382 replies to this topic

[Maximz]

quick question, will Illusion-Bewitch work during WoE. reason i ask is cause it doesn't work on people wearing a bryn which is to assume that it doesn't work on people that is immune to knockback and considering there is no knock back in WoE then it would not work at all... thus im asking is this skill going to end up being an exception to the rule or not?

[Senkasa]

As far as I know the classes are still in a bit of a buggy state so it's unknown unless you want to test it in a WoE Environment when they release.

[Ramen]

I have another rather big question. Is Shadow Leap going to remain disabled during WoE? Now that we have 3rd classes, I see absolutely no reason to disable the skill, even in WoE2. If you're concerned about someone breaking the Emp while stones and barricades are still up, just make it so that Barricades cannot be attacked while guardian stones exist, and Emperium cannot be attacked while Barricades exist. I really see no reason to continue disabling Shadow Leap, especially since it royally screws over a lot of ther nice ninja skills.

Also, regarding the mobility issue, 1)The skill is not spammable. 2)It can't even be used if you're standing in Ruwach or Sight. 3) While it can jump over snipeable cells, the only ones that matter (barricades) are going to be well defended enough that one or two Kagerou or Oboro jumping into the enemy precast wouldn't matter. 4)Leap can jump over snipeable walls, yet no one is complaining about how it's over powered. When you boil it down, Shadow Leap is very much like Snap, except it's MUCH MUCH slower, cannot be used whenever you want (have to be able to hide first), and unlike Suras, K/O does not have instant cast GFist or Gates of Hell which 1 shot a large number of classes.

[TheSquishy]

I have another rather big question. Is Shadow Leap going to remain disabled during WoE? Now that we have 3rd classes, I see absolutely no reason to disable the skill, even in WoE2. If you're concerned about someone breaking the Emp while stones and barricades are still up, just make it so that Barricades cannot be attacked while guardian stones exist, and Emperium cannot be attacked while Barricades exist. I really see no reason to continue disabling Shadow Leap, especially since it royally screws over a lot of ther nice ninja skills.

Also, regarding the mobility issue, 1)The skill is not spammable. 2)It can't even be used if you're standing in Ruwach or Sight. 3) While it can jump over snipeable cells, the only ones that matter (barricades) are going to be well defended enough that one or two Kagerou or Oboro jumping into the enemy precast wouldn't matter. 4)Leap can jump over snipeable walls, yet no one is complaining about how it's over powered. When you boil it down, Shadow Leap is very much like Snap, except it's MUCH MUCH slower, cannot be used whenever you want (have to be able to hide first), and unlike Suras, K/O does not have instant cast GFist or Gates of Hell which 1 shot a large number of classes.

Shadow leap should definitely be re-enabled.
Especially since Ninjas have such low hp, they can't survive any kind of decent defense. And the skill is pointless in pvm anyways.

Edited by TheSquishy, 04 February 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Viri]

Leap is disabled in woe2. They'd have to disable that in woe2. Woe1 it'd be fine

[Facekiller]

the AoE of Exploding Kunai isnt 3x3 its more like 8x8... its got a blast radius of 3 cells in all directions

[Kadelia]

I disagree, I think all transportation skills (shadow leap, snap, backslide, etc) should be disabled because they interfere with the intent of woe being about barricading and blocking choke points (which player bodies aren't impeding the movement of these transportation skills, and they should). The whole point of phalanxing a choke point is supposed to be you can't pass this particular human wall without playing red rover, but skills like snap and backslide just bork this concept and make tanks less pivotal in woe than they should be.

Edited by Jaye, 04 February 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Viri]

8x8 isn't even a possible choice lol. Gotta be odd numbers, 7x7 would be 3 in all directions that would make sense

[Facekiller]

i suck at math

[meoryou2]

I disagree, I think all transportation skills (shadow leap, snap, backslide, etc) should be disabled because they interfere with the intent of woe being about barricading and blocking choke points (which player bodies aren't impeding the movement of these transportation skills, and they should). The whole point of phalanxing a choke point is supposed to be you can't pass this particular human wall without playing red rover, but skills like snap and backslide just bork this concept and make tanks less pivotal in woe than they should be.

You can't shadow leap to a player or NPC occupied cell, at least not in cities / Prontera. The animation of leaping will go off but you will remain on the starting cell.

The rest I agree with, I think if not disabling snap at least make it ALWAYS use spheres... not "oh, you are in fury, free snaps as long as you have SP so start chugging those blues" way they have it now.

[Ramen]

I disagree, I think all transportation skills (shadow leap, snap, backslide, etc) should be disabled because they interfere with the intent of woe being about barricading and blocking choke points (which player bodies aren't impeding the movement of these transportation skills, and they should). The whole point of phalanxing a choke point is supposed to be you can't pass this particular human wall without playing red rover, but skills like snap and backslide just bork this concept and make tanks less pivotal in woe than they should be.

I agree with this, but we all know that pretty much every Sura player will cry and quit the game if they disable snap in WoE. I'm just suggesting that since so many are already allowed, I think Shadow Leap should be allowed for the reasons I previously stated. I think a way they could solve the issues of snap, backslide, etc. would, rather than nerfing those skills, simply buff skills that are designed to "trap" players. I mentioned it once before, but I didn't really get any kind of feedback. The idea is that when players get caught in skills like ankle snare, fiber lock, etc, all mobility type skills (snap, backslide, front slide, leap, etc) are disabled for the duration of the trap, or until the trap is removed via a skill. I think it would really make a whole new dynamic to WoE, since trappers would finally be useful in WoE, and skills that designed to remove traps would actually get some use. It doesn't seem like it would be an overpowered thing to do, since there are already ways to counter it built into the game. I'm not that great at programming or whatever, but it seems like it would be easy to do. Just something like:

When no player is in a trap or when no trap exists, Trap=0
When a player is in a trap, Trap=1
If Trap=1

Then Snap=0

Backslide=0

Frontslide=0

etc...

When Trap=0

Then Snap=1

Backslide=1

Frontslide=1

etc...

[Viri]

The easiest way to do it is grant a "trapped" status effect to a bunch of skills and have those skills block a list of other skills. That's actually quite a good idea.

[Ramen]

The easiest way to do it is grant a "trapped" status effect to a bunch of skills and have those skills block a list of other skills. That's actually quite a good idea.

Ah, yes! That would be much simpler to do. I have no idea why Gravity wouldn't do that. I think it would make WoE so much more interesting. :3

[Facekiller]

its not just hsadow leap that doesnt work... shadow slash doesnt work either and KS doesnt move you it just inflicts damage.. makes me wonder how/if cross slash and illusion-Bewitch will work in woe

Edited by Facekiller, 04 February 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Ramen]

its not just hsadow leap that doesnt work... shadow slash doesnt work either and KS doesnt move you it just inflicts damage.. makes me wonder how/if cross slash and illusion-Bewitch will work in woe

My guess is that they won't work properly.

[Kadelia]

Yeah being able to leap or snap or backslide out of a trap is stupid++ and makes me want to sigh at how poorly conceived this game is

[ka10]

are people going to like gender change to oboro for that extra 133~150 matk/atk for leveling? =( my kagerou...
dont want my alts on the same account to turn female too, pffff. got an alt female ninja just for that matk/atk skill but 2 min duration isn't too long (unlike kaahi)

[Ramen]

are people going to like gender change to oboro for that extra 133~150 matk/atk for leveling? =( my kagerou...
dont want my alts on the same account to turn female too, pffff. got an alt female ninja just for that matk/atk skill but 2 min duration isn't too long (unlike kaahi)

I honestly think the idea was for Kagero and Oboro to work together in pairs. Optimally if you're playing as a Kagero, you'd be partying with an Oboro, and if you're an Oboro, you'd be partying with a Kagerou. I think each class has it's own positives and negatives and will, in the end, both be valuable assets.

[TheKiss]

Honestly, I did not want to create an account just to make one post (seeing as I haven't been playing on iRO for a while now and I have lost all of my credentials for older accounts), but I guess I'll have to anyways to provide input given that I came back to test (and hopefully play) the new ninja classes.

My impression so far is somewhat of disappointment at the class. Though they are basically a mix-and-match of every other RO class in terms of roles, making them versatile in terms of builds and situational behavior, they are very much outclassed by all of the other third job classes in each of those roles.

Kagerou/Oboro as a physical class:
Their physical DPS capabiliis pretty much non-existent due to the delay-padded skills in the first class and the cooldown-strapped skills in the second class. Though I would argue that the first class skill are at least capable of being useful, since you could work to eliminate the cooldown of the skills, they don't really provide much in the way of damage that other DPS classes, like say, the Guillotines and Rangers of the world. I think even Suras have better DPS potential than ninja right now. Skills such as Cross Slash and Swirling Petals really have no business getting a cooldown, since those would be the main ways a ninja would be dealing any sort of DPS in a given party. Maybe they could be too powerful if given no cooldown, but the current ones really make their DPS potetial pretty much null, effectively making them non-starters (unless you get like 10 ninja in the same party spamming those skills at the same time).

You would argue that their only DPS right now is probably Kunai Splash, but that's not really much of a damage skill given the current damage would be very easily reduced and you can pretty much pot through it without much effort, and the thing has a pretty high price to pay (8 Kunai) in order for you to use it, so one would sy the true purpose of the skill is just spreading status ailments (if it even does that to begin with). Exploding Kunai has potential, and this one I can understad being given a cooldown, since its damage potential is one to watch out for (20k+ damage with about 350k atk is a lot). I can see the thing being able to reach 50k damage on non-demihuman given a good set of gear (maybe needing dual wielding to boot). There's also the fact that the AoE Kunai Splash already would play stand-in for the DPS-style combat, given a good set of cards to help it along with status damage (but even then, you'd still be a prettyburst damage type character in WoE (potable damage at that).

There is also Rapid Throw ninja, but when you get past the "OMG 100k DMG!!" gimmick, you come to realize the skill isn't even half as useful as skills that have the same cooldown and can deal high damage. "So, I get a chance (random damage) to maybe (chance to fail) kill one (given no one else is within the AoE range) guy every 10 seconds (pretty long cooldown)... that you have to spend 13 skill points on (oh nice, Makibishi, another skill with a cooldown that's so long it makes the use of the skill irrelevant for most use-cases)? That's... cool... I guess..."

This doesn't even get into the problem that most ninja face, which is the lack of HP, meaning anything that hits them is very likely to drop them dead on the spot. I'm sure RG are on the list of things to avoid at all costs, seeing most of them are on reflect buffs/gear pretty much all of the time.

Kagerou/Oboro as a magical class:
If there was one side that somehow got DPS potential, it's the magic build, they do have a lot of damage potential, but... you'd have to make your build somewhat specialized if you want to achieve full damage on all skills In PvP scenarios, a magical ninja would be as effective as a Warlock or Sorcerer, except both of them can deal more damage in a shorter amount of time then the ninja classes. The only way you would probably be able to outlive a sorc or a WL would be to have tatami, but that renders your ability to fight back pretty much nill unless you set yourself with gearthat reduces global delay, and even then, you still won't be protected from magical damage much at all (I guess Pure Soul would work, if you're lucky enough to get the protection). Than there's the whole limited array of elements available to use, making you a very easily countered class in terms of elemental damage resistance.

Release... well... most disappointing skill ever. You'd think this would be on the level of Tetra Vortex, but let me tell you... not even close. THis is probably something you use for that one time you don't want to waste your charms by changing the element and you just throw it at someone. This one could use improvement.

On the matters of Cast Ninja Spell, I guess this one is alright,and basically would cement your position as a support class, much more so than a damage class at the very least. THe only problem I see is that the way you need to use the skill in order to buff people withit, I guess you could useit to buff yourself to do damage.

Kagerou/Oboro as a support class:
This is the only really viable position as a ninja right now, but even then, most of the skills that would belong in this skill build are pretty much clogged up by the cooldown demons as much as the physical ninja builds. Bewitch, Shock and Death all have somewhat prohibitive cooldowns that make those skills barely useful at all.

Maybe, if Betwitch works in WoE, it could POSSIBLY get you past some pre-cast, but the chances of being near somene that's not built with a respectable amount of Int in WoE are very low, and then, you are pretty much going to be sitting in the middle of the enemy team ready do pounce at you (that is, given that you don't die to the precast at all).

Shock... meh, you could probably stack it it up with other stat debuffs and maybe turn the target into a poring or something, then maybe other people such as AB could do aspersio on the guy while your whole party is sitting on holy armors. But you won't get much of this one other than the stat reductions. If it's going to have such a long cooldown, at least make it so that it could reduce up to -20~25 to all stats, that would really be a significant deduction to make the difference in WoE.

Death pretty much is a lead skill or and end skill, but without other skills to backit up (a full support ninja may likely not have much of a DPS potential),it's not going to be much of a skill for anyone, and the cooldown really gets in the way of getting something dead. And don't even get me started on how hard it is to get the coma status on anyone. I might as well go looking for an LoD and auto-attack everything, I'm sure that would be much easier than having to pray for a mircle and get someone down to 1 HP/SP.

Soul Cutter is pretty essential, and as it is right now, it's very useful, since it could pretty much help disable (and take down) Chasers, who are the primary users of Soul Link buffs. But in order to get you need to spend at least two extra skill points (depending on whether you have a smokie card and you need to hide at all), making the decision somewhat critical.

Kagerou exclusive skills:
I think the only useful one is Shadow Trampling, given its AoE range and ability to spam it. Surely there is likely tobe no one escaping you if they go about wandering in steathy states.

Empty Shadow I haven't tried yet, given how people in Sakray are either uncooperative/unfriednly or simply are too busy being Kagerou/Oboro doing tests themselves. I'll check it out maybe whenI make another account to build an RG around it, but without reflect gears I won't know if the skill is useful at all. I really hope that this thing disables all reflect functions on a target, because otherwise the cooldown makes the skill mediocre at best.

Finally, there's Shadow Warrior, I guess this is the only skill that SORT OF validates the existence of the hand masteries, because there is no need to use the hand masteries if you're going to use skills, only for melee at most. This skill only has potential for other,s not so much for the Kagerou himself since they don't have any skill that would benefit from a double attack buff even though they should. The only possibility would be to enable the skill to somehow double every hit you deal 100% of the time and that it worked on the left hand for the Kagerou (so it someohw could deal 4 hits per attack instead of 2~3 on chance while dual wielding, thus helping increase their DPS potential). In any case, right now, the skill is pretty much just buff bait for melee killers more than the Kagerou itself, making it basically a slave skill.

Oboro exclusive skills:
I guess these have more of an advantage than Kagerou when it comes to power potential. Distorted Crescent is an obvious self buff, and generally, you wouldn't like to use the skill against someone that you don't know, lest you wish to bring about your own death by accidentally buffing the enemy instead of debuffing them.

The Crimson moon skill I guess it's just the new version of undead scroll without making you actually undead, but if it's going to have such a big cooldown as well as a success chance, it may as well turn every skill item and card that gives you HP into a damage formula, otherwise it's not going to be of much use in WoE (again, chance to maybe kill thatone guy every 10 seconds). If a players is smart enough, and knows that he has the debuff he may as well just run away and make sure he isn't killed, thus making the time using the skill wasted. Otherwise, the cooldown of the skill should be non-existent or be very minimal, not the bloated 8~10 seconds that it has.

The last skill in the Oboro branch... I don't even understand how it works... so I can'tgive properinsight on it, much less know whether or not it's cast and cooldown are apropriate.

Illusion - Shadow:
Lazy Gravity at its finest. You couldn't come up with a proper call function to make a clone with the exact same looks as you? Is it really that hard or is it even that much of a hassle to code? I'm willing to think that it isn't. I remember seeing videos a long time a go where "private" (is it "pirate servers" or what?) servers were making the skill work in the manner that I described (heck, they went as far as to make the clone behave much like mercs or homunculi so I don't think it'd be that hard for a company with paid devs to make the thing in such a manner. I was actually considering the skill could be useful to have for WoE just to throw off people and let me escape/kill them, but asit is, you may as well just say "this is is here just for PvE don't even bother to get it for WoEbecause humans are meant to understand that it is a clone".

TL;DR: Ninja have a problem of being forced into builds because every other builds is either mediocre or outright useless. If you would like this class to be something more than "edgy-hipster" level support/slave, you should consider making some skills work in a better manner (Illusion - Shadow) and reduce and eliminate cooldowns of some these skills that would help enable them to get increased potential in support and damage.

PS: Most of this could have been fixed (specifically the cooldown problem) by the mere inclusion of full gear sets that enabled these builds to exist without making them overpowered by default, but I can clearly see that not even such options exist outside of "delay-free" ninja being somewhat of a possibility now with the Crescent Armguard... but you'd still need to get that to +15~20 refine and then get a Kiel card by some sort of miracle if you're unable to acquire it by purchasing it. But guessingthe chances of that ever happening arevery much zero since Gravity already went back totheir business of making content expansions to finish the storylines for Satan Morroc and prepare for the new Gunslinger expansion.

Maybe I am biased here, since I have been taking design classes for video games (mainlytounderstand the whole process and maybe to work inthe industry, since it's not really farm from my carreer path), and every time I see stuff like the current Kagerou and Oboro update implemented in a manner that kinda screams "token effort" to have them expanded because for some reason they care little for them and they're just doing it for some request (or by popular demand).

EDIT - This is just my honest opinion on this job class, I hope everyone understands this before replying in response ot it. I might consider making a new char and account in the new/merged Chaos server (didn't know of this merge until earlier in January, I'm so behind the times... orz), if only to experience how hard it may be to start a ninja from scratch once more (I remember doing it once back when they were first added, and quitting due to lack of understanding of RO mechanics)..

Edited by TheKiss, 04 February 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Kadelia]

Skills such as Cross Slash [...] really have no business getting a cooldown, since those would be the main ways a ninja would be dealing any sort of DPS in a given party.

It should be obvious from the skill's description but the point of this skill is 2 K/O perform it, not 1. They make the X like the cross slash in Crono Trigger where the two ninja both jump at the enemy from opposite directions and cross paths intersecting at the enemy. Purposely, the cross slash status effect is the same amount of time as the cooldown. So the only way to trigger the increased damage from the second hit is t pair up with a friend. Try it that way

Anyways, post was too long, didn't really read, but I have to say yes, K/O are not as strong as 3rd jobs. They maintain their role as a side for-fun diversion, just like ninja was pre-renewal.

[Facekiller]

WORDS

clearly you have not played Ninja class enough to know that in PvP a ninja can take down 3rd classes (before woe gears came out) and now K/O classes will be more of a match ... i managed to kill an MVP using only throw kunai and it took less than a few minutes to do so... this class is perfectly balanced... ive also killed 3rd classes on the test server without using OP gears (not much of a test if i use gears i dont have already on Chaos)...

[zr0rieu]

K/O were never meant to be as effective as 3rd classes so they are pretty inline with dev's intentions. They have their uses in WoE settings though.

[Kadelia]

clearly you have not played Ninja class enough to know that in PvP a ninja can take down 3rd classes (before woe gears came out) and now K/O classes will be more of a match ... i managed to kill an MVP using only throw kunai and it took less than a few minutes to do so... this class is perfectly balanced... ive also killed 3rd classes on the test server without using OP gears (not much of a test if i use gears i dont have already on Chaos)...

I've seen 3rd classes die to perma 99 archers and swordies too. I think the point we are trying to both make is if you deck out a weak class with good gear and put a competent player behind it, you can kill horrible players wearing eden gear in pvp and pretend the class is competitive because of it.

Edited by Jaye, 04 February 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[Facekiller]

they just added a graphic for cast ninja spell but it floats above the target area and not on the ground...

[TheKiss]

It should be obvious from the skill's description but the point of this skill is 2 K/O perform it, not 1. They make the X like the cross slash in Crono Trigger where the two ninja both jump at the enemy from opposite directions and cross paths intersecting at the enemy. Purposely, the cross slash status effect is the same amount of time as the cooldown. So the only way to trigger the increased damage from the second hit is t pair up with a friend. Try it that way

Anyways, post was too long, didn't really read, but I have to say yes, K/O are not as strong as 3rd jobs. They maintain their role as a side for-fun diversion, just like ninja was pre-renewal.

That isn't true, I counted.

The cooldown is at least one second longer than the skill itself. I do know for a fact that in kRO the cooldown on Cross Slash was reduced (it ones in one of the translated changelogs in iROwiki forums), but I don't know to what amount. One thing is for sure, even if you had two Kagerou/Oboro doing the skill at the same time (rather one leading and the otherstaggering), both Kagerou wouldn't deal as much damage as a Guilltine or a Ranger alone unless they were very heavily geared and,

And my post was not just about the lack of power of the class , it's that they're even mediocre in their support roles (their main deception skill doesn't even look like you so a player would just ignore the clone and go stright for you) since most of what they can do to help is get this one guy buffed/debuffed and then wait 10 seoncds to fo it again... topping it off with the fact that they are basically made useless until you cando it again.

I've seen kRO videos of recent, and Kagerou and Oboro haveliterally no presence in there (save for that one guy that's a heavy Kafra dealer and is very heavily geared). And that's only one guy out of the hundreds that I see in the videos... just one guy. I have been told from kRO players themselves, they don't even bother with Kagerou or Oboro since they pretty much do the same as the thirds jobs, except the third job do everything they do much better.

I have a feeling the the situation will be quite similar here as well, except maybe the people here would be more open-minded (or not).