266 replies to this topic

[Kaizy]

Give me a bit of details on what you think a battle cleric should function as.

They can't be epic fighters, there is a point where we feel being a cleric surviving a PvM fight is fine, but being able to keep up in terms of EXP/hr to that of other classes is just making them a "generic" fighting class. Hope you understand where we are coming from, and as much as we would like to offer the clerics the building tools for battle we ask that you understand that being = to the fighting classes is not our goal. Being capable of lasting a PvM fight is idea for us, make it fun, but don't make it generic!

What a terrible post. No wonder Rose will never be as fun as it once was. I think Triggersoft (before evo) had a better idea about classes than you guys.

Edited by Kaizy, 03 September 2010 - 04:29 AM.

[Bendersmom]

The point that i dont get is that why are you guys forcing us to be one sided?, Don't you know (for some) that just being full support, getting spammed by "buffs plz" "heal plzz" and just buffing people is abit boring?. What im saying is that a battle cleric was possible before, it HAS BEEN DONE before and STILL is POSSIBLE to make a battle cleric now. So why change things that has been done? We cant be overpowered ( i dont even remember a time that we were ) So for me the purpose of those IM buffs was to buff people still and make use of those sp for heals and stuff and at the same time we could also deal a decent damage

I posted this in the Patch notes but probably fits in here as well.
Soda, that is why I am suggesting they really look at the Muse skill tree. I think some adjustments should be made as many of us have stated. Clerics are either overlooked or nerfed in most patches. Too many people think that if you want to go atk you should go mage and if u want to be supportive you should go FS cleric and that there should not be an attack cleric. I disagree. I think the more variety in builds, etc the more people will stick with the game to try out new characters.
Most other classes are hard to compare with the Muse class since most are all variations of attack characters. The only one that comes close is the Dealer class. Bourgs are the attack side and Arties the support side. Artis support by crafting but they also can be good at attack if built right. I think that same concept should be applied to the Cleric branch of the Muse tree. Mage should be built for main attack Class of the Muse tree. But I think that like the Artie, there should be those of the Cleric side that are full support and give up getting attack skills for more support skills, and a side that has good attack skills with some support skills. Like the Artie that goes for battle Artie, they have to give up some of their crafting skills to get the full attack ones.

I also think the cleric should be looked at as to other skills that will actually help us support like mspd, decloak, etc. And, as with other classes where their level and main stat effects their skills, our int and level should influence our buffs, heals, etc.

Tried to be more specific Cal. And maybe the "idea" of the cleric needs to evolve some from when it was first made.

Edited by Bendersmom, 03 September 2010 - 08:47 AM.

[Kaizy]

There are at least 3-4 options I can think of in a few seconds. I don't understand how Calanor and co. can't do the same.

Simple option that requires the least amount of work

Put Elemental bolt and Freezing chill in common skill tree. Keep Prerequisites. Gives clerics 2 extra stronger attacks but not overpowering as they don't have any meaningful debuffs.

Put mystic eye in common tab. Gives cleric a decloak.

Change Dragonskin to a self defense or mres buff. Maybe 5% each level. So at lv9 it could be a 40% buff. Helps the cleric survive and not fail. You could either make it a lower % like 35 and have it last longer or have it work like a raider's evasive and make the % higher like 50-60 and last only 20-30 seconds.

Also you could change first job staff mastery to not being required for the basic offensive skills (like mana spear/ice bolt) just like you did for the supportive skill tree. Keep it required for the aoes and voltage/fire ring.

Edited by Kaizy, 03 September 2010 - 09:05 AM.

[Phish]

Kaizy Dragon skin is already a 30% mdef passsive, changing it to a buff would actually be worse as you can use buff pots now anyway. I like putting those skills in the common treee though.

[Kaizy]

Kaizy Dragon skin is already a 30% mdef passsive, changing it to a buff would actually be worse as you can use buff pots now anyway. I like putting those skills in the common treee though.

Oh, I haven't played in forever. I thought it was still that fail 10%.

[Soda]

Too many people think that if you want to go atk you should go mage and if u want to be supportive you should go FS cleric and that there should not be an attack cleric. I disagree. I think the more variety in builds, etc the more people will stick with the game to try out new characters.

I totally hate this when people rub it in my face. I like trying out different kinds of builds for certain classes.. and clerics is the only class (for me) that is very challenging to make thats why i have one. I also agree with what you said, if they wont just limit us (not only for clerics but for all class) on skills with all that pre req. something it would be so cool to be different from others and trying out new things (Like what they did to champ, remove weap req.)

[Soda]

BUMP

[for more argument and drama :>]

[mgon154]

Thats why you can choose between Offensive side or being completely supportive ._., and an offensive type of cleric cant buff and heal as good as a supportive one.

And that's why the "mage" exists. Clerics are a class to support, not to fight 'only'. Yes, they do have attacking skills, but why aren't they as strong as other classes? The answer is simple. Because they are built PRIMARILY for support. Not Primarily for attack. They are 'meant' to have weaker skills. 'Primarily' is the key word here. They are primarily build for support, therefore they have no 'primary' attack skills. PERFECT for a cleric. They should remain as they are. If you want good offense, then choose the Mage side of a Muse. I'm surprised people even make battle clerics still.

[mgon154]

Give me a bit of details on what you think a battle cleric should function as.

They can't be epic fighters, there is a point where we feel being a cleric surviving a PvM fight is fine, but being able to keep up in terms of EXP/hr to that of other classes is just making them a "generic" fighting class. Hope you understand where we are coming from, and as much as we would like to offer the clerics the building tools for battle we ask that you understand that being = to the fighting classes is not our goal. Being capable of lasting a PvM fight is idea for us, make it fun, but don't make it generic!

Exactly my point. Clerics aren't meant to be epic and = to other fighting classes. They are built 'primarily' for support, with a few attacking skills if needed for PvM. Some people think this is unfair, but i understand it.

[mgon154]

What a terrible post. No wonder Rose will never be as fun as it once was. I think Triggersoft (before evo) had a better idea about classes than you guys.

How do you figure? I think what he's trying to say about 'generic' is, why give a few attack skills to a cleric in a generic way just to 'keep up' with other fighters? In other words, if clerics simply aren't primarily build for fighting, why waste time adding just a 'few' skills to 'help them keep up' with other fighters? It's a waste. They are decent enough for PvM. The few attacking skills they have will get you through a monster fight, which is fair enough because if you can't even beat a monster, then there's a problem. They're not trying to make clerics = to the other fighting classes lol. Be a champ, sheesh. It's clear to understand if you ask me lol Just imagine if they DID add them more attack skills, powerful ones. I can only imagine how unbalanced it would be if we had BUFFS and major offense. Unless it was completely balanced in a fair way, but that doesn't sound 'cleric' to me. If you want battle, be a mage, they can heal themselves and buff themselves enough for a good pvp. Nuff said.

[Phish]

No one asked for clerics to be on par with a mage or a champ offensively. And as Bendersmom pointed out Artisan are generally the 'support' dealer class by crafting items however their offensive abilities are still decent.


Not for nothing but keeping the class to the support role sounds pretty generic to me too.

[BrownBear]

And that's why the "mage" exists. Clerics are a class to support, not to fight 'only'. Yes, they do have attacking skills, but why aren't they as strong as other classes? The answer is simple. Because they are built PRIMARILY for support. Not Primarily for attack. They are 'meant' to have weaker skills. 'Primarily' is the key word here. They are primarily build for support, therefore they have no 'primary' attack skills. PERFECT for a cleric. They should remain as they are. If you want good offense, then choose the Mage side of a Muse. I'm surprised people even make battle clerics still.

Exactly my point. Clerics aren't meant to be epic and = to other fighting classes. They are built 'primarily' for support, with a few attacking skills if needed for PvM. Some people think this is unfair, but i understand it.

How do you figure? I think what he's trying to say about 'generic' is, why give a few attack skills to a cleric in a generic way just to 'keep up' with other fighters? In other words, if clerics simply aren't primarily build for fighting, why waste time adding just a 'few' skills to 'help them keep up' with other fighters? It's a waste. They are decent enough for PvM. The few attacking skills they have will get you through a monster fight, which is fair enough because if you can't even beat a monster, then there's a problem. They're not trying to make clerics = to the other fighting classes lol. Be a champ, sheesh. It's clear to understand if you ask me lol Just imagine if they DID add them more attack skills, powerful ones. I can only imagine how unbalanced it would be if we had BUFFS and major offense. Unless it was completely balanced in a fair way, but that doesn't sound 'cleric' to me. If you want battle, be a mage, they can heal themselves and buff themselves enough for a good pvp. Nuff said.

I would like to direct your attention to the "edit" and "multi-quote" buttons at the bottom of your post(s). Amazing innovations aren't they?

And yes, that had nothing to do with the content of your posts.

Edited by BrownBear, 08 September 2010 - 05:56 PM.

[Blitzkrieg]

........ just 1 suggestion...........
make clerics get 3% more gain of their own buffs when they buff themselves
and give them some survivability passive...... like more magic tool block rate

[Soda]

No one asked for clerics to be on par with a mage or a champ offensively. And as Bendersmom pointed out Artisan are generally the 'support' dealer class by crafting items however their offensive abilities are still decent.


Not for nothing but keeping the class to the support role sounds pretty generic to me too.

This is my point, like i told frank yesterday, artisans are built for crafting right? but how come they can be decent in killing aswell?

@mgon154 : if you've read my other posts, what i mean by battle clerics is that they can support (buffing and healing) but can do decent damage aswell and like what i said on the quote "offensive type of cleric cant buff and heal as good as a supportive one" that means there is still abit of disadvantage there. Let me put it this way, battle clerics can still heal allies while in wars, they can still kill a few and thats their only advantage, rather than an fs that just heals (or maybe mute) they can make a party survive better but thats all they do just heal (<----- which i dont wish to do , sorry if i dont want to be your "heal and buff slave "


i also told frank yesterday and he agreed, ( i also posted it here) make a skill (debuff), or a strong dealing damage skill which frank suggested that only a battle cleric can access so that fs clerics cant do debuffs or deal damage what so ever with that certain type of skill.

[Soda]

Give me a bit of details on what you think a battle cleric should function as.

They can't be epic fighters, there is a point where we feel being a cleric surviving a PvM fight is fine, but being able to keep up in terms of EXP/hr to that of other classes is just making them a "generic" fighting class. Hope you understand where we are coming from, and as much as we would like to offer the clerics the building tools for battle we ask that you understand that being = to the fighting classes is not our goal. Being capable of lasting a PvM fight is idea for us, make it fun, but don't make it generic!

r u serious? o.O, before a cleric can solo (PVM), but now how the exp works dont tell me a cleric can still solo and seriously the 2 stuns (and one useless skill which deals low damage [mana wave])? you really think that a cleric now can survive in pvm with that 3 crap skills? you've got to be kidding me

[mgon154]

No one asked for clerics to be on par with a mage or a champ offensively. And as Bendersmom pointed out Artisan are generally the 'support' dealer class by crafting items however their offensive abilities are still decent.


Not for nothing but keeping the class to the support role sounds pretty generic to me too.

True, but as far as a clerics role is compared to an Artisan, clerics are even more lowly and have an even more focused primary role than an Artisan, which still makes them the weaker vessel I'll rephrase myself too. Clerics aren't 'created' for pvp, but they can be 'built' for pvp. I worded myself wrong. Created, and built are different words, my mistake.

[mgon154]

I would like to direct your attention to the "edit" and "multi-quote" buttons at the bottom of your post(s). Amazing innovations aren't they?

And yes, that had nothing to do with the content of your posts.

lol Thanks BrownBear And Soda, I agree with you I'm just trying to give you the viewpoint of what the game moderators are thinking . They feel, and it should be simple to understand, that clerics, true clerics that show the meaning of their role are simply not suppose to be offense, therefore you wouldn't be, an shouldn't be, as 'satisfied' with their pvp skills. They were 'created' for a purpose and that purpose wasn't to fight another player which explains why they don't have extraordinary pvp skills, but if a champ was extra weak and had a few buffing skills, people would say that's not right either. I'm not trying to argue, im just trying to tell you what the viewpoint and purpose of a cleric is to the creators of this game

Edited by mgon154, 09 September 2010 - 07:25 AM.

[Soda]

And Soda, I agree with you I'm just trying to give you the viewpoint of what the game moderators are thinking . They feel (PERIOD)

First of all without us players , the game wouldn't be alive at all so its not my problem on what they think or what they are trying to point out. It annoys me that what they think is what matters, bs. Tell me again, what is the purpose of Proposal & Suggestion thread again?

[Bllackberry]

........ just 1 suggestion...........
make clerics get 3% more gain of their own buffs when they buff themselves
and give them some survivability passive...... like more magic tool block rate

i believe theres a few passives you can get to increase def and the magic tool block rate. whether or not you have enough SP to get it is another story.

[Bendersmom]

True, but as far as a clerics role is compared to an Artisan, clerics are even more lowly and have an even more focused primary role than an Artisan, which still makes them the weaker vessel I'll rephrase myself too. Clerics aren't 'created' for pvp, but they can be 'built' for pvp. I worded myself wrong. Created, and built are different words, my mistake.

Clerics are more lowly???? So the cleric role is more lowly than all others in game? I am hoping english is not your first language and you didn't really mean that. And actually they really can't be built for PVP now. They used to be able to, but now....not so much. People can try and some succeed to a degree but in reality they are very weak. The best thing they have at this point is a few stuns and heals.

Secondly, you are not a developer and do not work for Gravity I am assuming so how can you speak for them? Not that we know who you are since you do not post that. I understand what Calanor is saying, but that doesn't mean the concept of the cleric can't change or some of the suggestions will be ignored.

Thirdly, this is the proposal and suggestion section. It is ok for all other classes to post suggestions for improvements to their class but when clerics do it we get the whole "that is not your job, you should not be that way, etc." Well that is BS. We are posting suggestions and having a discussion on things we think might make game play more interesting for Full Support Clerics, Attack Clerics and Hybrids. They are mearly suggestions. Do you own a cleric? Use it in all aspects of the game - PVM solo, PVM party, UW, TG, etc? A lot of people have clerics but use them for their own buff slave. There are others of us who use cleric as their main account.

And last but not least, in PVM we are not very good at monsters our level. If we had to farm solo with a full support build we would remain very low level and it would take forever to get any exp,(especially since we get less exp now). So people say well of course....you have to party. But I hate to leech and not being able to kill well makes me feel like a leech. Yes, I help suppost the party with buffs and heals but still, we constantly get accused of leeching. I have even had people say that the cleric should not get equal drops since we don't do much. I do not like to feel like a servant or slave and should not be put in that "lowly" position.

[Soda]

I totally agree with mom about people having clerics just to buff themselves, seriously you've got to be thankful there are still people willing to play cleric in UW. Thats why hybrid clerics are good cause like i said before its gonna be so boring just buffing and healing people (In my case tho).

{edit} ive seen other rose vids recently and their clerics can still fight in uw's.. (just giving you guys an idea of other rose)

Edited by Soda, 09 September 2010 - 10:13 PM.

[Phish]

i believe theres a few passives you can get to increase def and the magic tool block rate. whether or not you have enough SP to get it is another story.

Yeah thats one of the points I am trying to make, you need to max so many skills to even get the block rate passives, or ap passives or acc passives; whichever you need to get. A support cleric can't even make full use of the block and defense passives because they have to use up all their points on mediocre attack skills and offensives pasives to eve nget them; leaving them out of precious buffs and heals.

[Kaizy]

mgon is just spouting bs imo. Another person with little experience.

Who cares what the dev team wants or what the moderators want? It should be about what the players want. It should be about fun. You can still keep the game balanced whilst also making it fun. A class with virtually no attack skills to help them solo isn't fun. (The two they have are terribly weak and cast slow as hell.)

Someone is going to be like omg party then, but not everyone can party all the time or find a party and the population of Rose isn't the biggest so don't bother saying clerics shouldn't solo.

Block rate and survivability options should be more accessible for a support cleric. Offensive/PvP options should be the ones that require using more SP/prerequisites not some simple passives.

Edited by Kaizy, 09 September 2010 - 11:09 PM.

[HolyEagle]

I will have to agree with Calanor, I wouldn't like to see an epic Cleric fighter.
Only because its called Cleric.

Since the thread is called cleric improvements I would like to add some input.
Clerics need desperately much more def. A full support cleric is a matter of one stun. In order to support properly a party in any case you need time.
Drastic increase in defense will give this time. I have read somewhere else about increasing range of casting heals/skills but I dont agree with the idea of "range" in general since it is not fair for melee classes.

[Soda]

I will have to agree with Calanor, I wouldn't like to see an epic Cleric fighter.
Only because its called Cleric.

Since the thread is called cleric improvements I would like to add some input.
Clerics need desperately much more def. A full support cleric is a matter of one stun. In order to support properly a party in any case you need time.
Drastic increase in defense will give this time. I have read somewhere else about increasing range of casting heals/skills but I dont agree with the idea of "range" in general since it is not fair for melee classes.

And yet u tried making a battle cleric yourself.

{edit} of not increase in range for skills and heals i want to see increase range in weaps , since we have the weakest attack at least some range would help.

Edited by Soda, 10 September 2010 - 03:34 AM.