305 replies to this topic

[frankSG07]

Elaborate stupidity?

U might wanna back read so u know who am I refering to.

[Inubashiri]

Exactly! And whats your problem with retards?

No problem, only problem is when people start lobbing grenades at one another, it serves no purpose what so ever. You can expression your opinion without the use of words like "retard", which by the way means "to hold back" in the dictionary.

[IronPlushy]

No problem, only problem is when people start lobbing grenades at one another, it serves no purpose what so ever. You can expression your opinion without the use of words like "retard", which by the way means "to hold back" in the dictionary.

Which in this context refers to people holding back the game's development.

[D111]

overall? you can tell yourself. but with that out, either i propose the sp timer to be removed (after-cast 10 sec delay on gfist is still fine), or i go with xellie idea, which is better than nothing and at least doesn't turn you to a sitting duck.

Yea like Xellie proposed, at least give us a 50 sp pool so we can get away and not be sitting lame ready to die with no counter.

[D111]

Also, Frank and Ironplushy, please stop taking us off topic. PM your insults to one another or to me if they are at me.
We would like to keep this topic open and runing for discussion.

[Aeroku]

I dunno, I think it's kind of fitting that the ultimate "RELEASE ALL OF YOUR POWER AT ONCE" strike leaves you severely debilitated afterwards. Puts some thought/preperation into when you should use it.

Since they (rightfully) murdered Clashing, it doesn't look like Trans/2nd class skills are immune to the fist of "balance". (Pun intended)

If it's WoE, I have little sympathy for Suras that are upset. "Use teamwork to overcome Suras!" has been a common chant to counter complaints, so now I guess Suras can use teamwork to protect themselves when they're vulnerable.

I'm a little more receptive to an MVP/PVE problem with this, but at the same time it'd be mitigated by simply having someone else tanking, right? Seems like the issue is you want to gfist (super all out attack blah blah blah) and then be able to run from any retaliation an enemy might throw out. I've personally never been keen on the best MVP methods basically revolving around running away before bosses can take a shot at you after you sock em for hundreds of thousands of damage. It doesn't really resemble a boss fight. It certainly doesn't promote party play for MVPs.

sura's using teamwork to protect themselves when they're vulnerable? how are they supposed to do that if they can't do anything or even contribute anything to the party for "teamwork" after a fist in woe? might as well bwing to inn then.

mvp/pve wise, be able to run any retaliation an enemy might throw out? lets discuss this.

- you can fwing after a fist whether or not you get sp delay. natural spawn only. you can do this with any class.
- in ET, you can't really retaliate. even if fist now has the aftercast delay.
- if i had like a 99 biochemist, i can easily do high end mvp, get sacrament, bomb once, fwing/bwing, come back, until its dead. even so as some other classes too.

overall, i do get you, but the game can't be as real as what it may be irl wise. in irl there is no such thing as fwing, bwing, ygg seeds, or w/e. this is a game, not everything is real (i don't get how say 10 AB heals you for full hp in 1 sec after you get a big cut from say, valk rand. such a miracle)

[Aeroku]

It's a pre-rebirth skill that still owns to this day. At least let them have a big disadvantage (JUST FOR 10 SECONDS) after using it.

so if its a pre-rebirth skill, it needs a big disadvantage?

k guys, can you please nerf bomb, fcp, zen, EDP, etc while you're at it? thanks.

that aside, it doesn't matter about pre-rebirth skill or trans skill and what not. sura already got a big disadvantage from after cast delay alone (disabling pure fist sura type). with balance patch around, some other skills even got buffed above what gfist can do.

[DeltaRay]

The delay should include zen etc then too, otherwise you could use those 10 seconds to prepare another fist.

you do that and the pvmers and mvps will come complain then.

[Randalf]

sura's using teamwork to protect themselves when they're vulnerable? how are they supposed to do that if they can't do anything or even contribute anything to the party for "teamwork" after a fist in woe? might as well bwing to inn then.

mvp/pve wise, be able to run any retaliation an enemy might throw out? lets discuss this.

- you can fwing after a fist whether or not you get sp delay. natural spawn only. you can do this with any class.
- in ET, you can't really retaliate. even if fist now has the aftercast delay.
- if i had like a 99 biochemist, i can easily do high end mvp, get sacrament, bomb once, fwing/bwing, come back, until its dead. even so as some other classes too.

overall, i do get you, but the game can't be as real as what it may be irl wise. in irl there is no such thing as fwing, bwing, ygg seeds, or w/e. this is a game, not everything is real (i don't get how say 10 AB heals you for full hp in 1 sec after you get a big cut from say, valk rand. such a miracle)

What I meant by using teamwork I will try to demonstrate with an example: A lot of people will say "Pneuma!" to defend against certain very powerful attacks. As any class besides an Aco, you have to rely on your teammates to Pneuma you. You really have no sway over whether you live or not. A Sura after Gfist could be seen the same way. You need your allies to figuratively Pneuma you.

Yeah you can fwing with any class, and I don't really think that's right either. I'd prefer an MVP debuff that prevents teleporting or something, but I doubt we'll ever see it. However, snapping to get out of range of an MVP is a lot more time-efficient than fwinging somewhere randomly and hoping you get back before competition. Two sides of the same problem coin.

I'm relatively sure Storm Blast was nerfed enough to not do a ton of damage (may be wrong), but if it is still capable of one-shotting I'd be all for it. That sort of power should have some sort of drawback defensively. Heck, if Storm Blast still one shots AoE-wise I'd be half inclined to suggest it hurt the caster as well.

I do realize a lot of what I'm asking is outside the scope of what Gravity is willing to do though, because it requires fundamental changes in the way the game is designed.

If you CAN just fwing after a Gfist, what exactly is the major loss to not being able to snap afterwards (outside of ET where no one can wing) in an MVP/PVE setting? The ability to get back faster?

[Xellie]

you do that and the pvmers and mvps will come complain then.

one shot with mental potions or lose to genetics anyway, the choice is yours~!~!~!~!

You know this is a no win situation anyway.

[Carp]

you do that and the pvmers and mvps will come complain then.

Ppl who says things like these havent really participated in real mvping (competitive one). There are only 2 efficient classes to MVP - genes and suras, now they just removed the suras on the list making ONLY genes "kings of mvps", how does it make MVP environment better?

Edited by Carp, 16 December 2011 - 02:05 PM.

[D111]

The problem they have created is a bunch of people are going to be switching Mains,
next we will have a bunch of threads saying Nerf GX. Think there already is one...

Instead of making balance issues so they actually balance, they have made it so people would rather switch to a different class than stick with a class that is in all aspects useless now. Ok they can choose to not fist so not useless, but very hindered....

I want to keep playing my Sura in WOE, I have a 150 GX ready to go, but I really would like to keep my Sura. I am sure there are many other players that feel the same way.

[Aeroku]

What I meant by using teamwork I will try to demonstrate with an example: A lot of people will say "Pneuma!" to defend against certain very powerful attacks. As any class besides an Aco, you have to rely on your teammates to Pneuma you. You really have no sway over whether you live or not. A Sura after Gfist could be seen the same way. You need your allies to figuratively Pneuma you.

Yeah you can fwing with any class, and I don't really think that's right either. I'd prefer an MVP debuff that prevents teleporting or something, but I doubt we'll ever see it. However, snapping to get out of range of an MVP is a lot more time-efficient than fwinging somewhere randomly and hoping you get back before competition. Two sides of the same problem coin.

I'm relatively sure Storm Blast was nerfed enough to not do a ton of damage (may be wrong), but if it is still capable of one-shotting I'd be all for it. That sort of power should have some sort of drawback defensively. Heck, if Storm Blast still one shots AoE-wise I'd be half inclined to suggest it hurt the caster as well.

I do realize a lot of what I'm asking is outside the scope of what Gravity is willing to do though, because it requires fundamental changes in the way the game is designed.

If you CAN just fwing after a Gfist, what exactly is the major loss to not being able to snap afterwards (outside of ET where no one can wing) in an MVP/PVE setting? The ability to get back faster?

why get your guildies to pneuma you if you're useless and not doing anything? save your guildies time to do other better things instead, sacrament people that are actually doing something, etc. that's why bwing was the only good option there is other than speed pot which may not always be favoured.

regarding last part, no, you can still use speed pots. comparable to snap pretty much. the proposal i asked doesn't change the way you can mvp other than being able to snap out or retaliate. its mostly for woe/pvp environment.

the thing about balance patch is not about "hey sura's were so overpowered last time that now they should be nerf'ed down to hell until they can't do crap" (believe me, even xellie had this mind even if only a bit of it. or at least she haven't exactly experienced sura). but it's about bringing balance to the game.

Edited by Aeroku, 16 December 2011 - 02:09 PM.

[DeltaRay]

The most reasonable thing to do is put a cool down on gfist, not aftercast delay.

[D111]

The most reasonable thing to do is put a cool down on gfist, not aftercast delay.

That would be fine with me. It would be much better than the current situation.

[Aeroku]

^ oh, well similar thing. you probably didn't get my word right (or i got the term wrong). just means that you can only do 1 fist per 10 sec, without anything else affected. (or xellie's idea)

[HRdevil]

I approve this "Balance"

[DeltaRay]

putting a cool down on gfist just means you cant use the skill gfist for another 10 seconds but you can use other skills.Putting a after cast delay of 10 seconds is just saying after you cast gfist 10 seconds after you cant do anything.

[Randalf]

So then it's about WoE. I thought it was MVP/PVE, my bad.

I'd be totally fine with Suras being able to snap right after gfist if they couldn't snap out of traps/snares.

[Wizard]

Yea my main concern in OP was WoE and being a sitting duck.

Welcome to Ragnarok... lol

If you want to avoid the 10 seconds penalty in WoE, just stop Gfisting whoever cross your path and do other things like GoH or KA... leave the gfist as a last resort skill and fist whoever you think it's important to kill...

Other than that, you can still use Speed Pots just like "every other class" (except Thief class and maybe ninjas...)

[D111]

GoH or KA... leave the gfist as a last resort skill and fist whoever you think it's important to kill...

You want me to be like the Best Sura on the Server and resort to KA with no Strings, spam it even tho I see the enemy is in Phnuema?

No Thank you...

[Wanderer]

Ppl who says things like these havent really participated in real mvping (competitive one). There are only 2 efficient classes to MVP - genes and suras, now they just removed the suras on the list making ONLY genes "kings of mvps", how does it make MVP environment better?

They are not kings, you can still compete on pretty much any mvp that is not ghost type, one shot many of the low-mid tier mvps without giving anyone a chance to compete.

I think with the balance patch genetics got really hit in woe too, they got hit too in pvm with a nerf in bomb damage, however these classes (sura and gen) are still one step ahed everyone else in MvPing non-ghost types, and sura is one step ahead of genetic in woe for sure, you can't be the best in every field like pre-balance patch.

[Xellie]

the thing about balance patch is not about "hey sura's were so overpowered last time that now they should be nerf'ed down to hell until they can't do crap" (believe me, even xellie had this mind even if only a bit of it. or at least she haven't exactly experienced sura). but it's about bringing balance to the game.

I have sura, I have access to 150 suras, I played MVP champ pre-re.

I understand the role of gfist. Now, 10 seconds isn't a terrible amount of time to be helpless in, frankly, I'm not seeing the need for sp to "escape" when speedpots are an option.
Should suras be totally crippled? No.

Should genetics have free reign over mvps? Definately not

It's tricky! But I wouldn't like to see Suras running into mobs of people ,fisting and then just potting through and keeping up what it is that it is they are doing. forcing them to speed back to their guildmates seems a fair solution.

MVPing is another matter, I kinda think that this shouldn't exist in mvping. It's not about tanking, or staying safe, or surviving, it's about your DPS/DPM vs genetics.

[DeltaRay]

Ppl who says things like these havent really participated in real mvping (competitive one). There are only 2 efficient classes to MVP - genes and suras, now they just removed the suras on the list making ONLY genes "kings of mvps", how does it make MVP environment better?

Xellie clearly said 10 seconds on zen I am pretty sure if you are a sura and cant zen and gfist you will complain because a geneticist outmvped u

[D111]

They are not kings, you can still compete on pretty much any mvp that is not ghost type, one shot many of the low-mid tier mvps without giving anyone a chance to compete.

I think with the balance patch genetics got really hit in woe too, they got hit too in pvm with a nerf in bomb damage, however these classes (sura and gen) are still one step ahed everyone else in MvPing non-ghost types, and sura is one step ahead of genetic in woe for sure, you can't be the best in every field like pre-balance patch.

I agree, but I just feel the SP regen is a bit extreme.

I like Delta's Suggestion, put a cooldown on Gfist.