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New Cast Time Proposal


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Poll: New Cast Time Proposal (3 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you feel about this proposal?

  1. It's perfect. (9 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  2. Good. Needs a little adjustment. (39 votes [54.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.93%

  3. Poor. On par with or worse than how it is now. (13 votes [18.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.31%

  4. It's completey off mark. (10 votes [14.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.08%

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#76 Prodigy

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:52 AM

@OP
Both Jaye and I agreed that kRO's casting time formula is stupid when applied on some skills. We also then pointed out that your proposed formula is not as perfect as you think it is. So far, it seems that you refuse to admit that your formula has faults.

-I pointed out that near-instant is still possible under your formula. In your formula 180 dex, 180 int, with 40% casting time reduction (2 sprint rings, dark illusion CoD) is ~93% casting time reduction, which is equivalent to 140 dex preRenewal. Throw in a 60% reduction from strings (which you're suggesting should stack multiplicatively and not additively with equipment casting time reduction) and we're looking at the same casting time as 145 dex preRenewal. That's already near-instant by RO standards. Of course this setup requires Strings to maintain the fast casting time, but Strings was already present in preRenewal times, just the usage is changed. In preRenewal, Strings was used to take care of aftercast delay (but Renewal fixes that with reuse delay) while in your proposed changes, Strings will then be used for casting time reduction. And of course, this is still not considering all the +dex and +int gears and %casting time reduction items that they may implement in the future.

-Jaye pointed out that even with your revised Archer casting time formula, near-instant is not enough in a practical standpoint. Archers aren't spamming skills like preRenewal SG where 1 cast is enough to take care of the mob, or at least control it. Archers are using skills like FAS that needs to be repeatedly used to clean up a mob, or Arrow Vulcan which just takes monsters down one at a time. So, from a practical and realistic standpoint, anything slower than instant cast will not do because of the nature of their skills - they need to constantly use it while tanking a mob and at the same time, it doesn't provide the same crowd controlling (or outright killing) effects as other AoEs do.

Edited by Prodigy, 22 September 2010 - 07:54 AM.

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#77 Kadelia

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:32 AM

Well said Prodigy.

Also his formula doesn't allow for near or complete instant cast for archers until the characters are practically mid third job which is essentially useless when we're talking about making skills useful mid-trans or mid-2nd job like pre-renewal.

Honestly if old cast formula could just be assigned to all 1st/2nd/trans archer skills nobody would complain.

Edited by Jaye, 22 September 2010 - 08:36 AM.

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#78 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 01:15 PM

@OP
Both Jaye and I agreed that kRO's casting time formula is stupid when applied on some skills. We also then pointed out that your proposed formula is not as perfect as you think it is. So far, it seems that you refuse to admit that your formula has faults.

-I pointed out that near-instant is still possible under your formula. In your formula 180 dex, 180 int, with 40% casting time reduction (2 sprint rings, dark illusion CoD) is ~93% casting time reduction, which is equivalent to 140 dex preRenewal. Throw in a 60% reduction from strings (which you're suggesting should stack multiplicatively and not additively with equipment casting time reduction) and we're looking at the same casting time as 145 dex preRenewal. That's already near-instant by RO standards. Of course this setup requires Strings to maintain the fast casting time, but Strings was already present in preRenewal times, just the usage is changed. In preRenewal, Strings was used to take care of aftercast delay (but Renewal fixes that with reuse delay) while in your proposed changes, Strings will then be used for casting time reduction. And of course, this is still not considering all the +dex and +int gears and %casting time reduction items that they may implement in the future.

-Jaye pointed out that even with your revised Archer casting time formula, near-instant is not enough in a practical standpoint. Archers aren't spamming skills like preRenewal SG where 1 cast is enough to take care of the mob, or at least control it. Archers are using skills like FAS that needs to be repeatedly used to clean up a mob, or Arrow Vulcan which just takes monsters down one at a time. So, from a practical and realistic standpoint, anything slower than instant cast will not do because of the nature of their skills - they need to constantly use it while tanking a mob and at the same time, it doesn't provide the same crowd controlling (or outright killing) effects as other AoEs do.


This is rubbish.

First of all, it's not an issue that near-instant cast is still available. It takes a whole lot of buffs, specific gears and stats, and favorable circumstances (such as not being stuck in a quagmire or under marsh of abyss) to have it.

Let's have a look. Pre-renewal:
max dex, dex gears, bless = instant cast with 99 stat caps

This suggestion:
max dex/int, cast reduction gears, bless, sacraments, strings = near-instant with 120 stat caps

Before renewal strings was still useful for reducing cast time, BTW. That is, IF you had a cast time still. :) And even with the suggestion, it's still useful for reducing after-cast delay.

The thing is, there aren't going to be any problems later. You've already taken what... the +20 foods from Genetics, strings, sacraments, +10 kafra foods, all the current best cast gears available now, and max int/dex. What room is left now??? What are the odds that they're going to come out with an item which not only gives just as much cast reduction, but ALSO adds tons of dex and int? Oh, that's right, they WON'T. It would be retardedly overpowered. And even if new releases over the years slowly increased your dex/int, the returns would be diminishing, thanks to the properties of this formula. At the same time, odds are items which also increase attack speed would be released... so it would only be fair to slowly notch up casting time anyway.

The only real problem would be if gravity kept releasing items that gave way too much cast reduction time without ever thinking of the consequences. It would be like being able to easily get armor reduction to 99%. There was nothing wrong with how the defense system worked, but the point is you had to be careful with things and could not just progressively release items with more and more def.


And as for the archer skills, effectively what you want is a double standard. I would agree that archers would deserve, at the very least, a better formula to improve their casting, but you are going to go so far as to give them INSTANT cast, or near-instant cast, by time they hit level 70? That is BS.

I should also point out that near-instant is perfectly suitable. The difference between a 3.4 and 3 sec time between uses is only a drop in effectiveness of 12%. If you can't deal with a .4 sec cast time, you just don't know how to play RO. Here she was saying Oh, this trap thingy does 9k, but it's just SILLY having to get monsters to walk over it! :)

Hello? Monsters have behaved in the same, predictable manners since, uh... ALWAYS. Hunters have had no trouble utilizing their traps by getting monsters to walk on them. Mages have had firewall since the beginning too, and it isn't hard to put up a perfect, vertical firewall.

All I'm saying is this. If you are having a problem with very-near instant cast times on these archer skills, making them instant will not save you. Your problems would not be derived from the minuscule cast times you are forced to endure, but rather your lack of ability to play RO.
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#79 Heimdallr

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:17 PM

Lets get a test on this!

I'll bring the Bard with epic Strings, you bring the classes that you are concerned have too slow, and lets put some testing and game experience into it.

How about during Maintenance tomorrow?

We have adjusted after cast delay already on a few skills, so lets start playing with the cast bar.
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#80 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:26 PM

Lets get a test on this!

I'll bring the Bard with epic Strings, you bring the classes that you are concerned have too slow, and lets put some testing and game experience into it.

How about during Maintenance tomorrow?

We have adjusted after cast delay already on a few skills, so lets start playing with the cast bar.


Uh... that sounds interesting? So while the main servers have maintenance, Yggdrasil will still be up?

Also, can you give some more info on this? The bard with epic strings has... maxed strings/music lessons, max base dex/int, blessing, int/dex gears. Will it have stat foods?

Also you will definitely need an archbishop with sacraments for the testers.

Are you going to see how fast cast times are with all this support? IMO, you won't be that impressed. :)
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#81 Heimdallr

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:35 PM

The point isn't to be impressed it is to see the problem.
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#82 Doddler

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:08 PM

I would recommend using secrament when testing as the buff will be available in most real situations where cast time is important, and makes a big difference about the usefulness of the skill. I however will not be available during siege to do testing.

What caught my eye was that heim mentioned that several skills were already adjusted. Is it possible to get details about changes?

LethalJokeChar: I'm pretty sure when heim says epic strings, he means epic, like 255 of all stats epic. It's the most reliable way to test a skill's maximum cast time.

Personally, I think problem skills are ganbantein, energy coat, charge arrow, melody strike, focus arrow strike, falcon assault, and wind walk. Also maybe arrow vulcan, the fixed portion of the skill isn't high but gypsy/minstrels may cry foul at taking over a second to cast a skill that was traditionally always instant. Also maybe you want to increase fixed portion on clashing, that skill needs to be beat down. :)

Edited by Doddler, 22 September 2010 - 08:13 PM.

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#83 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:51 PM

If he's going to test using strings, he had better use it with a char that appears legitimate. 255 all stats might be cool to "test" certain things, but it's not gonna happen without cheating. That said, he may be trying to compensate for missing gear... well in that case, since it's just a test server, I suggest he still just uses legitimate stats but hands out needed gear people are missing to make their cast times faster.

Oh yeah. You should do this in a kind of mock Woe setting, and get people to try casting skills without being interrupted.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 22 September 2010 - 09:52 PM.

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#84 DeltaRay

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 10:59 PM

Well said Prodigy.

Also his formula doesn't allow for near or complete instant cast for archers until the characters are practically mid third job which is essentially useless when we're talking about making skills useful mid-trans or mid-2nd job like pre-renewal.

Honestly if old cast formula could just be assigned to all 1st/2nd/trans archer skills nobody would complain.

I think removing the fixed cast time from 1st/2nd/trans with the exception of Zen, Acid, and Gfist would be something I dont think will be a problem,I mean if you really think about it majority of your damage will come from 3rd classes. Reducing Variable cast time to 0 is not an easy thing either, you would have to stack int and dex gears including
+10 foods maybe even the +20 foods or stacking Bee cards and cast reduction gears but that hurts your matk because dex increases your matk.
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#85 Fibrizzo

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 03:25 AM

I saw a rod in amesaniro who reduces fixed cast time with each refine dropped by Medusas. Is the maximum +15 in renewal with all those bradium new ores?

I guess there will be lot of new stuff to gain an almost instant cast. Even the new enchants for gears gives fixed cast reduction so I don't think that change the renewal formula is a must.
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#86 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 04:15 PM

I saw a rod in amesaniro who reduces fixed cast time with each refine dropped by Medusas. Is the maximum +15 in renewal with all those bradium new ores?

I guess there will be lot of new stuff to gain an almost instant cast. Even the new enchants for gears gives fixed cast reduction so I don't think that change the renewal formula is a must.


I think I heard that only the best fixed cast reduction is taken. For example, warlock passive skill, Radius, does not stack with sacraments, but rather is overridden and takes only the highest buffs. Odds are these equip bonuses would not stack with radius or sacraments either...

But I am not 100% sure on this. Definitely need some confirmation on this?
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#87 Fibrizzo

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 04:25 PM

It's obvious new gears and buffs won't stack. Gravity don't want spells without cast time and Sacramenti reduces 50% of that fixed part...

I'm sure we will get faster cast with all new stuff... Maybe in the next update.
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#88 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 01:12 AM

You know what else I just realized about the whole arrow vulcan / double strafe whining thing?

When you use a musical instrument, YOU CAN USE A SHIELD WITH IT.

Ho boy, I would say that is quite an advantage in pvp situations...
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#89 Kadelia

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 03:56 AM

minstrels and gypsies are totally top tier in pvp!

NOT.

Double Strafe - 380%
Slinging Arrow - 250%

If they are instant cast both, the damage drop with slinging arrow justifies the gain of a shield. Even so nobody used slinging arrow in PVP because its garbage.

So yeah let's totally nerf it with a 1+ second cast time so that it can be interrupted easily by someone with 150 aspd. At least by the time you are Lv.150, and you can cast skills like Reverb in < 0.3 seconds and do 600%, your slinging arrow will only take around 0.6 seconds! That will make it usefu--err nevermind.

Your system isn't much better than kRO's. And your arrogant attitude and ignorance toward actually using these skills in-game is equally unhelpful.

Edited by Jaye, 24 September 2010 - 04:03 AM.

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#90 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 08:45 AM

minstrels and gypsies are totally top tier in pvp!

NOT.

Double Strafe - 380%
Slinging Arrow - 250%

If they are instant cast both, the damage drop with slinging arrow justifies the gain of a shield. Even so nobody used slinging arrow in PVP because its garbage.

So yeah let's totally nerf it with a 1+ second cast time so that it can be interrupted easily by someone with 150 aspd. At least by the time you are Lv.150, and you can cast skills like Reverb in < 0.3 seconds and do 600%, your slinging arrow will only take around 0.6 seconds! That will make it usefu--err nevermind.

Your system isn't much better than kRO's. And your arrogant attitude and ignorance toward actually using these skills in-game is equally unhelpful.


These would be the cast times for slinging arrow with my formula:

50 dex - .705 sec
100 dex - .331 sec
150 dex - .155 sec
200 dex - .073 sec


Now for the last GODDAMN TIME, stop saying that you will have horrible 1, 2+ sec cast time on your archer class skills.

Another interesting perk about the arrow skills bard/dancer get is that you can use them while playing a song.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 24 September 2010 - 08:47 AM.

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#91 Kadelia

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:25 AM

These would be the cast times for slinging arrow with my formula:

50 dex - .705 sec
100 dex - .331 sec
150 dex - .155 sec
200 dex - .073 sec


Now for the last GODDAMN TIME, stop saying that you will have horrible 1, 2+ sec cast time on your archer class skills.

Another interesting perk about the arrow skills bard/dancer get is that you can use them while playing a song.


While you may like flattering yourself thinking I was talking about your system with my math, I was talking about kRO's. The sentence at the bottom "yours isn't much better" is about yours.

Persuasive Argument
Please do not nerf skills that are already weak and hard to use.

You're argument
I'm only nerfing it by 0.155 to 0.331 seconds. For no reason.

End result: WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU? CAN YOU NOT READ? WE SAID -NO- NERF.

Are you on the same page as competent people yet...?
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#92 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:22 AM

Maybe you should stay on topic instead of going off on random tangents that have nothing to do with the suggestion. What am I supposed to think if pretty much all you have been doing is bashing this system until you get your precious instant cast? And then you keep calling it a nerf.

Look, it's really simple:

pre-renewal -> my way ... nerf ...call it one if you want, but it's small anyway.

kRO renewal -> my way ... HUGE BUFF!!
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#93 Kadelia

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:34 AM

Your way isn't anything special. Get over yourself. It addresses none of the real problems with the system. It just makes fast cast easier on the classes that aren't be unfairly affected.
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#94 holatuwol

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 06:07 AM

I would recommend using secrament when testing as the buff will be available in most real situations where cast time is important ...

Not to be mean, but both you and Heimdallr seem to have missed the fact that most people in this thread are talking about adjusting transcendent 2nd class skills for characters that are still mid-level transcendent 2nd class (70-90). Strings will exist for snipers and possibly gypsies, but unless you're bringing around two minstrels who are constantly stringing each other (unlikely), you aren't getting minstrels to use Arrow Vulcan. Sacrament will not exist at all, except in extremely rare "I feel like slaving people" scenarios.

The only person who is whining about the theoretical maximum is the person who's trying to buff the cast time of warlocks, genetics, suras and rune knights with a new formula because he thinks they're not fast enough (though thankfully, no one is taking his formula seriously other than himself) while waving around a "zomg 2nd class archer skills should never be instant" flag to make it sound like he's concerned about game balance.
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#95 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 10:19 AM

Not to be mean, but both you and Heimdallr seem to have missed the fact that most people in this thread are talking about adjusting transcendent 2nd class skills for characters that are still mid-level transcendent 2nd class (70-90). Strings will exist for snipers and possibly gypsies, but unless you're bringing around two minstrels who are constantly stringing each other (unlikely), you aren't getting minstrels to use Arrow Vulcan. Sacrament will not exist at all, except in extremely rare "I feel like slaving people" scenarios.

The only person who is whining about the theoretical maximum is the person who's trying to buff the cast time of warlocks, genetics, suras and rune knights with a new formula because he thinks they're not fast enough (though thankfully, no one is taking his formula seriously other than himself) while waving around a "zomg 2nd class archer skills should never be instant" flag to make it sound like he's concerned about game balance.


Check the poll results, sonny.
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#96 Prodigy

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:13 AM

Check the poll results, sonny.

"needs a little adjustment" - You still haven't conceded to any issues pointed out with your formula.
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#97 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 09:56 AM

"needs a little adjustment" - You still haven't conceded to any issues pointed out with your formula.


I haven't conceded to your points, yes. You and your other troll buddies' "issues".

Maybe if someone actually gave some specific adjustments which were reasonable and still fit into the purpose of this proposal?

Also, everyone's opinions are different on the subject, so people in the "needs adjustment" pool can be contradicting each other... Furthermore, I do not guarantee that I will actually make adjustments, but if it is a really good one, I would try. Some of the adjustment issues also could stem from the list of skills to nerf/adjust or mention.

And, for the most part, have not had anything constructively said about that since the first page.
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#98 Kadelia

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:21 PM

You're pretty stupid. Numerous people have disagreed with you and provided some pretty convincing data but you've still got your hands over your ears going "na na na!" because you still can't stand to be wrong. As prodigy said-- 90.2% of people voting on your topic said it needs adjustment but you haven't conceded a damn thing being wrong with your formula. :p_err:

Somehow Prodigy and I are 90.2% of the 53 people who have posted. Weird. Something just seems wrong about that math. Hmm.
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#99 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 03:02 PM

Right, right. Cause I so totally said it first that was what YOU were doing: plugging your ears. Like in the drops thread. You haven't seen one good valid reason to abolish it? When 95% of the players do not want it? Ok, yes, I wonder who really plugs their ears ignoring all facts.

Here's another interpretation of this poll for you: 63% of people so far would be perfectly happy if this was put into effect. Just because it may need a little adjustment does not mean it is not good to go, nor horribly flawed, or any adjustments needed would be that significant anyway.

Then, add another 20% or so who probably would not care one way or another, because they'd see it as replacing one equally flawed system for another. Or rag on it for saying "OR WORSE". I don't care. Half the %. I really don't give a :p_err:. The 3rd option still is not anything that great, but the intention was, it's around the level of how renewal handles things, cause renewal was that bad.

That only really leaves about 18% left who really would be totally against this. Now seriously, get the HELL out of this thread. I'm tired of you trolling. All you have been doing is bashing me. Scram. GTFO. I see one more petty insult from you, I'm just reporting every single one of them from now on.
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#100 Kadelia

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 05:33 PM

Disagreeing with you != trolling. FYI you have 0 data and just made up a 95% figure. There is also zilch data to say people want your adjustments over someone else's like doddler's or etc. All we can draw from it is players like yours better than Gravity's which is a small feat.

Can I report your posts? They're all full of personal attacks.
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