaway magic proc, except this time is consistent, with frost nova i wont need OBMH for celine because pyramid combo and pororoca shoes with lacryma will grant you 100 mdef bypass, so i was thinking on use my zaha doll and with decent proc and the 10% dmg on undead i think the dmg will be better, this thing on high mdef things is really good, but now i bring tons of gears lol, because crimson still is beastly against low-mid mdef mob
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#31 fuyukikun

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 06:14 PM

conclusion: dont sell your crimson rod. both combos have their own situation.


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#32 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 06:47 PM

There's a break-even point in MDEF, and it depends on other sources of MATK that you have. But in this case, it's likely that this break-even point is quite low, like... 50 or so. Yes, I'm too lazy to do the math. XD

 

Also, with this combo you can wear Celine Ribbon or Zaha Doll hat.

 

Yeah, I thought so too that there should be a break-even point for MDEF, thats why I asked if anyone actually did an analysis to show where this break even point is. If its 50 like you suggested, then for warlocks the Lacryma Stick set is almost always better since you will be fighting monsters with higher MDEF as your level is higher. If the point is 100 or higher, then it may not be very useful unless you hunt high level MVPs. Either way, the best choice is to keep both sets and use what you have available. Or if you are like me, still a High Wizard, you probably have to use the Crimson Rod set anyway until weeks later after you get the 3rd class job change quest done.


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#33 Gabrielr04

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 07:30 PM

Yeah after all the things that have been said i've just decided to keep it. Still missing the shoes to be done with it finally~ (Damn shoes are at 170m now D_D). Thanks guys for all the information and points of views shared in the post 


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#34 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 08:59 PM

Yeah after all the things that have been said i've just decided to keep it. Still missing the shoes to be done with it finally~ (Damn shoes are at 170m now D_D). Thanks guys for all the information and points of views shared in the post 

 

umm only 170m? If you can afford Crimson Rod and Lacryma Stick, spending 170m for a pair of shoes shouldnt be a problem at all.

 


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#35 Kusanagisama

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 09:38 PM

I bought mine for 65M. :D That's why he's complaining, likely. It was very cheap on the first day, then people started noticing the footgear's value. :D


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#36 Gabrielr04

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 10:31 PM

The fact that i was able to afford crimson rod and lacryma was throught a lot of saving and not spending zeny in a rushed way. I might have good gears but I'm poor at zeny amount therefore the idea of selling the crimson rod, getting high profit daily/weekly is still hard for me xD
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#37 angelopaol1011

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 10:48 PM

time for truth:

78% mdef pierce, crimson rod combo
6hx7bDd.jpg

100% (actually 128% :D ) mdef pierce, lacryma combo
0WhRcIB.jpg


Hey fuyu, does ordinary hat affect boss and players? Or just plain normal monsters?

Thanks!
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#38 fuyukikun

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:37 PM

Hey fuyu, does ordinary hat affect boss and players? Or just plain normal monsters?

Thanks!

all

 

Yeah after all the things that have been said i've just decided to keep it. Still missing the shoes to be done with it finally~ (Damn shoes are at 170m now D_D). Thanks guys for all the information and points of views shared in the post 

my posts affect market price LOL


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#39 Ashuckel

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 02:28 AM

Just like i "promoted" my ifrit card and sold for 2.5x it's market value :v
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#40 Gabrielr04

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 05:39 AM

all

my posts affect market price LOL

LOL! So it was you the reason behind xD!
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#41 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 10:48 AM

time for truth:

 

78% mdef pierce, crimson rod combo

6hx7bDd.jpg

 

100% (actually 128% :D ) mdef pierce, lacryma combo

0WhRcIB.jpg

 

 

Hello there, I notice that you have about 180 INT and 158 DEX at lv.175. Are these your stats under normal condition or after taking temporary stats increasing potions? Just wondering, since I am thinking about a possible way to get 190 INT and 170 DEX so variable cast time is 0(or I can sacrifice INT/DEX and MATK for cast time reduction gears/cards, but then I wont be able to do enough damage to OHKO high level enemies). I thought it was near impossible but from what you are wearing I start to feel that its actually doable at lv.160+.
 


Edited by LordYggdrasill, 21 February 2017 - 10:48 AM.

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#42 Ashuckel

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 11:05 AM

look at the right side of the image 


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#43 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 11:07 AM

look at the right side of the image 

 

Oops, thx for reminding me. So this means, achieving INT 190/DEX 170 is still practically impossible without stats-increase potions and skill buffs...


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#44 Sewasan

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 01:06 PM

you dont need instant cast tho, specially on WL you need almost instant cast if you are soloing, fixed is there on almost all your spells, and the only variable important one is worht the shot while you have intensification, i dont really will be too worried about achieving instant cast on WL...Just stick with foods and 120/120 and you will get a very decent casting time.

Not saying tho that instant wont be cool but, is not that really something to die for.
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#45 Kusanagisama

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 10:59 AM

I'll review my calculations later, and submit to the forums experts, but according to my calc, +15 La'cryma Stick with Pororoca Shoes is only better than +15 Crimson Rod from 81 MDEF, which covers most of the MVPs. The 28% MDEF bypass adittion from the OBMH gives this set a huge resilience, and all the bonuses it gives make it the best hat for most situations, even when it doesn't give the bonus for a specific skill or when you don't need the MDEF bypass anymore. The results are shown below.

 

Stats:

INT 120 + 4 (both staves) + 7 (VIP buff) + 13 (job) = 144

DEX 120 + 7 (VIP buff) + 8 = 135

LUK 30 +7 (VIP buff) + 2 (job) = 39

 

Common Gears:

+10+ MBS [MDEF bypass combo card]

Hero Magic Coat [Agav]

+9 OBMH [Lichtern-like Card]

Mid [Lichtern-like Card]

Ninja Scroll

+12 FAW [Spell 19, NAM]

2x RWC Pendant [MATK 6%, Elvira]

+9 Magical Set

 

Weapons/Shoes:

+15 La'cryma Stick with one MDEF bypass Combo card (for easy comparison when adding one Big Ben and one N.Mimic card)

+7 Pororoca Shoes

Versus:

+15 Crimson Rod with one MDEF bypass Combo card

+9 Temporal Int Boots [Nightmare Verit]

 

I also made a scenario with a +12 SoD Spell4x2 with a racial bonus card, and it was BIS up to 43 MDEF (Amdarais' MDEF is 40, lol), and still wins against the La'cryma combo until 57 MDEF. If you put a Vesper Card in this combo, it becomes BIS up to 91 MDEF, losing to the La'cryma from this point, but still wins against the CR until 108 MDEF.

 

These numbers apply for Chain Lightning, Soul Expansion and Wind Tetra Vortex only. I'll edit adding numbers for Crimson Rock later, since it'll be influenced by NAM card and the +10% from both OBMH and Hero Magic Coat. Earth Strain will also be different, as well as all Water spells, and I won't try all possibilities.

 

Scenarios not tested:

Races that are not affected by the current MDEF Bypass combo cards. FAW of Intellectual (because "meh..." when you're soloing). Piercing Staff versus anything, (since they will allow you to use Temporal Int Boots, and this may even make them better in a few cases).

 

Conclusion:

Besides what everybody knows, which is the fact that MDEF is currently the most influent part of Spellcasters damage composition, MDEF bypass is also the greatest limiter of a Spellcaster's power. If you can't get High MATK combined with very high MDEF bypass (which you can't right now), your spellcaster will NEVER be on par with physical damage dealers, but will always be more fun to play. :heh: Also, +15 Crimson Rod is still the best leveling weapon for Warlocks, so, no need to sell it. Also, this study is an example as to why INT is the main stat for Sorcs and Warlocks. :heh:


Edited by Kusanagisama, 22 February 2017 - 01:27 PM.

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#46 Gabrielr04

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:48 PM

I'll review my calculations later, and submit to the forums experts, but according to my calc, +15 La'cryma Stick with Pororoca Shoes is only better than +15 Crimson Rod from 81 MDEF, which covers most of the MVPs. The 28% MDEF bypass adittion from the OBMH gives this set a huge resilience, and all the bonuses it gives make it the best hat for most situations, even when it doesn't give the bonus for a specific skill or when you don't need the MDEF bypass anymore. The results are shown below.

Stats:
INT 120 + 4 (both staves) + 7 (VIP buff) + 13 (job) = 144
DEX 120 + 7 (VIP buff) + 8 = 135
LUK 28 +7 (VIP buff) + 2 (job) = 39

Common Gears:
+10+ MBS [MDEF bypass combo card]
Hero Magic Coat [Agav]
+9 OBMH [Lichtern-like Card]
Mid [Lichtern-like Card]
Ninja Scroll
+12 FAW [Spell 19, NAM]
2x RWC Pendant [MATK 6%, Elvira]
+9 Magical Set

Weapons/Shoes:
+15 La'cryma Stick with one MDEF bypass Combo card (for easy comparison when adding one Big Ben and one N.Mimic card)
+7 Pororoca Shoes
Versus:
+15 Crimson Rod with one MDEF bypass Combo card
+9 Temporal Int Boots [Nightmare Verit]

I also made a scenario with a +12 SoD Spell4x2 with a racial bonus card, and it was BIS up to 43 MDEF (Amdarais' MDEF is 40, lol), and still wins against the La'cryma combo until 57 MDEF. If you put a Vesper Card in this combo, it becomes BIS up to 91 MDEF, losing to the La'cryma from this point, but still wins against the CR until 108 MDEF.

These numbers apply for Chain Lightning, Soul Expansion and Wind Tetra Vortex only. I'll edit adding numbers for Crimson Rock later, since it'll be influenced by NAM card and the +10% from both OBMH and Hero Magic Coat. Earth Strain will also be different, as well as all Water spells, and I won't try all possibilities.

Scenarios not tested:
Races that are not affected by the current MDEF Bypass combo cards. FAW of Intellectual (because "meh..." when you're soloing). Piercing Staff versus anything, (since they will allow you to use Temporal Int Boots, and this may even make them better in a few cases).

Conclusion:
Besides what everybody knows, which is the fact that MDEF is currently the most influent part of Spellcasters damage composition, MDEF bypass is also the greatest limiter of a Spellcaster's power. If you can't get High MATK combined with very high MDEF bypass (which you can't right now), your spellcaster will NEVER be on par with physical damage dealers, but will always be more fun to play. :heh: Also, +15 Crimson Rod is still the best leveling weapon for Warlocks, so, no need to sell it. Also, this study is an example as to why INT is the main stat for Sorcs and Warlocks. :heh:

Isn't it 37 luk with those stats instead of 39? And thanks for testing it. Really appreciated, i myself still haven't been able to test the la'cryma combo myself (busy irl) but can have a good idea of what would be the difference thanks to Fuyu and your testing Kusa

Edited by Gabrielr04, 22 February 2017 - 12:53 PM.

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#47 Kusanagisama

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:27 PM

Whops... my bad. 30+2+7.

 

I didn't test it yet, things just got boring at work today, so I made it. I'm not sure if the calculations are right, so I'll review it later. Maybe this weekend. Maybe I'll post it on Google Docs and ask Ash or Fuyuki-kun to review it. I've got very few time to play lately, so I've been focusing on making a 4th Warlock for posterior leveling to 140 and one more bako/week. And I want to make a Gene on my main account as well, and this spotlight is great for making a 3rd class character. Also, I just finished making my 4th La'cryma yesterday, and I have no spare Big Ben Card, so, it'll have to wait.


Edited by Kusanagisama, 22 February 2017 - 01:30 PM.

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#48 LordYggdrasill

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:31 PM

you dont need instant cast tho, specially on WL you need almost instant cast if you are soloing, fixed is there on almost all your spells, and the only variable important one is worht the shot while you have intensification, i dont really will be too worried about achieving instant cast on WL...Just stick with foods and 120/120 and you will get a very decent casting time.

Not saying tho that instant wont be cool but, is not that really something to die for.

 

Yeah. I actually did the Math with Kusanagisama's stats(INT 144, DEX 135) and gears, and the result shows that it already has near 92% VCT reduction(88% reduction by stats adding in fallen angel wing spell 6, 6, 7). If the stats can be bumped further(DEX + 3 on both of the RWC pendants, base INT at 130 rather than 120), it will become 93.5% VCT reduction. I see why FCT is the real headache, but without Temporal Dex Boots theres no way to cut down FCT unless you have Fenrir Card. Guess this is the trade off a magic user has to make between damage output and casting time. Its a different story if you can spend 10-15b on a Fenrir card though.


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#49 Gabrielr04

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:39 PM

Yeah. I actually did the Math with Kusanagisama's stats(INT 144, DEX 135) and gears, and the result shows that it already has near 92% VCT reduction(88% reduction by stats adding in fallen angel wing spell 6, 6, 7). If the stats can be bumped further(DEX + 3 on both of the RWC pendants, base INT at 130 rather than 120), it will become 93.5% VCT reduction. I see why FCT is the real headache, but without Temporal Dex Boots theres no way to cut down FCT unless you have Fenrir Card. Guess this is the trade off a magic user has to make between damage output and casting time. Its a different story if you can spend 10-15b on a Fenrir card though.

Good luck finding a Fenrir card for 10-15b :v, i default temporal dex for that same reason on my WL, otherwise the cast time tends to be not as fast as someone wants even with 100% VCT reduction and i just slotted them with Nightmare Verit to keep the damage up. It's the best of it.
MVP and other cases i switch to Temp Int with Nightmare Verit or Temp Int Spell/RM

Edited by Gabrielr04, 22 February 2017 - 01:40 PM.

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#50 Gabrielr04

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:41 PM

Whops... my bad. 30+2+7.

I didn't test it yet, things just got boring at work today, so I made it. I'm not sure if the calculations are right, so I'll review it later. Maybe this weekend. Maybe I'll post it on Google Docs and ask Ash or Fuyuki-kun to review it. I've got very few time to play lately, so I've been focusing on making a 4th Warlock for posterior leveling to 140 and one more bako/week. And I want to make a Gene on my main account as well, and this spotlight is great for making a 3rd class character. Also, I just finished making my 4th La'cryma yesterday, and I have no spare Big Ben Card, so, it'll have to wait.

What you mean with "making my 4th La'cryma" '-'? Are they all +15 xD?
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