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Updated 3/31 Discussing the VIP settings that are coming up


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#51 TheUraharaShop

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:14 AM

There is a difference between having an account that has all of your buffs (such as Potter, Vender, Linker and Buffs) but thats only 3 to 4 different characters, that doesn't require anymore then two accounts, for most who are actually effected by this, it's more then two.

But the biggest problem players are not recognizing is the difference between wants and needs:

as GaurdianTK ask:
People actually play FS Soul Linkers for WoE? What are you going to do if you end up having no Priest/High Priest/Arch Bishop online during the time of WoE?


That's a WANT not a need. Before there were soul links people got around ever so nicely, but dont get it wrong that is quite nice to have. But even if it's nice to have that doesn't justify pushing dual client-ing because WoE isn't on every hour of everyday of every week. It's only twice a week for two hours (correct me if im wrong) which would equal about 2% the time spent by players in WoE during a weeks span...


But by cutting the dual client it makes it easier for players to actually find parties instead of players nearly making a slave account to do everything else a legitimate and competent player could do; this is all this is trying to do.


Personally, I would say cut it all for now and lets cross the bridge once the community has more things to bolster it and then bring it back once they've finished more important projects for iRO. Because if a person quits this game simply over dual Client-ing, anyone can easily see how petty they are.
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#52 meoryou2

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:43 AM

Blah blah blah.


Ahh look, the gravity apologist is back. The GMs can do no wrong, let's make stupd decisions that you have to send in your CC, bank statements, SSID#, and sign a contract to give over your first-born child.... all while our servers ask you to tortuously enter CAPTCHAS every five minutes or when you are horribly mobbed - whichever comes first - while none of this will stop bots form connecting to our servers, or force people to party.

Good old RO forums... how I've missed you.
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#53 Puppet

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:52 AM

This multi client limit is bad idea and you know it is gonna back fire on you so I dont understand why you gonna do this it will just cause you headaches Not to mention you gonna screw woe up for alot of guilds that have salve accounts to just do warps,


And REALLY just Leave the 600storage alone on Ymir to many people have many account with well over 400 stuff in them, you gona force people to make more accounts just to store there gear and have to search multi accounts to find where there gear and stuff. Not to mention it will make it harder to keep track of were all our stuff , that we able to to with just 1 or 2 account we mained. which the multi client issue will just make worse. Valk was never aloud past 300 this problem dont effect them.

The least you can do for ymir is leave our storage at 600 for being loyal subscribers for all these years. most of would agree the drops/exp/death are worth the pay extra, but dont make us to pay just to keep or storage on our accounts.

But then you's been makine bad decsions for years that been ruing the game and driving people to pservers. so by all means don't listen to the people that pay your salaries then when there none of us left to pay it you's can wonder why...

Edited by Puppet, 25 March 2011 - 10:56 AM.

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#54 TheUraharaShop

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:54 AM

Ahh look, the gravity apologist is back. The GMs can do no wrong, let's make stupd decisions that you have to send in your CC, bank statements, SSID#, and sign a contract to give over your first-born child.... all while our servers ask you to tortuously enter CAPTCHAS every five minutes or when you are horribly mobbed - whichever comes first - while none of this will stop bots form connecting to our servers, or force people to party.

Good old RO forums... how I've missed you.




Really, it's crap like that that makes this game sucks. No matter what changes they make you always have something completely retarded to say which only boils down too "Gravity can't win for loosing". No matter what they change, what they add, what they plan to do, mofos like you come out of the wood work and just vomit all over rational discussion, debate and thought. Because I'm for them cutting the dual but not everything else from for the VIP like the storage for example. But you wouldn't know that because you over-under analyze everything I post, say it sucks, then turn around and continue to complain the same things I say should be fixed.

So in closing that would make you a hypocrite grow up.
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#55 Puppet

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:03 AM

btw poeple will find ways around your mutli client stoping, I know of atleast 3 ways to by pass this,

1 another computer
2 virtual pc inside curent pc
3 Run different users with in windows

so why try when you know people are gona find ways around and you gona cause your selves headaches for just trying, the damage has around been done with multi client, the only why yous can fix the damage that has been done by you's over all these years from multi clienting and your karfa box and your other bad decisions is complete wipe of everything, and you's know if you do that you will just run everyone off and put the final nail in the games coffin. So I would seriously re think the multi client

Edited by Puppet, 25 March 2011 - 11:05 AM.

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#56 brokenguy

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:07 AM

They said it's fine to run another client on another computer. hint hint.
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#57 Xellie

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:07 AM

That's a WANT not a need. Before there were soul links people got around ever so nicely, but dont get it wrong that is quite nice to have. But even if it's nice to have that doesn't justify pushing dual client-ing because WoE isn't on every hour of everyday of every week. It's only twice a week for two hours (correct me if im wrong) which would equal about 2% the time spent by players in WoE during a weeks span...


Do you actually play? Because before there were soul linkers there weren't skills that required a soul linker to counter (kaite crystal fragment etc?)

Why on earth would anyone who plays in WoE want to play a class capped at 99 as their main? with level differences in status etc, they are severely disabled compared to regular third classes and to main a soul linker would probably make people NOT want to play.
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#58 Kimmy

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:13 AM

People actually play FS Soul Linkers for WoE? What are you going to do if you end up having no Priest/High Priest/Arch Bishop online during the time of WoE?


I did when I played still. [: It's fun!

Anyway, my question is: What happens to the 600/600 storage I have when I don't pay my account because I currently don't play. Do 300 of my items just disappear to nothingness? I shouldn't have to pay for my accounts just to keep my items while I'm not able to play.
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#59 TheUraharaShop

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:14 AM

btw poeple will find ways around your mutli client stoping, I know of atleast 3 ways to by pass this,

1 another computer
2 virtual pc inside curent pc
3 Run different users with in windows

so why try when you know people are gona find ways around and you gona cause your selves headaches for just trying, the damage has around been done with multi client, the only why yous can fix the damage that has been done by you's over all these years from multi clienting and your karfa box and your other bad decisions is complete wipe of everything, and you's know if you do that you will just run everyone off and put the final nail in the games coffin. So I would seriously re think the multi client


Yeah two of those 3 eat up system resources, so it could become a problem for players at some point, but honestly I'm just sticking tot he first....

Spoiler



That;s why I say just cut it all together and have people go back to doing it the old fashion way... its not like it's gonna get any harder.

@Xellie

That's a good point, who would play that class because of all of those reasons... it's kinda the same reason why people spent all their time getting a pure WoE Scholar, only to come to find out they'd only be useful out side of WoE after they get ME and Soul Siphon and be level 9x? Again WoE only makes up 2% of the week, so the other 98% they're sitting on their hands. But the whole purpose behind this move isn't to cripple woe, but to focus on what players do out side of it. Maybe they can find away to make the classes balanced for SL,TKM,Ninja, Gunslinger and SN I'm willing to be then, there wouldn't been that many complaints. But that's my whole point, focus on issues like that and but keep Dual Client on the back burner.

@Kimmy

The storage would be (for example) 578/300. So you could take stuff out but not put it back in. There use to be errors where players were forced to take items in party and I had at one time tried to trade items to a party member while i had more then 100 items in my inventory. The ones I were trading got erased when she clicked cancel @_@. I just hope they ensure errors like those dont happen with the storage. BUT I agree with the notion of it remaining at 600 and VIP getting 900.

Edited by TheUraharaShop, 25 March 2011 - 11:25 AM.

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#60 Puppet

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:15 AM

not everyone can run multi computers or have them.

BTW here scenrio for you about the ymir storage issue

person has 2 accounts both over 300 they have to get 3rd just to store the stuff, none of the account are payed for. wth do you expect those people to get stuff off one account and back on to the other. If there multi client blocked? that person is screwed if they they gear or something is on those account. Mailbox is usable yes but Some people rather not use that. yes you can find some one to do the transfer, but maybe they dont trust people to do that.


Leave storage @ 600 on ymir the other changes are fine, and I see this Mult client things failing and cause more problems then they are will or able to deal with and them just droping it

Edited by Puppet, 25 March 2011 - 11:22 AM.

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#61 Rosenthrall

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:17 AM

But by cutting the dual client it makes it easier for players to actually find parties instead of players nearly making a slave account to do everything else a legitimate and competent player could do; this is all this is trying to do.


I disagree. The community, more specifically the partying aspect of it, is based on equal exchange, no matter what we might like to think.

If there were a certain turn-in experience event, there is no way a party with extremely limited space would keep dead-weight. A party needs to have several people to do various jobs, and what happens if there just isn't anyone to heal, say, and someone volunteers to multi-client as long as the other character gets to stay? It's not detracting from the interaction between players. In fact, frankly, I think that the end of community interaction was when turn-in events ended.

I'm not just QQing about this, nor necessarily requesting for the turn-in events to be brought back permanently, but since Renewal, the game has simply become a grind-fest with no need for interaction. I highly doubt that banning multi-clienting is really going to make much, if any, difference. Like Pril said, the days of the old gator and goats parties forced people to party up, which was good for interaction. But again, nobody wants a leech in the party, and said leech would need someone who was at least somewhat useful to be able to get a party.

What happens to brewers, or forgers, or FS priests and linkers? People don't want them; not unless there's a big event like titans, in which case everyone is scrambling for them. Why party a priest who drains the experience from an inefficient, badly set-up party system when you can just buy potions and spam them?

I agree that to get more interaction within the community, you shouldn't be limiting multiclienting (though I see the issues with not limiting it), but should at least fix the party system, among other things. If there needs to be a restriction, at the very least allow two non-premium accounts to be logged at the same time so that people have a way of transferring items, giving out supplies, warping etc.

Edited by Rosenthrall, 25 March 2011 - 11:18 AM.

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#62 Puppet

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:19 AM

Yeah two of those 3 eat up system resources, so it could become a problem for players at some point, but honestly I'm just sticking tot he first....

Spoiler



That;s why I say just cut it all together and have people go back to doing it the old fashion way... its not like it's gonna get any harder.



So again the people that cause afford a second pc or has access to 2nd pc benefit and rest of people suffer, you honesty think the community will stand for that and not have issues with that?, Change is all good and stuff but not if that change is gonna benefit certain people and screw others over.
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#63 TheUraharaShop

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:33 AM

Literally puppet I scrapped all 4 boxes and I only got 1 to work XD. But I'm not getting these box up to play iRO (<3 Xellie)



but

What happens to brewers, or forgers, or FS priests and linkers? People don't want them; not unless there's a big event like titans, in which case everyone is scrambling for them. Why party a priest who drains the experience from an inefficient, badly set-up party system when you can just buy potions and spam them?


1.) Honestly I say, get friends... not as a term of disrespect, but to better the social network to really make the game better. We all remember the times where we stayed up for 17 hours for absolutely no reason other to chat with people? Hang out on vent? and if we did it wasn't a grind because we were all having fun ALL ON A SCHOOL NIGHT?!?!?! Yeah... those were the days something that iRO right now has to tap in too.


2.) Why party with a priest instead of just spamming pots? Because the whole lone wolf solo grind to 99/150 is just a concept from 2004 which is not now because it's 2011.




Yeah they need to fix alot of other parts of the game, and that's what i'm saying they do. Just drop this for now (All the VIP special dual log on stuff) and focus on the more important things.like fixing the partying system.
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#64 Puppet

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 12:28 PM

the whole lone wolf thing is still done cause the party system is broke beyond beleif in renewal and the level diffrence for exp didn't help matters what good for one person in the party could possible be be bad for the other special if there 15 levels lower or higher. which is why there is the whole solo mentality

They been FIXING things for years and most the stuff still isnt fixed what makes you think f2p will make those changes happen?

This is all besides the point. Mulit client block is bad idea at least as it is currently proposed. Allow at alest 2 free account to log on at once.
Leave ymir storage (600 free) alone as droping it on people that have well over 400 on there accounts, is gonna cause problems special with the current multi client idea, it will make it imposable for some one to get some off there account on to another(some poeple dont like mailbox for that or using other people to transfer things), with out being forced to pay just to keep access to there storage items of 3+ years not to mention how much of a issue keep track of where things are will become.

I like to think gravity has common sense, but some times I wonder if they even have that.
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#65 GuardianTK

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 12:53 PM

There is a difference between having an account that has all of your buffs (such as Potter, Vender, Linker and Buffs) but thats only 3 to 4 different characters, that doesn't require anymore then two accounts, for most who are actually effected by this, it's more then two.

But the biggest problem players are not recognizing is the difference between wants and needs:

as GaurdianTK ask:
People actually play FS Soul Linkers for WoE? What are you going to do if you end up having no Priest/High Priest/Arch Bishop online during the time of WoE?


That's a WANT not a need. Before there were soul links people got around ever so nicely, but dont get it wrong that is quite nice to have. But even if it's nice to have that doesn't justify pushing dual client-ing because WoE isn't on every hour of everyday of every week. It's only twice a week for two hours (correct me if im wrong) which would equal about 2% the time spent by players in WoE during a weeks span...


But by cutting the dual client it makes it easier for players to actually find parties instead of players nearly making a slave account to do everything else a legitimate and competent player could do; this is all this is trying to do.


Personally, I would say cut it all for now and lets cross the bridge once the community has more things to bolster it and then bring it back once they've finished more important projects for iRO. Because if a person quits this game simply over dual Client-ing, anyone can easily see how petty they are.

Okay, let's not play Soul Linkers and delete them all. They're obsolete anyways. Who the hell would want to party an obsolete Soul Linker? Let's also walk to our respective WoE realms when our Suras/Arch Bishops haven't died yet and aren't in the inn with us. Or we can wait until a Recall or for our castle to get broken because everyone's disorganized and slow as hell getting back into the castle manually without warps.
Better yet, when we're outside of WoE let's all walk back and forth between Veins and Thors Volcano because there's nobody to help warp us back and forth for the Vein's Sibling Quest. Then there's also Ice Dungeon and the likes. Really? You're gonna expect a warper to be there 24/7? I don't think so. "Hey! Wanna be friends with me so we can level together, because you're a Priest and all?" "Sorry, I live on the other side of the world, so it'll be tough for us to level together in the same time frame for a long period of time."

Also to add to your other comments about brewing and such. Really? Get friends to play the alts for you? Are you kidding me? How many people do you trust in this world? You do realize this is where hacking incidents begin, right? By sharing your account with others who you "think" you can trust. And not everyone has friends they know in their area who play RO as well.

Edited by GuardianTK, 25 March 2011 - 01:09 PM.

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#66 Viri

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 01:00 PM

I wouldn't worry about the multiclient thing. They said they want to implement it clientside which guarantees a workaround. Probably within 24 hours lol
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#67 Braska

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 01:24 PM

^lol
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#68 Hacks

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 01:53 PM

this whole matter needs to be better explained in depth about what changes will be made to each server, and without the marketing BS heim, we just want straight facts here.

in regard to valk, what of the "premium content" plan? will we all be required to have VIP accounts to make 3rd job characters, or will that still be via stones? will the current premium servers be required to buy stones or be VIP accounts to make 3rd job? what about those extra instanced dungeons you promised us? how about the zeny value of etc items? death penalty? what about the cards missing from valk? what constitutes a "VIP" user? you need to put this all out in the open it's implemented. given the amount of kafra points i buy on a monthly basis, i feel my VIP status should be included. is this going to be charged per RO account or per WP account? if you really want this diabolical plan of yours to work you need to make it so cheap that people have little reason to not get it. 200-300WP to make all game accounts under one WP account VIP for a month seems fair enough to me, or include it for free when you convert 2500+ WP at a time. seriously, these digital goods have a net creation cost of nothing, free VIP when you buy X amount of KP is a great incentive to get more people to buy KP. if this system must be implemented, please consider my suggestions, either make it cheap or make it free, i'd just assume move on to something else than be faced with paying some rediculous amount per account just to play this a game that has unfixed well documented bugs over 6 years old.
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#69 Maka

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 01:53 PM

Storage is the scariest part for me. I have well over the 300 limit, and if i were to start playing as a free user, I'd never be able to put anything in storage. I certainly have nowhere to put all the other stuff.

With every update RO adds more and more items you need to collect. It's just hard to think we will be forever stuck with the 300/600 limit. Almost every item you find on the ground in RO has some alternative value. Even jellopies!

Edited by Maka, 25 March 2011 - 01:56 PM.

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#70 jax5

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:16 PM

Current state of partying: fairly nonexistant

General strategies:
1) punish people who choose not to party
2) reward people who choose to party

I think a concentration on punishment (e.g. multiclient limitation) without any change to reward is going to needlessly cause people to quit (because other game or hobby options are available), without noticeably increasing the amount of partying that occurs.
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#71 meoryou2

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:16 PM

Really, it's crap like that that makes this game sucks. No matter what changes they make you always have something completely retarded to say which only boils down too "Gravity can't win for loosing". No matter what they change, what they add, what they plan to do, mofos like you come out of the wood work and just vomit all over rational discussion, debate and thought. Because I'm for them cutting the dual but not everything else from for the VIP like the storage for example. But you wouldn't know that because you over-under analyze everything I post, say it sucks, then turn around and continue to complain the same things I say should be fixed.

So in closing that would make you a hypocrite grow up.



Maybe you should take your own advice... I was mocking you for your several inane drivel posts about captchas ( hint, they don't work and haven't for years ) and other inane crap like long wait periods when signing up as well as your "Gravity can do no wrong, users should just bend over and get nailed by them" attitude.
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#72 Heimdallr

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:19 PM

Don't be concerned about the Storage on Ymir yet please. This one is in testing and if it goes appropriately this will be a non-issue.

Yggdrasil : Will be exactly like Valk will be IE Open server with 3 character creates by Default, and 300 storage by default. This shouldn't be an issue due to the youth of the server not packing up and filling storage quite yet.

Valkyrie: Item limits will be relaxed somewhat, like common stuff will drop from monsters like Blue gems, flywings etc. Card limitations are still in discussion.

Bot situation: We will have to keep expanding the bot kill squad to include Yggdrasil.


Multi-client : We understand why the Valkyrie population wants it to stay the same as now, with it unlimited. But with it unlimited there is 0 reason for you to not make 20 accounts with 1 character each instead of fewer accts with more characters per account. Multi-clienting increases the load on our DB, lowers actual partying and game interaction and really is more costly for the game to deal with. multi-clienting has never been a bot prevention, but when we check IP and see 20 accounts on one IP we have a pretty good indicator of what is going on. Many valkyrie players look like bots with their play behavior because of how many accounts they use "because they can for free". That was never an intention of the F2P server but it was abused to great extent by otherwise perfectly acceptable players.

As we have stated, we will try to crack it ourselves, for client swapping, exe modding, sandboxing and any other tricks we come up with. If we can crack it, then it is not useful to implement, because then it will be a point of contention between the fair / limited and the cheating / multi-cliented. Discussion on how many to allow, I would love if we could do multi-client for non-VIP to be 2. But everytime I bring it up to any programmer at HQ or here for ROSE I get a look of "Are you nuts" that makes things about 200 x more complicated and fail prone.. Someone brought up the idea of 3 years of development to make a feature that is cracked in a week or delays other projects.. I think that limiting to more than 1 but less than x non-VIP is one of those too much work to implement scenarios.
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#73 Braska

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:25 PM

I can understand the Multi Client Situation on Valk, but whats the reasoning for Ymir? There can't be 20+ accs with only 1 char on em like Valk.

Restricting Clients isn't going to encourage partying. The only way to encourage people to party more is if there was any incentive to party. 50% penalty for 2 people isn't exactly going to change my mind to solo since i can make twice that (if not more) by teleporting around and killing by myself.

Edited by Braska, 25 March 2011 - 03:15 PM.

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#74 rueth

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:34 PM

Multi-client: It's not fair to those in Valk who DON'T have 20 accounts. I don't want to suddenly start paying for my other 1 account (which I worked hard on too) just because of this. I hope your team can crack it and not implement it if you can't limit it. Hating some of the restrictions for "free open server" thus far.
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#75 Puppet

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:34 PM

Don't be concerned about the Storage on Ymir yet please. This one is in testing and if it goes appropriately this will be a non-issue.

Yggdrasil : Will be exactly like Valk will be IE Open server with 3 character creates by Default, and 300 storage by default. This shouldn't be an issue due to the youth of the server not packing up and filling storage quite yet.

Valkyrie: Item limits will be relaxed somewhat, like common stuff will drop from monsters like Blue gems, flywings etc. Card limitations are still in discussion.

Bot situation: We will have to keep expanding the bot kill squad to include Yggdrasil.


Multi-client : We understand why the Valkyrie population wants it to stay the same as now, with it unlimited. But with it unlimited there is 0 reason for you to not make 20 accounts with 1 character each instead of fewer accts with more characters per account. Multi-clienting increases the load on our DB, lowers actual partying and game interaction and really is more costly for the game to deal with. multi-clienting has never been a bot prevention, but when we check IP and see 20 accounts on one IP we have a pretty good indicator of what is going on. Many valkyrie players look like bots with their play behavior because of how many accounts they use "because they can for free". That was never an intention of the F2P server but it was abused to great extent by otherwise perfectly acceptable players.

As we have stated, we will try to crack it ourselves, for client swapping, exe modding, sandboxing and any other tricks we come up with. If we can crack it, then it is not useful to implement, because then it will be a point of contention between the fair / limited and the cheating / multi-cliented. Discussion on how many to allow, I would love if we could do multi-client for non-VIP to be 2. But everytime I bring it up to any programmer at HQ or here for ROSE I get a look of "Are you nuts" that makes things about 200 x more complicated and fail prone.. Someone brought up the idea of 3 years of development to make a feature that is cracked in a week or delays other projects.. I think that limiting to more than 1 but less than x non-VIP is one of those too much work to implement scenarios.


your 2 issue right now are

The multi clienting idea that will have major backlash and

and

Ymir storage, if that stay as you mention you pretty much telling anyone that has well over 300 items in storage that they have no choice but to sub to be able to manage or for that matter store it.special;y screwed if they dont have alt account

Edited by Puppet, 25 March 2011 - 02:36 PM.

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