382 replies to this topic

[Kadelia]

Expanded classes are for-fun side classes, a distraction for people who have mastered the core classes. They are not part of the core concept of War of Emperium and have a minor and unnecessary role in it. The one exception was soul linker.

[MrTyranitar]

Expanded classes are for-fun side classes, a distraction for people who have mastered the core classes. They are not part of the core concept of War of Emperium and have a minor and unnecessary role in it. The one exception was soul linker.

The issue resides in that K/O don't have anything to actually do even outside of WoE. They're weak and outclassed by literally everything.
Magic is their best bet and that's not even very good.

If it's a "for-fun" class, I certainly won't be having fun with such massive delays, awkward and small AoEs and pretty low damage.

[Kadelia]

nah K/O are sufficiently strong and fun in PVM, IMO! The magic builds have really high single target DPS in magic strings with 16th night, we're talking 30k damage attacks spammed almost at aspd.

The physical has a 2 dagger build which compares to a non-EDP'd GX since the 120% hand mastery accounts for advanced katar mastery and kagerou can bestow itself double attack with 2 daggers (not to mention the 2 dagger aspd is quite high... I was able to get 185+ on the sakray server without access to bakanowa tats, VIP buffs, or heroic backpack). And the kunai splash is on par with rolling cutter.

Sure the class can't compete with a ranger for party aoe dps, but who can?

[Scuba]

Could be my interest in the game going away, but I used to be really excited for the class until I tested it. I have a couple months worth of TIs I probably won't even bother turning in when the class goes live. Thoroughly disappointed. The testing was too limited to get a true feel for the things K/O would be good for.

[Exvee]

clearly you have not played Ninja class enough to know that in PvP a ninja can take down 3rd classes (before woe gears came out) and now K/O classes will be more of a match ... i managed to kill an MVP using only throw kunai and it took less than a few minutes to do so... this class is perfectly balanced... ive also killed 3rd classes on the test server without using OP gears (not much of a test if i use gears i dont have already on Chaos)...

Killing 3rd class with KS or throw kunai pvm/mvp are old stories already. What makes me disappointed is they have nothing for new role or new things to do as K/O, much like how extended super novice and TKM. AB is no longer can just do heal and buff (See battle and adoramus type), Sura is not GFist slave anymore, Ranger, RK/RG, etc... With every skills underpowered, I think this class can be like TKM, where all star skills useless and rather you max your 1st class skills that more useful..

[MrTyranitar]

nah K/O are sufficiently strong and fun in PVM, IMO! The magic builds have really high single target DPS in magic strings with 16th night, we're talking 30k damage attacks spammed almost at aspd.

The physical has a 2 dagger build which compares to a non-EDP'd GX since the 120% hand mastery accounts for advanced katar mastery and kagerou can bestow itself double attack with 2 daggers (not to mention the 2 dagger aspd is quite high... I was able to get 185+ on the sakray server without access to bakanowa tats, VIP buffs, or heroic backpack). And the kunai splash is on par with rolling cutter.

Sure the class can't compete with a ranger for party aoe dps, but who can?

Kunai Splash is a LOT weaker than non-EDPed RC. RC also doesn't require 16 Weight (8 Kunai, 100 uses which is really small is 1,600 weight to bring) and force an element onto you. Outside of Kunai Splash though, the skills have long cast times, delays, and fairly low damage (except for Kunai Explosion but that falls under long cast time/delay, with really awkward AoE).
Single target killing generally isn't too good to begin with, although I guess dual-wielding might do some good damage to lower-level MVPs or something. Do off-hand cards affect the Kunai skills? And do the mastery skills affect them at all?

Who can compete with Rangers? Okay.
Fire weak mobs: Stringed DBs will be better, always, unless the RK has 1 VIT and 1 INT and no Dragon Training or something
Well-geared Geneticist can pull off similar/more DPS not factoring in Camo (which isn't always practical to use)
Stringed Mado Mechs can do a bit less DPS (at the expense of actually having some defenses to them), they'll do a lot more if the mob is holy/shadow weak (two common elements that shut down magic Ninjas, for instance)
Well-geared Sorcerers/Warlocks

Rangers aren't unbeatable... They're great burst damage but they're not the best thing to ever happen.

Edited by MrTyranitar, 04 February 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[TheKraven]

they seem to play a better supportive role for woe and wont be used to kill much

[Kadelia]

Kunai Splash is a LOT weaker than non-EDPed RC. RC also doesn't require 16 Weight (8 Kunai, 100 uses which is really small is 1,600 weight to bring) and force an element onto you. Outside of Kunai Splash though, the skills have long cast times, delays, and fairly low damage (except for Kunai Explosion but that falls under long cast time/delay, with really awkward AoE).
Single target killing generally isn't too good to begin with, although I guess dual-wielding might do some good damage to lower-level MVPs or something. Do off-hand cards affect the Kunai skills? And do the mastery skills affect them at all?

Who can compete with Rangers? Okay.
Fire weak mobs: Stringed DBs will be better, always, unless the RK has 1 VIT and 1 INT and no Dragon Training or something
Well-geared Geneticist can pull off similar/more DPS not factoring in Camo (which isn't always practical to use)
Stringed Mado Mechs can do a bit less DPS (at the expense of actually having some defenses to them), they'll do a lot more if the mob is holy/shadow weak (two common elements that shut down magic Ninjas, for instance)
Well-geared Sorcerers/Warlocks

Rangers aren't unbeatable... They're great burst damage but they're not the best thing to ever happen.

Don't agree with any of this but don't have the energy to argue in full detail. Gene can't compete with ranger without megingjards and mjolnir at all. No contest. Maybe if you compare a BAD ranger to a GOOD gene.. lol. Same with RK. No tao, no competesies. Even with strings. Esp. considering the SP drain on RK. lol @ mado mech or warlock coming even close to a good ranger. The classes need godlikes and mvps to compete with a good ranger. And if you're going to give them that, give the ranger thanatos and the ranger wins again. Dual wielding the ninja's DPS with 120% on main hand and extra cards in off hand crushes the DPS of a katar wielding GX with RC who isn't using edp.

[MrTyranitar]

Don't agree with any of this but don't have the energy to argue in full detail. Gene can't compete with ranger without megingjards and mjolnir at all. No contest. Maybe if you compare a BAD ranger to a GOOD gene.. lol. Same with RK. No tao, no competesies. Even with strings. Esp. considering the SP drain on RK. lol @ mado mech or warlock coming even close to a good ranger. The classes need godlikes and mvps to compete with a good ranger. And if you're going to give them that, give the ranger thanatos and the ranger wins again. Dual wielding the ninja's DPS with 120% on main hand and extra cards in off hand crushes the DPS of a katar wielding GX with RC who isn't using edp.

Over the course of 3 seconds AS is used once. (you do 60k ASes? your DPS is 20k)
Over the course of 3 seconds a stringed DB can be used 3 or more times. Fire weak mob? It isn't being beat by AS.
Over the course of 3 seconds a stringed Arm Cannon Lv2 can be used 3 times I believe. Holy/Shadow weak? It isn't being beat by AS. (unless the Ranger has Aspersio active I suppose, even then, they're likely just matching its DPS)
Over the course of 3 seconds Cart Cannon can be cast about 3 times without strings (strings will make this easier though).
And for the hell of it:
Over the course of 3 seconds Rolling Cutter can be used about 4 or 5 times depending on gear.

You don't need god items or MVPs to compete with a Ranger's DPS in PVM lmfao.
(you also seem to think all Rangers sport +12s with MVPs and great enchants)

Edited by MrTyranitar, 04 February 2013 - 09:34 PM.

[Scuba]

This thread is now about RANGERS

[Senkasa]

Seriously off topic guys. Screw the DPS thing right now. These bugs HAVE to be polished and fixed before K/O Is even released on the renewal server

[Kadelia]

Over the course of 3 seconds AS is used once. (you do 60k ASes? your DPS is 20k)
Over the course of 3 seconds a stringed DB can be used 3 or more times. Fire weak mob? It isn't being beat by AS.
Over the course of 3 seconds a stringed Arm Cannon Lv2 can be used 3 times I believe. Holy/Shadow weak? It isn't being beat by AS. (unless the Ranger has Aspersio active I suppose, even then, they're likely just matching its DPS)
Over the course of 3 seconds Cart Cannon can be cast about 3 times without strings (strings will make this easier though).
And for the hell of it:
Over the course of 3 seconds Rolling Cutter can be used about 4 or 5 times depending on gear.

You don't need god items or MVPs to compete with a Ranger's DPS in PVM lmfao.
(you also seem to think all Rangers sport +12s with MVPs and great enchants)

You see the flawed cornerstone of your post is you look at a bad ranger's 60k and think that's it. A good ranger can do 120k+. A thanatos ranger can do 180k++.

[Facekiller]

Dont like K/O? dont play em...now can we get back on topic?

[Scuba]

K/O will be released today bugfixes or not.

/thread

[ShinWolf]

@FaceKiller

I want you to have the first 2nd Class Ninja don't fail me I have 3x BM for u for sell lol

[Facekiller]

heh... im gonna try... ill be logged out for main at the job change starting point... just gotta log in as soon as maint is over and go from there... ive had plenty of practice with the job change tests now...

[gicko]

Hello,i have +8 gladius[3] in chaos and i would like to ask if it is a decent weapon for throwing build? if it is what cards should i put there to improve my throw skills? ty

[Facekiller]

put in 3 hunter fly cards and youll rarely need to heal

[gicko]

Thx for the answer, last question: Can dual daggers beats huuma with throwing skills like exploding kunai in terms of damage?

[Facekiller]

no... huuma have better base attack....

[MrTyranitar]

no... huuma have better base attack....

Except dual daggers will grant you extra card slots for Archer Skeletons, or the aforementioned Hunter Fly Cards.
I tried out Swirling Petal with a +10 Double Kingbird Huuma Swirling Petal (that pink one), 100 Str, 90 Agi, 90 Dex and it only does about ~10-12k. With the same gear Exploding Kunai does like over 20k.

If only Kunai Splash didn't require the first job kunais. 16 weight per use is terrible (and being forced into a generally undesirable element).

Edited by MrTyranitar, 05 February 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Kadelia]

The weight issue is pretty bad though, say compared to severe rainstorm or arrow storm, which is 20 arrows or 10 arrows, respectively. Elven arrows are 0.1 weight and steel arrows 0.2 so either way its 2 weight per cast for performers and shadow chasers, respectively. Even when you consider that a kunai ninja has STR while performers and chasers won't, that is still a 4:1 ratio weight disadvantage. And no quiver equivalency for ninja kunai.

The element is meaningless with elemental converters, cursed water, and aspersio at play.

Edited by Jaye, 05 February 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[TheKiss]

^ Last I checked, Kunai Splash ignores weapon's element so the element comes directly from the Kunai. Well, that's what I read from kRO translation of skills.

[Kadelia]

^ Last I checked, Kunai Splash ignores weapon's element so the element comes directly from the Kunai. Well, that's what I read from kRO translation of skills.

skill native element > converter > endow > ammunition > weapon

If a skill isn't forced to a specific element, the weapon is rife to be overriden easily. Since the kunai are required to use the skill and there aren't any non-elemental kunai, weapon element will NEVER factor into kunai skills.

[MrTyranitar]

The weight issue is pretty bad though, say compared to severe rainstorm or arrow storm, which is 20 arrows or 10 arrows, respectively. Elven arrows are 0.1 weight and steel arrows 0.2 so either way its 2 weight per cast for performers and shadow chasers, respectively. Even when you consider that a kunai ninja has STR while performers and chasers won't, that is still a 4:1 ratio weight disadvantage. And no quiver equivalency for ninja kunai.

The element is meaningless with elemental converters, cursed water, and aspersio at play.

Aspersio requires having someone with you at all times to rebuff every 3 minutes (if they maxed it). So that rules out soloing.
Cursed Waters are rarely useful.
And converters... why bother if you can just use a different element Kunai?

IIRC Kunai Splash isn't boosted by STR in the slightest, just DEX (and AGI I think? can't remember), so they'll have to skimp out on it to even do damage with it.