202 replies to this topic

[Precrush]

In my opinion, nerfing the damage from the X spam discourages people from playing those classes if it's done in a big nerf like this one. Instead of looking for options to nerf the damage of the X spam classes, why not buff the element damage of those classes that doesn't really stand a fair chance against them in most cases by like 50%? 

Well one reason is that elements make for a horrible primary damage source system in pvp. Match ups shouldn't be based one arbitrary choice the player makes.

[Popcorn]

omg that low. XD is there a possibility to rise it to 1% or 1.5%?

 

I guess we can increase the rate a bit but I need to discuss this with the team first.

[Yuumikitsu]

Well one reason is that elements make for a horrible primary damage source system in pvp. Match ups shouldn't be based one arbitrary choice the player makes.

I agree that the element system is a horrible damage source in PvP but since raw damage deal close to nothing to max geared players it's like the only way to ever hope of killing them. The tank meta causes a lot of problems in my opinion cause it makes the fights drag on for really long and the element damage is basically "Who can attack most times in as short time as possible" since it's a value that almost applies base damage/true damage to an attack. There are many ways to go about this, I just think that nerfing X spammers element damage by 70% and still having the same general tankiness of every character in the game isn't a good idea.

[Precrush]

I agree that the element system is a horrible damage source in PvP but since raw damage deal close to nothing to max geared players it's like the only way to ever hope of killing them. 

Then that is what should be fixed no?

[Yuumikitsu]

Then that is what should be fixed no?

Yes, but how to do that is another question. Removing it would cause many people to lose all their hard work, not like that happened before but there was a greater reason behind it that time. Raw damage could at least have more influence on the damage that you deal so it's not almost completely decided by element damage. But also maybe not giving classes the HP buff when they enter PvP since the max HP makes spells like slow heal just do more than they would normally do. But it shouldn't just be about damage as well. Many people look at PvP in different ways and I would say that if you spend a lot on buffing your defense on a character you shouldn't be able to deal the true damage that element brings but instead have a loss in damage and vice versa for other builds that wanna go glass cannon and deal lots of damage but have low HP but not the point where they get killed in a second, unless they have no armor that is.

 

Duels that lasts for long aren't bad, but if the cause that they last long is that the enemy has too much HP instead of your ability to not being able to catch them properly it should be changed in some way. It's a hard subject to get to the point where everybody agrees with it but my view of it is that tank meta has never been a fun meta.

[bluelokura]

If you decreased damage by 70%, then the effectiveness of healing skills should be decreased by 70% too. That's what I would call BALANCE. This way you disbalanced things even more, Popcorn.

[Vossel]

Lets just wait how things turn out in Emporia this weekend, but tbh if you actually wanna kill those tanks you should try to build dmg, solar rings crit rate crit dmg etc and dont go halftank or more yourself. BSQ and EW are team based fights, so why should one person be able to nuke another tank just cuz he went full dmg? a tank is there to tank good amount of dmg, i would say to change this that if you decide to go full tank you should deal low dmg, so summoner can deal lots of dmg its fine by me if they die as fast as they kill others, i dont mind dying to a summoner i actually could kill in one combo as well as a Warrior class, or actually give classes some kind of purpose, example: x spam classes high dps to take down tanky people but other classes have higher burst to take down those glass canons in almost an instant.

[Popcorn]

If you decreased damage by 70%, then the effectiveness of healing skills should be decreased by 70% too. That's what I would call BALANCE. This way you disbalanced things even more, Popcorn.

 

Again, the damage decrease system has been in even before there has an element system been implemented on top by the former devs years ago. 

 

If there never would have been an element system implemented - or if we would have removed it in the past as wanted by many - the damage decrease would have been there and the damage output would be even lower because your damage output would also miss the 30% (resp. 50%) element damage you have on top still.

 

Interesting is, that now where the "x-spam" classes - which could be used with no skill and holding down one key on the keyboard - are on a similar DPS level the "bad" classes always had to deal with now have a problem with no longer being as OP as before in PvP.

 

Actually we are not done with Emporia changes and we are aware of the possible "island hopping" problem which might come back. We are observing the situation. 

 

As I already said we are also aware of the BSQ flag problem and we are working on solutions.

 

Finally please calm down, try the Emporia Wars this weekend and check if there are satisfying strategies now and then give us some feedback. Same for BSQ. But we won't increase the DPS of any classes (again).

[Turpi]

 

 

Interesting is, that now where the "x-spam" classes - which could be used with no skill and holding down one key on the keyboard - are on a similar DPS level the "bad" classes always had to deal with now have a problem with no longer being as OP as before in PvP.

 

thats actually true

[Starkespada1]

If you decreased damage by 70%, then the effectiveness of healing skills should be decreased by 70% too. That's what I would call BALANCE. This way you disbalanced things even more, Popcorn.

 

People with this mindset is the reason why we go down a spiral of nerfs

 

   Right now people are able to die in bsq if your using the opposite elements or have a good team to keep people locked down, Been to plenty of bsqs and I've seen mages mowed down along side every other class it just takes longer which is to be expected since you know dps classes got nerfed down to oblivion so now peoples main focus is to nerf heals when it's already been given a 50% effectiveness decrease, longer cool downs and some even blocked entirely from being used in pvp modes(instant heal). 

 

    I've always been against the lowered raw damage of classes in pvp modes, I think raw damage shouldn't ever have to be lowered for pvp and element should be the main focus since Popcorn's Element system has given everyone a chance of having their own choice of max element resist and attack in the element of their choosing which is awesome. The problem of Raw Damage really shows when you go vs someone who can Mitigate all or most of your element damage.

 

  If you face people of the same element and try to dps them with a  "X spam" class, you basically hit nothing and this problem leads back to PATK/MATK pvp reductions since you'll see just how sad your damage is without the help of element which btw should really be the 2ndary source of damage in my opinion or just removed the 50% reduction in pvp and let people kill each other fast.

 

People seem to want every class to be so weak to the point where every class will seem like their attacking each other with wet noodles doing no damage, remember when Popcorns element system first came out? It was working with 100% effectiveness in pvp and every single class was able to help dps any class down even with death buffs and un nerfed heals so maybe we should bring that back for a week and see how it plays out 

 

Any whoooo I'm really curious to see how this lowered damage will affect EW and hope the participants will leave Feed Back here on forums.

 

sorry for the longish comment lol

Edited by Starkespada1, 01 February 2018 - 11:31 AM.

[Yuumikitsu]

but tbh if you actually wanna kill those tanks you should try to build dmg, solar rings crit rate crit dmg etc and dont go halftank or more yourself.

As if building more raw damage would solve an issue in killing tanks? Element damage is the most damaging thing in PvP and it doesn't even crit, your raw damage is the crit and element damage is just a bonus. I think many people have tried to build in a way like this before and ultimately found out that you are actually able to deal more damage if you have more HP since element damage will still be about 70% of your damage against maxed geared players and if you have more HP you can survive for longer which means you can attack more times in total. 

 

Finally please calm down, try the Emporia Wars this weekend and check if there are satisfying strategies now and then give us some feedback. Same for BSQ. But we won't increase the DPS of any classes (again).

I'm talking more about PvP in general as in PvP rooms and not BSQ or Emporia Wars which often has much more variables due to the size of teams there.

 

Edit: I'm sorry if my first question in the reply came off as sarcastic or out of anger. This was not the intent of it at all and more about questioning the statement that was mentioned above.

Edited by Yuumikitsu, 01 February 2018 - 11:38 AM.

[bluelokura]

Do you actually read? Did I say I wanted you to increase dps damage, Pop? Throughout all this post, you have constantly ignored all the people who's asking for wide heal and similar skills to get a BETTER nerf. The same happens with my comment. I ask ALL healing skills to get a 70% effectiveness nerf, yet you talk about dps damage? It's very simple. If you already noticed that on battle square it's a pain in the neck to kill a cleric (unless you are on sky side of course), then if your intent is to really balance things, why decrease the damage of several classes. Less damage means it will be harder to kill mages. So what I'm asking is a nerf to healing skills or to character's pvp hp that matches the damage that is currently available. If you leave op healing skills untouched, you'll slowly see how battle square and pvp become more dead than what they already are. Peace.

[bluelokura]

Lets just wait how things turn out in Emporia this weekend, but tbh if you actually wanna kill those tanks you should try to build dmg, solar rings crit rate crit dmg etc and dont go halftank or more yourself. BSQ and EW are team based fights, so why should one person be able to nuke another tank just cuz he went full dmg? a tank is there to tank good amount of dmg, i would say to change this that if you decide to go full tank you should deal low dmg, so summoner can deal lots of dmg its fine by me if they die as fast as they kill others, i dont mind dying to a summoner i actually could kill in one combo as well as a Warrior class, or actually give classes some kind of purpose, example: x spam classes high dps to take down tanky people but other classes have higher burst to take down those glass canons in almost an instant.

Do you think I don't have solar rings, critical damage and critical rate? I'm talking after testing all this lame changes

[Popcorn]

Do you actually read? 

 

 

Do you think I don't have solar rings, critical damage and critical rate? I'm talking after testing all this lame changes

 

Can you please stop with this kind of attitude? Thank you.

[stiffyliffyriffy]

@Popcorn  If you don't mind me asking. What changes are in store for battlesquare?

[stiffyliffyriffy]

After trying out PvP with these new changes, I can clearly say that these nerfs are too harsh. Now summoners and invokers deal so little damage that their damage can be labeled as insignificant. Class balancing shouldn't result in removing DPS from the game.

 

As an invoker, I swear using single shot is almost better than using diffusion cannon/double shot now.

 

These nerfs made killing other players too hard in PvP. Most mages build tank and they have healing skills so it is only natural that people are complaining about how hard it became to kill mages, especially invokers since they have more healing skills. This is a fair complaint however, the solution to this should not be nerfing the healing skills more and more. When people asked for nerfs on the x attack of invoker, their argument was that invoker is a support class so its damage shouldn't be too high. Now the very same people who came up with this argument are asking for nerfs on healing skills. These recent nerfs literally destroyed the DPS aspect of invokers and the supporting aspect will be destroyed as well if the healing skills get nerfed too. And as a result of these, invoker will become useless. Class balancing is supposed to be about balancing the classes, not destroying the currently stronger ones.

 

Besides, before this patch one good summoner was enough to kill a stacked invoker. So if you ask me, the real problem we are dealing with right now is the harsh nerf on DPS.

 

Most mages build tank so even if you nerf the healing skills more, the mages will still survive for very long as long as the DPS of these three classes remain like this.

 

As I said at the beginning, I find these latest nerfs too harsh. I understand and agree with the need of nerfing the DPS of summoners, invokers and destroyers but this is not the right way to do it. Weakening these classes this much will result in PvP sessions where no one dies. I don't think that this is what anybody wants. At the very least, people should still be able to kill each other in PvP. But these nerfs make it almost impossible.

 

What I'd suggest is changing the percentage of damage drop. 70% is way too harsh.

 

I'd also like to say that these nerfs turn Emporia War into a battle of questing again. I thought the main aim of the latest Emporia changes was to make the system more PvP than RNG. However, no one will be able to kill each other in Emporia with these nerfs so people will try to win by doing quests and the system will become RNG again.

 

As for class balancing, it is obviously necessary but I personally don't think that it should be done by only nerfing the strong classes and making all classes weak. Instead of that, the currently weaker classes should be improved. Of course there will be nerfs during the process but nerfing the stronger classes too hard will result in making them weak too. At the end, we will have 10 weak classes if the class balancing continues like this. Is this really what we want? I'd personally prefer having 10 strong classes than having 10 weak classes.

 I concur.     

Edited by stiffyliffyriffy, 01 February 2018 - 01:54 PM.

[XiongmaoLin]

The actual drop rate of Mutisha's Cloak in the normal mode is 0.3169%.

 

omg that low. XD is there a possibility to rise it to 1% or 1.5%?

 

It is quite low indeed: around 0.95% probability to obtain at least one Cloak in one normal run, and if rates are the same for Expert mode, it then goes up to 1.26%. If I am not mistaken, that is; it has been some time since I last attended highschool math lessons about probabilities.

 

1.26% for normal mode, 2.51% for expert mode.

*hits head against the wall*

 

 

I'd personally prefer having 10 strong classes than having 10 weak classes.

 

Weakness is most often correlated to a regular, common, "normal" state of things: a veteran taekwondo practitioner who is not able to make some other, neophyte person bite the dust can be considered weak, in relation to other practitioners. You will never see all classes being weak lest you compare their capabilities to a former or future state of things, an ideal, a fantasy, you name it. You might say dividing their damage by two would make a class weaker than what they were before the cut; dividing their health by ten in the same slap would make them even weaker; yet if you do that to every class, then all characters will be way weaker than before, yet they will also be able to kill each other way faster (half the damage on a target with ten times less health). Actual damage will be lower, but actual kill potential will dramatically increase.

 

Thus, what do you call "strong" and "weak"?

Would this be properly rephrasing your sentence? "I'd prefer having ten classes with high kill potential rather than ten unkillable classes."

 

I am very intrigued by the fact that most forum users that read you seem to agree with something I do not understand. Thank you for reading, and have a nice day.

Edited by XiongmaoLin, 03 February 2018 - 01:54 AM.

[blacshift]

Again, the damage decrease system has been in even before there has an element system been implemented on top by the former devs years ago. 

 

If there never would have been an element system implemented - or if we would have removed it in the past as wanted by many - the damage decrease would have been there and the damage output would be even lower because your damage output would also miss the 30% (resp. 50%) element damage you have on top still.

 

Interesting is, that now where the "x-spam" classes - which could be used with no skill and holding down one key on the keyboard - are on a similar DPS level the "bad" classes always had to deal with now have a problem with no longer being as OP as before in PvP.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry to tell you that it's not true

We are not blind about how this is going and we are not bad against magicians

we only tell the truth how the situation is now and the truth is that the only benefited the magician and no one can deny it

the damage of x spam is good

but after looking for a solution, another big problem arises

and it's like being able to kill a magician

5 seconds more than the increase in healing is not much difference

It takes 5 people to kill a single magician, even with an invoker of the same element of the magician that would take a long time

Imagine 10 magicians to kill (mission impossible for other classes)

The best thing would be that the magicians they can only cured only once by battle

 not decrease their healing. ..It is the only solution that I believe

I would like you to see how the battles of bsq are

So that you draw your own conclusions or at least play with a class that is not a magician and see the reality of the other classes

 

I think it's also good that the GM

Interact with the whole community especially in bsq

 

Edited by blacshift, 01 February 2018 - 04:03 PM.

[qweweqweqwq]

just remove heals in pvp problem solved.

[zirothos]

just remove heals in pvp problem solved.

 

just dont talk like that  when you dont know what your talking about.. if they dint remove heal until this is cause they wont do it. and balance the over all thing.

 

I dont want to be rude on this quote but. this is just stupid.

 

it would be the first game who have skill remove from the PVP cause some player dont like it. of couse the heal system is not well made atm but balancing is what they do since many time now and keep doing it slowly to not unbalance the game in a big way.

 

Healer is meant to heal even is in this game they are or was super strong  (pvp) for some reason but the heal only applie on self and not on team so i know why you are talking like that. but modifie the skill so it can be more balance and remove is 2 different thing.

[Coolsam]

I actually don't mind how Healing was PvP-exclusively down-tuned as it has been. It's far more manageable, can be out-dps'ed, you can even catch them during cast time.

 

People are talking about mages being unkillable when in a mass-PvP battleground scenario. As Starkespada said; a coordinated catching, locking and attacking can out-damage any healing and kill the mage swiftly even with damage nerfs. Yes a 2-3 on 1 scenario is less likely. However holding 1 guy until death isn't impossible. I aint just talking when you have mages yourself, Archers, Thieves, Warriors, Dragonkins all have a way to support a lock.

 

I still think damage buffs to under-powered are a good idea to look at. Or a look at skill damage calculations for some. (Overlord's are still not able to fully utilize the ability to go over 100,000 attack due to these) X-spam got the down-tune, we can look to making underpowered skill-using classes a bit more powerful to start.

• Warriors are off the top of everyone's head obviously. Dragoons fell far from grace and Overlords are outdamaged by everything despite being the damage counterpart.
• Sorcerers have the mass CC and were buffed to deal element damage so they're fine.
• Savages are in a good spot,
• Ninjas and Destroyers have crits which, to my shock, not too many people know Critical Hits ignore a % defenses.
• Sentinels are also in a good spot as well, possessing pseudo-x-spam capabilities and good CC + Skill damages.
• Twins are also in a great spot still also being able to X-spam and have good CC and mobility even through dangerous spots.

Edited by Coolsam, 01 February 2018 - 06:02 PM.

[bluelokura]

 

I actually don't mind how Healing was PvP-exclusively down-tuned as it has been. It's far more manageable, can be out-dps'ed, you can even catch them during cast time.

 

People are talking about mages being unkillable when in a mass-PvP battleground scenario. As Starkespada said; a coordinated catching, locking and attacking can out-damage any healing and kill the mage swiftly even with damage nerfs. Yes a 2-3 on 1 scenario is less likely. However holding 1 guy until death isn't impossible. I aint just talking when you have mages yourself, Archers, Thieves, Warriors, Dragonkins all have a way to support a lock.

 

I still think damage buffs to under-powered are a good idea to look at. Or a look at skill damage calculations for some. (Overlord's are still not able to fully utilize the ability to go over 100,000 attack due to these) X-spam got the down-tune, we can look to making underpowered skill-using classes a bit more powerful to start.

• Warriors are off the top of everyone's head obviously. Dragoons fell far from grace and Overlords are outdamaged by everything despite being the damage counterpart.
• Sorcerers have the mass CC and were buffed to deal element damage so they're fine.
• Savages are in a good spot,
• Ninjas and Destroyers have crits which, to my shock, not too many people know Critical Hits ignore a % defenses.
• Sentinels are also in a good spot as well, possessing pseudo-x-spam capabilities and good CC + Skill damages.
• Twins are also in a great spot still also being able to X-spam and have good CC and mobility even through dangerous spots.

 

Your points make perfect sense, yet you are not considering the scenario of having to face 7 geared mages on the opposite team. That's when this excessive nerf to damage complicates things even more. I saw 6 sky people spamming one geared mage, with no one saving that mage, and it took them like 20 seconds. Be on that alone mage shoes, and try to kill one of those six mages trying to kill you, while you are the only mage on your team, and the rest are weak classes. If 6 geared people can take up to 20 seconds, given that no one comes to save that mage, in an scenario of 3 people attacking one mage, it can take even longer. In the end, they are subtly encouraging people to create a mage class with these changes, because the only way you can have chances of beating 6 or 7 mages in battle square is with at least 5 mages. I do agree with the idea of fighters as decent damage dealers, though.

[Agitodesu]

I agree with both coolsam and blueokura. Although not allowed to pin point guild names, that is a good example. Those players are already skilled and overly stacked, when they take a while to kill 1 person, what makes the casual players compete other than to let more stronger players on the other team. Like I said before having good buffs on weaker classes seem like the right direction especially warriors and thieves. Also apocryphos mentioned earlier on reverting the Patk/Matk reduction should be lifted since it seems that we are finally on track with playing around with elemental damage reduction.

[Precrush]

It's day 2-3 after the nerfs, just saying. Maybe try it in empo at least before making your conclusions.

It's obvious that healing is overpowered in bsq but that's mainly because it's all about stalling. I'd be ready to see some further pvp healing nerfs, but in that case invokers should get back the previously pvp blocked skills and get the ability to heal others in bsq. That way they'd get to be the support class.

Saying that it's impossible to kill mages now is simply over reacting. It might be more difficult now for summoners and other invokers, but still when locked down people do die quick, tho not quick enough. I'm good at testing the speed of dying in bsq, and yesterday I died in I'd say 4 seconds or there abouts to a group of 5 people. None of those were invokers or summoners.

Saying that this damage nerf buffed invokers is some grade A propaganda, compared to summoners sure that's true but for the other classes it's just as difficult to kill invokers as it was before, only difference being that they probably can't kill you now.

I don't know that you can call other classes weak anymore compared to summys and invokers, considering these damage nerfs put them below many of the previously weak classes. On invoker I tickle people with 0 ice ele resistance (300-400dmg per hit) and I have 2.2k ice element damage. We are all in the same boat now, normal damage needs to go up.

EDIT: Added stuff to 3rd paragraph.

Edited by Precrush, 01 February 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[Precrush]

Whats overreacting is when I saw some players, you including in a battlesquare and one side all left cause flags weren't even remotely close to dropping from 1 mage.

I don't care who's winning in bsq, I just ignore the flags ;D. Which bsq was this, cause I don't think that in the 2 that I was in invokers held any flags, it was sorcerers and their healing is very limited already.