202 replies to this topic

[GrapefruitGod]

The name sounds so familair, but i cant seem to remember. Why exactly was he banned?

Because he's a dragoon. He even uses a one-handed sword !

[tainguyen]

Security cameras are always watching, yet theft still exists. You said yourself that it's for most cases, but as long as it's not in all cases, it's not good enough. There still is room for potential bug abuse, and there could potentially be a big argument about it. Better to eliminate the source before it becomes a problem. That said, if the bug is fixed by next tournament, I do not have any objections about letting fighters participate. Balance is a whole other issue, but an easily abusable bug should bar that class from participating. Sure, it's unfair for the twin fighters that want to participate, but it would fall on the developer's shoulders that this bug hasn't been fixed. Why else would I suggest that shadow walk and camo be disabled from the tournament? The fact is that those skills are bugged and can be abused. Who is going to sit there and time each person for 30 seconds to make sure that they're not using it again before the cooldown is up? It's not worth the trouble and we're better off just eliminating the source of the problem before it becomes an issue in the actual tournament.

I don't even care about whether or not summoners are allowed to participate anymore, but as for the fighters, as long as the bug still exists, I'm not changing my stance. If ninja transform becomes classified as a bug, I wouldn't object to eliminating ninjas from participating in the tournament. I've already made my points clear, and it's obvious that neither side will reach an agreement, so it's up to the GM's to make the final decision.

Zzz, fine, I +1 you. Out of the 64 or whatever participants, most likely 4-7 will abuse it. Having at least 1 escaping is unacceptable. I am down for or against them in. I'm neutral and shall let gm or whoever take over. Idc if twin spam me with bug as I know how to go against it well, idc if they are banned as I have an arsenal of characters to choose from.
***any of you twin players that want to participate should voice their opinions. If not, I propose a ban. If someone speaks, I will be neutral.

[tainguyen]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=vKFfMr34kSM
read title also you don't see animation going off aka skill animation canceling also known as animation canceling.

Where is the animation cancel? Its only spamming the bug to make it look like skil canceling. I've been playing twins a lot, and even when I see twin animation dissapearing, I can also see the animation in my mind. On the actual twin players screen, all animation goes through. To other ppl it looks like animation cancelling. The part where the person is getting eletricuted seems like skill cancelling but spirit spear has fast animation, in combo with bug, and it being the pov of the atked player, it may seem like animation cancelling but it isn't.
*idc if twins are banned or not. Don't want to deal with it.
Edit: if someone knows how to animation cancel, please please show me. Skill canceling rolling grable or rising drop kick or infinite kicking would be nice. In the video infinite kicking has slow animation, wonder why twin didn't choose to cancel animation? Perhaps because you can't. Or if u can, I'm 100% towards the ban of twins. Some one show me proof instead of using dif skills after another and claiming it as skill canceling.

Edited by tainguyen, 06 December 2011 - 08:35 PM.

[StormHaven]

Where is the animation cancel? Its only spamming the bug to make it look like skil canceling. I've been playing twins a lot, and even when I see twin animation dissapearing, I can also see the animation in my mind. On the actual twin players screen, all animation goes through. To other ppl it looks like animation cancelling. The part where the person is getting eletricuted seems like skill cancelling but spirit spear has fast animation, in combo with bug, and it being the pov of the atked player, it may seem like animation cancelling but it isn't.
*idc if twins are banned or not. Don't want to deal with it.
Edit: if someone knows how to animation cancel, please please show me. Skill canceling rolling grable or rising drop kick or infinite kicking would be nice. In the video infinite kicking has slow animation, wonder why twin didn't choose to cancel animation? Perhaps because you can't. Or if u can, I'm 100% towards the ban of twins. Some one show me proof instead of using dif skills after another and claiming it as skill canceling.

you really don't fully understand what animation canceling is do you... other examples are SD which when animation canceled as in no animation only the dmg/flinch is shown or Pre RoP WMs which could animation cancel and not show the casting animation but the skill will still go off. The same concept for the twins, the twin will move but the actually skill will not show. Not only skills can be animation canceled throughout DS only certain skills have had the ability,

Edited by StormHaven, 06 December 2011 - 08:49 PM.

[tainguyen]

you really don't fully understand what animation canceling is do you... other examples are SD which when animation canceled as in no animation only the dmg/flinch is shown or Pre RoP WMs which could animation cancel and not show the casting animation but the skill will still go off. The same concept for the twins, the twin will move but the actually skill will not show. Not only skills can be animation canceled throughout DS only certain skills have had the ability,

As i said, where is the animation canceling???? Maybe use the twin POV and you will see all animations going through. How do we make a video? ill show you the what REAL animation cancelling is (sd is one, sky penetration is one, twin fusion skill is one), and ill also show you a 2 sided POV of attacker and attacked. Ill say it again as most ppl dont read, Twin screen: twin does not dissapear, and does not skill cancel. Other ppl screen: Twin dissapears most of the time in bug mode; if they are not in bug mode, there may be some cases where twin dissapears but no, its just animation going through.
This is the same concept as Flash grenade for gren. U throw a grendae, but nothing happens and they run away. On the other side of the screen though, they are actually blind.

Edit: Or you can just show the twins side. Ive never done any skill canceling on twin, but it can exist. Stop hiding the secret and show everyone if it is real, and to help developers fix it.
Edit: Please just validate your videos by using the twins POV as i know that twins do not appear on others screen when they are in bug mode. (if they arent, i dont think they disapear, but i havent had any complaints about twin dissapearing during unbugged pvp.) I really hate debating, argueing. Just validate your skill cancelling please. ****It will make everything way more simple for others to see when they are also not in bug mode. Just show skill cancel on rolling grable or infinite kicking.

Edited by tainguyen, 06 December 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Maronu]

@ Manoru

Fighters can use the animation bug in an actually pvp match and it makes them much harder to kill as you can't see where the twin is.

As opposed to imaginary pvp? Unsure how that improves their survival.

@Maronu

The problem with the no cooldown thing is that you are able to spam the skills in quick succession, which leads to abnormally high amounts of damage if the other player is locked by another teammate. It is already recognized as an unintended function. The reason why the ninja transform things is separate from this is that it's currently not classified as a bug. I've already asked about it and the stance on it right now is that it would not result in a disqualification. The thing about ninja transform is that it can be argued as either a bug or intended as part of the toggle mechanic. No one besides the original developer of this skill and toggle skills would have the answer to that. However, that's a whole different matter entirely. I can explain it in more detail if you wish.

If damage is a problem use april fools so they hit 1's, or quickly swift to save teammates? And I'm really not sure why using lower level weapons/broken weapon or any other reasonable suggestion that was made wouldn't be okay. Increase the consequences for abusing the glitch to an account ban if necessary perhaps?... But if everyone is completely terrified of the twins and the thought that they have a glitch that could be used, I guess the class can't be allowed to play at all....

But I would like to remind you that this whole argument was started based upon your desire to take precautions against both the Dragonkin classes.

In line with that cautious thinking, I feel we might want to consider banning our Ninja's as well. Using toggling as a canceling ability may not currently be classified as a bug, but according to the developers it may actually be a bug. If we want to take precautions with bugs, the reasonable thing to do is just to ban Ninja's as well.

[StormHaven]

Eh, it's hard to explain the best way i can put it is pvp a fighter that can do it successfully and see for yourself.

Edited by StormHaven, 06 December 2011 - 09:31 PM.

[Yurai]

As opposed to imaginary pvp? Unsure how that improves their survival.



If damage is a problem use april fools so they hit 1's, or quickly swift to save teammates? And I'm really not sure why using lower level weapons/broken weapon or any other reasonable suggestion that was made wouldn't be okay. Increase the consequences for abusing the glitch to an account ban if necessary perhaps?... But if everyone is completely terrified of the twins and the thought that they have a glitch that could be used, I guess the class can't be allowed to play at all....

But I would like to remind you that this whole argument was started based upon your desire to take precautions against both the Dragonkin classes.

In line with that cautious thinking, I feel we might want to consider banning our Ninja's as well. Using toggling as a canceling ability may not currently be classified as a bug, but according to the developers it may actually be a bug. If we want to take precautions with bugs, the reasonable thing to do is just to ban Ninja's as well.

The problem lies within being able to differentiate the bug with lag. While I did say that precautions should be taken against both Dragonkin classes, the issue right now is concerning the bug with the fighters. Once again, the ninja issue is not classified as a bug, so it is not considered bug abuse. However, if it does get labeled as a bug, by all means, ban ninjas from the tournament until it is fixed.

[tainguyen]

Eh, it's hard to explain the best way i can put it is pvp a fighter that can do it successfully and see for yourself.

Please read what i said. What you see vs what they see is completely different. I asked how to make a video to prove this, and that i will appear like animation canceling on one side, while it is normal on the other.

If you dont know anything about this skill animation cancelling itself, and how it is activated, i cannot agree with you as my statement above says. In the video, infinite kicking was used with infinite kicking with bug, so it is not animation canceling. twin just disapeared. One part on the video, spirit spear was used again with spirit spear in bug mode, and twin disappeared, but its still the same has the same animation time. I may have been playing twin for too long, but even if the twin disappears on my screen during pvp, the actual animations are burned in my head. In your video, i can see everything. Any other twins here can confirm what they are seeing too?

A valid video would be one without bug as it gets rid of most of the twin disappearances. Showing a skill on twin side will also fully show twin cancelling if it exists, without them disappearing.
The videos posted is very misleading if comparing it with skill animation due to bug and different pov.

I really wish i can skill cancel, i would abuse this in pve with the bug to the max. I found another bug, but right now i am investigating the core on why it happens. I know how to get there, but am trying to isolate all other varibles. As for what it is, id like to perhaps tell a few so we can fix the problem, but not everyone as everyone will start abusing it like the bug already. Perhaps a gm pm a personal message to me so i can discuss.

[Maronu]

The problem lies within being able to differentiate the bug with lag. While I did say that precautions should be taken against both Dragonkin classes, the issue right now is concerning the bug with the fighters. Once again, the ninja issue is not classified as a bug, so it is not considered bug abuse. However, if it does get labeled as a bug, by all means, ban ninjas from the tournament until it is fixed.

Given the string of arguments presented, it really seems like that is the most rational thing to do if we are going to ban fighters... =/

Edited by Maronu, 06 December 2011 - 10:23 PM.

[JoeyLe]

The problem lies within being able to differentiate the bug with lag. While I did say that precautions should be taken against both Dragonkin classes, the issue right now is concerning the bug with the fighters. Once again, the ninja issue is not classified as a bug, so it is not considered bug abuse. However, if it does get labeled as a bug, by all means, ban ninjas from the tournament until it is fixed.

why are summoners dragged into this when the main issues are twins and ninjas glitch. Please dont group us together and ban us just beacause were also a dragonkin class. Your logic for banning twins or summoners all together because of some "unforseen imbalances" as u keep saying, is not even a good reason to ban a class. Summoners moves are straightforward, and arent complex like twins skills. Basicly all our moves are the same mechanics as warmages...u cast skill after 1-1.5 cast time, hit player with move, player recieves damage....thats pretty much it. I can somewhat understand why twins would be banned, but ur reasons for banning summoners is ill-supported and not well thought out

Edited by JoeyLe, 06 December 2011 - 10:27 PM.

[StormHaven]

. Not all skills can be animation canceled throughout DS only certain skills have had the ability,

[tainguyen]

As opposed to imaginary pvp? Unsure how that improves their survival.



If damage is a problem use april fools so they hit 1's, or quickly swift to save teammates? And I'm really not sure why using lower level weapons/broken weapon or any other reasonable suggestion that was made wouldn't be okay. Increase the consequences for abusing the glitch to an account ban if necessary perhaps?... But if everyone is completely terrified of the twins and the thought that they have a glitch that could be used, I guess the class can't be allowed to play at all....

But I would like to remind you that this whole argument was started based upon your desire to take precautions against both the Dragonkin classes.

In line with that cautious thinking, I feel we might want to consider banning our Ninja's as well. Using toggling as a canceling ability may not currently be classified as a bug, but according to the developers it may actually be a bug. If we want to take precautions with bugs, the reasonable thing to do is just to ban Ninja's as well.

I agree with this post. Right now everyone is too afraid of dishonest players, twins damg, and glitch. IMO, the bug is easily seen as shown in the video. The twins dissapearnces is too high, and should not be like that. GMs can easy spot it during group locks or single locks as they will be paying attention to these. No one is randomly running around distracting gms, ppl will move accordingly to help teammates and gang on single players.

As for ninja, i propose ninja toggling banned instead of banning ninja themselves. Ninja toggling has been around for awhile and i am very sure that it was not to meant to be able to stop knockdowns. If it was, them im 100% sure that it was not meant to cancel falcons and wolves as it requires timing (knockbacks do not). I dont think it is fair to be able to escape broom jab, gust slash, final descison, and including wolves, falcons. Im pretty sure this is a bug due to the fact that ninjas can dodge many skills.

If im not able to use twin, ill be definitely abusing ninjas toggling skills against pally, myrm, savages, and pathfinders to leave unscratched and counter atk.

Edit: im 90% for the ban of twins. Too much problems, and the fact that one person may not be caught i find a problem. Depends on gms ability to see the field. I havent been in tournament before so i cant say they have a hawks eye.

Edit: if ninja toggle is taken out, then only 2 skills will be lost. Mist vanish is a good catcher and good combo locker. Mist vanish is a good catcher and combo extender.
Ninjas have many catching skills already. Everyone who played with ninja and knows how to play them well, can survive without these skills.

Edited by tainguyen, 06 December 2011 - 10:44 PM.

[tainguyen]

Just bringing this back up, but we should do 2 tournaments. One for humans, one for dragonkins. This way we can test the extent of shamans and twins.

Another idea is having 2 tournaments. One for only humans; and one for humans+dragonkins to test the waters). This way, ppl who choose to decide to join human+dragonkin have no room to complain.

You can only sign up for 1 tournament though if using the first or second suggestion.

Tournament with only dragonkin classes can be used next month, or perhaps during the same time. Im not sure how the timing works on the tournaments.

Just throwing ideas out there to make it more fair for other ppl who wants to play as these classes.

[Yurai]

I agree with this post. Right now everyone is too afraid of dishonest players, twins damg, and glitch. IMO, the bug is easily seen as shown in the video. The twins dissapearnces is too high, and should not be like that. GMs can easy spot it during group locks or single locks as they will be paying attention to these. No one is randomly running around distracting gms, ppl will move accordingly to help teammates and gang on single players.

As for ninja, i propose ninja toggling banned instead of banning ninja themselves. Ninja toggling has been around for awhile and i am very sure that it was not to meant to be able to stop knockdowns. If it was, them im 100% sure that it was not meant to cancel falcons and wolves as it requires timing (knockbacks do not). I dont think it is fair to be able to escape broom jab, gust slash, final descison, and including wolves, falcons. Im pretty sure this is a bug due to the fact that ninjas can dodge many skills.

If im not able to use twin, ill be definitely abusing ninjas toggling skills against pally, myrm, savages, and pathfinders to leave unscratched and counter atk.

Edit: im 90% for the ban of twins. Too much problems, and the fact that one person may not be caught i find a problem. Depends on gms ability to see the field. I havent been in tournament before so i cant say they have a hawks eye.

Edit: if ninja toggle is taken out, then only 2 skills will be lost. Mist vanish is a good catcher and good combo locker. Mist vanish is a good catcher and combo extender.
Ninjas have many catching skills already. Everyone who played with ninja and knows how to play them well, can survive without these skills.

I strongly disagree with this. Ninja mode skills are essential to the ninja's play style and if you PvP well, you'd know how important sky pen and mist vanish are. If you play like some people... well... that's your problem.

[tainguyen]

I strongly disagree with this. Ninja mode skills are essential to the ninja's play style and if you PvP well, you'd know how important sky pen and mist vanish are. If you play like some people... well... that's your problem.

Idc if it is taken out or not. I can live with or without it. The increased cooldown on sky penetration didn't bother me at all. I myself, use sky penetration and mist vanish as they are good skills to use in the midst of battle as improvisions, or saving/extend locking in team.
Without them, I can also live wihout it. I can just use aerial frenzy, relaunch, ect. Any skills in my arsenal.

Between the ninja toggling, I use it myself during pvp when knockeddown or agains falcons and wolves since back then I did not consider it cheap as I read in iah forums about ninja toggling. As of now, I am too used to toggling and untoggling and cannot stop even if someone asked. Its a habit.
I don't think its fair to avoid all those skills, but if its considered fair, than that's fine with me. I like the concept in ninja as ninjas from animes use techniques to shed armor to avoid damg.

Edit: what do you think about a cooldown on ninja toggle? Just curious. Fusion for twins have slow animation and cooldowns, which makes it way different in gameplay as ninjas. It just makes things harder.
Edit: it will definitely mess with combos that involve switching back and forth, but I find it rather interesting. I've became bored of ninja mechanics after pvping with them for so long and need a challenge. Ninja cooldown is just for my ammusment and shouldn't be changed in general for other players.

Edited by tainguyen, 07 December 2011 - 12:14 AM.

[JoeyLe]

I strongly disagree with this. Ninja mode skills are essential to the ninja's play style and if you PvP well, you'd know how important sky pen and mist vanish are. If you play like some people... well... that's your problem.

I also have an archer and i find it really op and unfair how ninjas can manuver out of my wolf rushes knock-back or any other of my moves. Ive read plenty of forums of other servers confirming ninjas toggle skill as imbalanced,unfair, and absolutely a glitch in which the developers had not intended it to be. It would be more balanced and fair if ninja toggleing was banned in the tournament

Edit: Even u yurai would have to agree its an unfair glitch as u claim that ur not biased

Edited by JoeyLe, 07 December 2011 - 02:36 PM.

[StormHaven]

I also have an archer and i find it really op and unfair how ninjas can manuver out of my wolf rushes knock-back or any other of my moves. Ive read plenty of forums of other servers confirming ninjas toggle skill as imbalanced,unfair, and absolutely a glitch in which the developers had not intended it to be. It would be more balanced and fair if ninja toggleing was banned in the tournament

Edit: Even u yurai would have to agree its an unfair glitch as u claim that ur not biased

It takes practice using the glitch to out maneuver a PF using that glitch. Even if they out maneuver your wolf PFs have an abundance of skills to out counter that toggle.

edit: This may be only me but I don't see the toggle as being that much of an advantage for ninjas.

Edited by StormHaven, 07 December 2011 - 02:46 PM.

[GrapefruitGod]

Never had a problem with it personally

[Yurai]

I also have an archer and i find it really op and unfair how ninjas can manuver out of my wolf rushes knock-back or any other of my moves. Ive read plenty of forums of other servers confirming ninjas toggle skill as imbalanced,unfair, and absolutely a glitch in which the developers had not intended it to be. It would be more balanced and fair if ninja toggleing was banned in the tournament

Edit: Even u yurai would have to agree its an unfair glitch as u claim that ur not biased

I don't know who you've been playing, but I guarantee there's no one who can get out of wolf rushes on our server, at least not at a reliable rate. Also, you're refusing to show that the other forums are divided on the issue since it can be argued as a bug, but can also be argued as a game mechanic, which Altuz of the IAH forums has described it. You're the one being biased by not including all the relevant information; don't push that label onto me. For a "glitch" whose existence has been known for over a year and a half, it sure must be difficult to fix.

[JoeyLe]

I don't know who you've been playing, but I guarantee there's no one who can get out of wolf rushes on our server, at least not at a reliable rate. Also, you're refusing to show that the other forums are divided on the issue since it can be argued as a bug, but can also be argued as a game mechanic, which Altuz of the IAH forums has described it. You're the one being biased by not including all the relevant information; don't push that label onto me. For a "glitch" whose existence has been known for over a year and a half, it sure must be difficult to fix.

I could care less if this skill was indeed a glitch or not. The fact is that its unfair and i would be pretty sure u would agree if this skill was of some other class other than ninja

Edited by JoeyLe, 07 December 2011 - 03:05 PM.

[Endbringer]

To whomever said summoners summons die super fast in naked PvP. I guess taking 4-8k damage per sniping while having 398k hp is dying super fast, amirite?



Here is the SS upclose for you too: http://cubeupload.com/im/7U5KOu.jpg (until its taken down)

Oh lets not forget i can unsummon him or any other summon for basically a free full MP and half HP heal. Summoners sure are underpowered in group PvP. I didn't even have to mention the burn on meteor, earthquakes debuffs or mana burn!

[StormHaven]

To whomever said summoners summons die super fast in naked PvP. I guess taking 4-8k damage per sniping while having 398k hp is dying super fast, amirite?



Here is the SS upclose for you too: http://cubeupload.com/im/7U5KOu.jpg (until its taken down)

Oh lets not forget i can unsummon him or any other summon for basically a free full MP and half HP heal. Summoners sure are underpowered in group PvP. I didn't even have to mention the burn on meteor, earthquakes debuffs or mana burn!

so much hp naked

[tainguyen]

I find the ninja toggle unfair, but it depends. If no one cares about it then I'm fine.

Reasons it can be unfair: avoidance of final decision, gust slash, mist vanish, broom jab, (knight gust slash like move?). And also, if you are good enough, wolf and falcons.
This makes it extremely hard for other players to catch, especially savages.

As I said, idc if it is removed or not. I'm playing ninja so it wouldn't make sense for me to lower my survival rate.

Also, I think it is a bug that is too much worth the trouble for them to fix. I'm 100% sure this was an unintended bug, but they don't want to fix it.
If twin bug is never fixed, would it mean that it is not a bug? Meaning... Everyone can abuse it just like ninja toggling? Ill send in a ticket on iah to see. Maybe japanese if my japanese is good enough.

[Kazu731]

Except Twins had an equally large bug before this bug that got fixed.