306 replies to this topic

[Endbringer]

Someone doesnt understand irony; and once again a HUGE reading comprehension error Yurai (I bet your english teachers were so proud of you). I quit the game, not the forums, they'll fix it, and if they dont, I'll always be around just to be a thorn in your side. Im pretty sure thats 2 errors in a week, someone needs to stop skimming and start reading.

So what you're saying is you are so obsessed with Yurai that you'll stick around always just to be by his side? Kinda sick and creeper-ish imo. When you're ready to accept help let me know and i'll direct you to some good people.

[Yurai]

This right here is one of the major reasons for this implementation. Gold selling site using ill-gotten credit cards and flooding the market with cheap good (affecting the market negatively) then turning around and selling the gold obtained from all the sales for real cash. Once that is done, the cards are charged back and WE have to cover that fee. That means are sales number are going into the negatives. If the current trend continues with the sales we would have 2 options, shutting down forever due to lack of sales or nearly doubling the prices of item Mall items to stay a float.

We know we cannot complete stop gold selling websites with this move but its indeed a way to slow them down, and not have the community paying for it by raising item mall prices.

Trade Scammers can be dealt with, and to be honest its not safe to trade with folks you don't know. You always run the risk of getting scammed, best advice is to ask your friends for help with this.


We can deal with scammer, but when it comes to blatant creditcard fraud, chargebacks, and then selling the gold for RMT. By the time these accounts are found we've already incurred the cost, items are already in the economy and gold has been sold.

We did not do this to cause harm to community but if we do not take some kind of action, Dragon Saga maybe closing its doors forever. That's something neither I and I'm sure the rest of you would agree, do not want to happen.

I'm open for suggestions and ideas, and I'll be more than happy to submit them to my superiors. This is definitely a very serious issue, and judging by your reaction you can understand the frustration. We will be keeping an eye on this situation and will likely address it again when better measures for preventing fraud are put into place.

I am all for the idea that Reika posted. To recap, consumable cash items should not be allowed to be registered in the open market, but still allowed to trade in person. This allows for none of that "gift" scamming that was brought up with the gifting system, but still allows for trade of cash items between individual people. With a large scale operation such as a gold farming website, trading individual people certainly isn't a good way to get gold. In addition, to prevent megaphone abuse, regular megaphones can be made to a level 15 limit, and reinforced megaphones raised to a level 20 minimum requirement to prevent the abuse of creating level 1 characters to advertise their goods.

[Endbringer]

This right here is one of the major reasons for this implementation. Gold selling site using ill-gotten credit cards and flooding the market with cheap good (affecting the market negatively) then turning around and selling the gold obtained from all the sales for real cash. Once that is done, the cards are charged back and WE have to cover that fee. That means are sales number are going into the negatives. If the current trend continues with the sales we would have 2 options, shutting down forever due to lack of sales or nearly doubling the prices of item Mall items to stay a float.

We know we cannot complete stop gold selling websites with this move but its indeed a way to slow them down, and not have the community paying for it by raising item mall prices.

Trade Scammers can be dealt with, and to be honest its not safe to trade with folks you don't know. You always run the risk of getting scammed, best advice is to ask your friends for help with this.


We can deal with scammer, but when it comes to blatant creditcard fraud, chargebacks, and then selling the gold for RMT. By the time these accounts are found we've already incurred the cost, items are already in the economy and gold has been sold.

We did not do this to cause harm to community but if we do not take some kind of action, Dragon Saga maybe closing its doors forever. That's something neither I and I'm sure the rest of you would agree, do not want to happen.

I'm open for suggestions and ideas, and I'll be more than happy to submit them to my superiors. This is definitely a very serious issue, and judging by your reaction you can understand the frustration. We will be keeping an eye on this situation and will likely address it again when better measures for preventing fraud are put into place.

Personally i would like to see the market feature of being able to sell in game(non-cash item) items to other players for either gold or IM cash.

[Maronu]

I am all for the idea that Reika posted. To recap, consumable cash items should not be allowed to be registered in the open market, but still allowed to trade in person. This allows for none of that "gift" scamming that was brought up with the gifting system, but still allows for trade of cash items between individual people. With a large scale operation such as a gold farming website, trading individual people certainly isn't a good way to get gold. In addition, to prevent megaphone abuse, regular megaphones can be made to a level 15 limit, and reinforced megaphones raised to a level 20 minimum requirement to prevent the abuse of creating level 1 characters to advertise their goods.

I completely agree with this. In addition, WP might want to consider putting a level limit on PoW and the other towns. Some people have said that they do not think that it would help due to how quickly players can level to 15 or 20, but imo, anything to slow scammers and spammers down and help keep them out of populated areas is worth it.

@ Hastur, from your reply it seems that you personally don't have much of a problem with people buying IM points from legit players. I'd like to ask for confirmation that is your veiw and WPs official stance. Personally, I think the new policy is acceptable as long as WP does not ban people for buying IM through gifting; however, I am sure it would be greatly preferred by everyone if the consumables are still available for sale through direct trade with other players.

I believe I said this earlier, but sense this is a credit card fraud problem, developing a system where players can trade consumables on the market if they buy them with points obtained through game cards might be something worth consideration.

Edited by Maronu, 08 February 2011 - 10:18 AM.

[Rinami]

This right here is one of the major reasons for this implementation. Gold selling site using ill-gotten credit cards and flooding the market with cheap good (affecting the market negatively) then turning around and selling the gold obtained from all the sales for real cash. Once that is done, the cards are charged back and WE have to cover that fee. That means are sales number are going into the negatives. If the current trend continues with the sales we would have 2 options, shutting down forever due to lack of sales or nearly doubling the prices of item Mall items to stay a float.

We know we cannot complete stop gold selling websites with this move but its indeed a way to slow them down, and not have the community paying for it by raising item mall prices.

Trade Scammers can be dealt with, and to be honest its not safe to trade with folks you don't know. You always run the risk of getting scammed, best advice is to ask your friends for help with this.


We can deal with scammer, but when it comes to blatant creditcard fraud, chargebacks, and then selling the gold for RMT. By the time these accounts are found we've already incurred the cost, items are already in the economy and gold has been sold.

We did not do this to cause harm to community but if we do not take some kind of action, Dragon Saga maybe closing its doors forever. That's something neither I and I'm sure the rest of you would agree, do not want to happen.

I'm open for suggestions and ideas, and I'll be more than happy to submit them to my superiors. This is definitely a very serious issue, and judging by your reaction you can understand the frustration. We will be keeping an eye on this situation and will likely address it again when better measures for preventing fraud are put into place.

So no matter what, things will go wrong in the end for us. Do nothing, and the fraud causes net losses. Implement these changes, and many players are going to quit.((At the least can you nerf the Reign of Frost enemies, BD's defence, and Drakos so all players can manage without needing to enchant as much? I heard some rumors that Drakos needs like +10-12 weapons for full damage)

Also I've never used a creditcard(-prepares to be laughed at-), so could you go through the proceedure better of how this abuse happens. It seems the issue is closer to this chargeback part,

One solution is to change the system so we have to recharge through UGCs and such until the credit card system can be fixed. (http://www.playspan....imate-game-card), or at least change the recharging system so we can just redeem the cards directly for the game if this affects other games

Edited by Rinami, 08 February 2011 - 11:15 AM.

[Triter]

This right here is one of the major reasons for this implementation. Gold selling site using ill-gotten credit cards and flooding the market with cheap good (affecting the market negatively) then turning around and selling the gold obtained from all the sales for real cash. Once that is done, the cards are charged back and WE have to cover that fee. That means our sales number are going into the negatives. If the current trend continues with the sales we would have 2 options, shutting down forever due to lack of sales or nearly doubling the prices of item Mall items to stay a float.

We know we cannot completely stop gold selling websites with this move but it indeed is a way to slow them down, and not have the community paying for it by raising item mall prices.

Trade Scammers can be dealt with, and to be honest its not safe to trade with folks you don't know. You always run the risk of getting scammed, best advice is to ask your friends for help with this.


We can deal with scammers, but when it comes to blatant creditcard fraud, chargebacks, and then selling the gold for RMT. By the time these accounts are found we've already incurred the cost, items are already in the economy and gold has been sold.

We did not do this to cause harm to the community but if we do not take some kind of action, Dragon Saga maybe closing its doors forever. That's something neither I and I'm sure the rest of you would agree, do not want to happen.

I'm open for suggestions and ideas, and I'll be more than happy to submit them to my superiors. This is definitely a very serious issue, and judging by your reaction you can understand the frustration. We will be keeping an eye on this situation and will likely address it again when better measures for preventing fraud are put into place.

Can't you put a delay to transitions and if is the case cancel the receiving IM points when you realize it's an illegal purchase?

[Rimmy]

I am all for the idea that Reika posted. To recap, consumable cash items should not be allowed to be registered in the open market, but still allowed to trade in person. This allows for none of that "gift" scamming that was brought up with the gifting system, but still allows for trade of cash items between individual people. With a large scale operation such as a gold farming website, trading individual people certainly isn't a good way to get gold. In addition, to prevent megaphone abuse, regular megaphones can be made to a level 15 limit, and reinforced megaphones raised to a level 20 minimum requirement to prevent the abuse of creating level 1 characters to advertise their goods.

I also agree w/ Reika's suggestion, and Yurai's follow-up. I highly doubt gold scammers are going to bother wasting the time running around performing individual trades -- they'll just move on to some other game.

I'd also like the clarification Maronu requested... Are players permitted to make Item Mall "trades" by gifting IM items to others and then accepting gold as payment? This would at least work as a temporary workaround for legit IM trading, among people who trust each other, until you guys come up with a better solution.

[Himeyasha]

Can't you put a delay to transitions and if is the case cancel the receiving IM points when you realize it's an illegal purchase?

The problem with this is that most times you have close to half a month to request a chargeback
Merchants tend to incur penalty fees by the initiation of chargebacks.
The cards are defaulted so the merchant just loses and loses.

Prepaid cards are one option
However, gravity and the card company would have to generate codes that make spamming codes until you find a legit one stupid and evade proxied attempts to do it.

From Wiki http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Chargeback
The merchant's acquiring bank accepts the risk that the merchant will remain solvent over time, and thus has an incentive to take a keen interest in the merchant's products and business practices. Reducing consumer chargebacks is crucial to this endeavor. To encourage compliance acquirers may, at their discretion, charge merchants a penalty per chargeback received. Payment service providers, such as PayPal, have a similar policy.[2]

In addition, Visa and MasterCard may levy severe fines against acquiring banks that retain merchants with high chargeback frequency. Acquirers typically pass such fines directly to the merchant. Merchants whose ratios stray too far out of compliance may trigger card association fines of $100 or more per chargeback.[3]

PS sorry I offended you but most virtual currency sellers are Chinese or Russian with a small pie by Americans

Edited by Himeyasha, 08 February 2011 - 10:54 AM.

[Maronu]

So no matter what, things will go wrong in the end for us. Do nothing, and the fraud causes net losses. Implement these changes, and many players are going to quit.((At the least can you nerf the Reign of Frost enemies, BD's defence, and Drakos so all players can manage without needing to enchant as much? I heard some rumors that Drakos needs like +10-12 weapons for full damage)

Also I've never used a creditcard(-prepares to be laughed at-), so could you go through the proceedure better of how this abuse happens. It seems the issue is closer to this chargeback part,

One solution is to change the system so we have to recharge through UGCs and such until the credit card system can be fixed. (I think some site lets you buy them online), or at least change the recharging system so we can just redeem the cards directly for the game if this affects other games

Yeah, was also thinking that maybe WP should limit payment methods for awhile.

Can't you put a delay to transitions and if is the case cancel the receiving IM points when you realize it's an illegal purchase?

I wouldn't mind having an added benefit of gamecards (being able to use IM points immediately), and possibly having to wait if I paid by credit card. Actually, I wouldn't mind if we only had gamecards, since that's the only payment method I used with THQ (we got the guardian sets as a bonus for purchasing a 25$ game card). Maybe we should have a new poll on preferred payment method. I'm wondering how others would feel about a restriction if it means that we can keep consumables tradeable and marketable.

@ Serverfang and whoever else, I'm getting a bit tired of seeing personal squalls and bickering that is not related to the thread's topic. I've been using my ignore list a bit more recently. It's a nice function of these forums. I highly recommended it.

Edited by Maronu, 08 February 2011 - 10:53 AM.

[igozuvi]

Are players permitted to make Item Mall "trades" by gifting IM items to others and then accepting gold as payment? This would at least work as a temporary workaround for legit IM trading, among people who trust each other, until you guys come up with a better solution.

It's kind of widely accepted but not officially supported, simply because the transaction can't be recorded or monitored by the company. It's basically a "do it at your own risk" kind of thing. Vendable cash shop items was a great solution to avoiding the risk of buying cash shop items from other players, but it looks like it opens doors to chinese scammers just the same.

Making things trade-only kind of solves the issue, although to be honest I would find it a hassle to buy things from people directly. I'm pretty noob in the game and I don't know that many people, I don't really wanna go around looking for people to buy from, especially since (with the implementation of this patch) there will be no legal way to advertise the selling of cash shop items.

[Rimmy]

It's kind of widely accepted but not officially supported, simply because the transaction can't be recorded or monitored by the company. It's basically a "do it at your own risk" kind of thing. Vendable cash shop items was a great solution to avoiding the risk of buying cash shop items from other players, but it looks like it opens doors to chinese scammers just the same.

Making things trade-only kind of solves the issue, although to be honest I would find it a hassle to buy things from people directly. I'm pretty noob in the game and I don't know that many people, I don't really wanna go around looking for people to buy from, especially since (with the implementation of this patch) there will be no legal way to advertise the selling of cash shop items.

In the THQ*ICE server, it is my understanding that some folks were banned for gifting and then charging gold as it violated rules prohibiting exploiting "loopholes" in the system. I just want to know if WarpPortal takes the same stance.

[GrapefruitGod]

Make it so you have to be level 60 to sell consumables. Sure this may not be fair to a lot of people; but do you honestly think a gold spammer would grind to level 60 with Korean MMO exp?

[Nolanvoid]

Some players may not be able to obtain game cards. There should always be multiple ways to pay. Credit cards appear to be a predominant thing.

[Maronu]

Make it so you have to be level 60 to sell consumables. Sure this may not be fair to a lot of people; but do you honestly think a gold spammer would grind to level 60 with Korean MMO exp?

+1

[Severfang]

One solution is to change the system so we have to recharge through UGCs and such until the credit card system can be fixed. (I think some site lets you buy them online), or at least change the recharging system so we can just redeem the cards directly for the game if this affects other games

Some players may not be able to obtain game cards. There should always be multiple ways to pay. Credit cards appear to be a predominant thing.

[Teochiu]

Some players may not be able to obtain game cards. There should always be multiple ways to pay. Credit cards appear to be a predominant thing.

But a credit card could be used to purchase UGC, even online. Playspan sells UGC cards online and would be a method of bypassing fraudulent credit cards. They're already pretty stringent with the approved credit cards able to purchase from them anyway. Additionally wouldn't PayPal be a feasible method? If one has a credit card, one could just as easily set up a PayPal. You could even set limits so that the PayPal account would have to be verified first. This would prevent fraud because the PayPal system for verification requires access to bank statements.

[ridicule]

Some players may not be able to obtain game cards. There should always be multiple ways to pay. Credit cards appear to be a predominant thing.

I believe this is why many people are suggesting to accept all methods of payment, but ONLY allow consumables bought with game cards to be tradeable/sellable on the market.

This is, of course, if the dev team is able to flag the different items depending on payment method.

[Yurai]

In the THQ*ICE server, it is my understanding that some folks were banned for gifting and then charging gold as it violated rules prohibiting exploiting "loopholes" in the system. I just want to know if WarpPortal takes the same stance.

From my understanding, people who bought cash from a fraudulent seller was banned, though the seller himself was not.

[Xyltch]

This right here is one of the major reasons for this implementation. Gold selling site using ill-gotten credit cards and flooding the market with cheap good (affecting the market negatively) then turning around and selling the gold obtained from all the sales for real cash. Once that is done, the cards are charged back and WE have to cover that fee. That means our sales number are going into the negatives. If the current trend continues with the sales we would have 2 options, shutting down forever due to lack of sales or nearly doubling the prices of item Mall items to stay a float.

We know we cannot completely stop gold selling websites with this move but it indeed is a way to slow them down, and not have the community paying for it by raising item mall prices.

Trade Scammers can be dealt with, and to be honest its not safe to trade with folks you don't know. You always run the risk of getting scammed, best advice is to ask your friends for help with this.


We can deal with scammers, but when it comes to blatant creditcard fraud, chargebacks, and then selling the gold for RMT. By the time these accounts are found we've already incurred the cost, items are already in the economy and gold has been sold.

We did not do this to cause harm to the community but if we do not take some kind of action, Dragon Saga maybe closing its doors forever. That's something neither I and I'm sure the rest of you would agree, do not want to happen.

I'm open for suggestions and ideas, and I'll be more than happy to submit them to my superiors. This is definitely a very serious issue, and judging by your reaction you can understand the frustration. We will be keeping an eye on this situation and will likely address it again when better measures for preventing fraud are put into place.

It seems like a decent middle ground solution for this is restricting IM items from the market, forcing players to revert to Megas and COD/Trades, which I would have no problem with. Although it seems megas(at least reinforced ones)are a little low on the market, and since, I'm assuming, they'll also be banned from the market as well with this patch, It might be a good idea to put them on the item mall.

Also, I'm pretty sure the ice continent patch contains the new vending system, which will add a whole nother variable to this equation. It could either help us in remedying this situation, or just make it worse, or both.

[Rimmy]

From my understanding, people who bought cash from a fraudulent seller was banned, though the seller himself was not.

Hmm. Yeah, sounds like THQ*ICE logic.

EDIT: Well I guess the idea was to deter people from doing it since the sellers could just create new accounts.

Edited by Rimmy, 08 February 2011 - 11:15 AM.

[zabmaru]

[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]
I've been using my ignore list a bit more recently. It's a nice function of these forums. I highly recommended it.

Oh man, there's an Ignore list? Could you be absurdly awesome and tell me how to get to it? I'd ignore some users like crazy if I could.

[Jizasu]

I know some people want IAH's system of selling things for cash but I would hate it. back in the day when I played there everything was CASH and Gold had no real purpose at all other pay for fees and pots. It was hard to get anything in market x.x

[IraizenI]

JUST KEEP THEM TRADEABLE!!!
At the very least we can make gold selling through COD and trading... No market stuff, no bots, no afk sellers, just person to person.


I wonder, how do we get an announcement for a huge thing like this. but no announcement when they decided that house buffs were going 30days only... Stop acting on players back, talk, discuss, research, thats what companies SHOULD do.

[Nolanvoid]

JUST KEEP THEM TRADEABLE!!!
At the very least we can make gold selling through COD and trading... No market stuff, no bots, no afk sellers, just person to person.


I wonder, how do we get an announcement for a huge thing like this. but no announcement when they decided that house buffs were going 30days only... Stop acting on players back, talk, discuss, research, thats what companies SHOULD do.

Let me know if I'm wrong, but there are posts stating that we're open to ideas. A response won't be given right away if something sounds acceptable. It still has to go through the proper channels to be approved.

[BigCU]

What if you made insurance scrolls sellable by npc's? I'm fine with all the other consumables being soulbounded but insurance scrolls play just too big of a role in this game....Just make it sell able by npc and untradeable

I like this suggestion. Insurance scrolls plays too big of a role for them to be cash spender exclusive. Just compare +5 gears with +10 gears and you already see a huge difference.

Cash items should provide luxury for people who pays and funds the game provider not a mean to break the game. Im sure most of us won't mind that someone who pays real cash gets talk over world chat, or beable to vend offline or beable to resurrect without loss of exp, or have more vault space so on so forth. However,if someone who pays real cash can get 3-4 times the attack power and def than someone who doesnt, that just ruins the game.

I also like the idea of IM consumable items being trade able but prohibited from market registry. This seems like a good compromise.

I believe that if WP take either one of these suggestions they can save the majority of their players while still able to accomplished their original goal of slowing down gold sellers/fruad.




I'm gigantic..