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Kagerou/Oboro: Kunai Build Discussion


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#26 PedroProplayer

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:11 AM

I was thinking of getting both Kunai Explosion and Fuuma Petal. They each have 3 second cooldowns before u can recast them, so alternating between the two to kill a large mob should be possible.
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#27 Dammage

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:11 PM

For Kunai Explosion, is it important to go for the R and L hand masteries, or are they not important?


i also wanna know this, does anybody know?
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#28 carlos1689

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:18 PM

Well , right hand mastery improves the damage a bit, but i think it depends on the weapon you put on right hand though
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#29 Riakuta

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

i also wanna know this, does anybody know?


Right Hand Mastery and Left Hand Master work the same way as Assassin Right Hand Mastery and Left Hand Mastery in which it only effects Melee damage (Physically Attacking). It will not increase the damage or effect the damage of skills.
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#30 Kadelia

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:34 PM

http://irowiki.org/w...Kunai_Explosion

May need attention from an expert

Edited by Jaye, 15 February 2013 - 06:34 PM.

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#31 Riakuta

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:36 PM

http://irowiki.org/w...Kunai_Explosion

May need attention from an expert


You forgot to add that this skill is Forced Neutral similar to Cart Cannon so it will miss on Ghost Property Monsters.
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#32 Kadelia

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:37 PM

I'll put it under notes:

* This skill behaves strangely with elements similar to cart cannon where it is treated as forced neutral but applies elemental modifiers normally. The only practical application of this knowledge is that the skill will always miss on ghosts, regardless of your elemental endow. For non-ghost enemies, the damage increases as expected with endows and enemy elemental weaknesses.


Edited by Jaye, 15 February 2013 - 06:39 PM.

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#33 Riakuta

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:10 AM

Here is a short video not very instructive, but hope it helps.

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#34 Kadelia

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:36 AM

Updated the tables in the wiki to be more correct.
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#35 magiccircle

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:33 AM

Think of kunai explosion as a supped up cart cannon. They have the same type of basis for damage.

Both are increased by Endow/converters. That being said the absolute best combination you can achieve against any monster not weak to earth is 9 (Earth) charms + Elemental Endow/Mild Wind.
The best setup against monsters weak to earth is 10 earth charms for the endow effect and the increased attack.
Both do not miss. Skills like guard/parry, penuma still block it though.
Both have skills that increase there damage. Kunai Explosion is boosted by Dagger Throwing Practice.
Both have a stat that adds bonus damage. Kunai Explosion gains bonus damage from DEX.
Both gain bonus damage from having items equipped. Kunai Explosion gets a small amount of damage from the kunai you have equipped.
Both are FORCED neutral. Meaning Kunai Explosion will fail against ghost3 or higher monsters.
Attack is the main factor in increasing damage.

The only thing really different is that Kunai Explosion has a cooldown and is mostly fixed cast time.
This is offset with the fact that you can use 2 weapons. (Main for ATK, Offhand for Bonus % cards)
Currently the absolute best setup WITHOUT MVP CARDS is a +9~12 Grimtooth with EA enchants/+9~12 RWC Memory Knife/W RWC ring, and a 4x Kingbird (Archer Skel) Main Gauche.
The of disadvantage of Kagerou/Oboro is that daggers have really bad size penalties. 100/75/50 means you will lose a lot of damage against medium/large monsters.

Edited by magiccircle, 18 February 2013 - 12:35 AM.

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#36 Raidius

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:54 AM

kunai explosion doesnt gain dmg from having shurikens or kunais equipped, tested without any gear/buff and dmg was the same
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#37 Kadelia

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

Think of kunai explosion as a supped up cart cannon. They have the same type of basis for damage.

Both are increased by Endow/converters. That being said the absolute best combination you can achieve against any monster not weak to earth is 9 (Earth) charms + Elemental Endow/Mild Wind.
The best setup against monsters weak to earth is 10 earth charms for the endow effect and the increased attack.
Both do not miss. Skills like guard/parry, penuma still block it though. <-- it is better to say it has 100% accuracy despite your HIT stat.
Both have skills that increase there damage. Kunai Explosion is boosted by Dagger Throwing Practice.
Both have a stat that adds bonus damage. Kunai Explosion gains bonus damage from DEX.
Both gain bonus damage from having items equipped. Kunai Explosion gets a small amount of damage from the kunai you have equipped. <-- This skill does not check your equipped kunai at all.
Both are FORCED neutral. Meaning Kunai Explosion will fail against ghost3 or higher monsters. <-- it won't hit ghosts but I don't like the phrase "forced neutral", explained here.
Attack is the main factor in increasing damage.

The only thing really different is that Kunai Explosion has a cooldown and is mostly fixed cast time. <-- they are different in a lot of ways. It's also not "mostly" fixed cast time. If you use 16th night it removes the fixed cast time entirely and all that is left is a substantial amount of variable (like 2 seconds?) so you need high INT/DEX or a lo of -% variable gear tro cast quickly... just like a genetic!.
This is offset with the fact that you can use 2 weapons. (Main for ATK, Offhand for Bonus % cards) <-- offset cast time with damage? Not. Besides, Genetics can hold a rather strong 2 handed weapon called a Hurricane Fury which has a base ATK of 332 and can be expert archer enchanted as well.
Currently the absolute best setup WITHOUT MVP CARDS is a +9~12 Grimtooth with EA enchants/+9~12 RWC Memory Knife/W RWC ring, and a 4x Kingbird (Archer Skel) Main Gauche.
The of disadvantage of Kagerou/Oboro is that daggers have really bad size penalties. 100/75/50 means you will lose a lot of damage against medium/large monsters. <-- this disadvantage doesn't really apply to the RWC knife, as the effect of -50% weapon atk on a 50 atk weapon is quite minor :)


Edited by Jaye, 18 February 2013 - 07:31 AM.

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#38 Kadelia

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:39 AM

I did some testing just now after buying an enchanted grimtooth.

With both weapons I used a Quadruple Beholder main gauche on an ice titan (no endow, just neutral).

+9 Grimtooth (180 ATK) Expert Archer 3 & 4 (+14% ranged damage) - 30,000~33,000 damage
+12 Kingbird RWC Memory Knife - 32,000~33,000 damage

The grimtooth could be +12 and could have better expert archer enchants. I would anticipate a +12 EA5+EA5 Grimtooth to do 32000~35000 damage.

Honestly, given the -50% DEF of the grimtooth, I'd rate the RWC Knife as the better gear, since minimum damage is what matters when trying to 1 shot stuff and they are equally good there, and the RWC knife doesn't have the same downside. Given that ice titan is a large monster, the "perfected" Grimtooth should be better damage on medium and small monsters.

Now, an extra interesting test I did was putting the Grimtooth in my right hand and the RWC Knife in the left hand. While offhand attack doesn't do anything with skills, the set bonus and upgarde bonus of the RWC Knife is added to main hand, and the set/upgrade bonus in the case of a +12 RWC Knife is 260 ATK and a kingbird card and a +10% damage effect. Together I tried this

Grimtooth+RWC Knife = 28,000 damage on the Ice Titan

While the damage was noticeably lower than using a carded main gauche, this presents an interesting setup. I would be curious how this compares to a kingbird main gauche in the offhand? For maps with a diverse array of enemies where a +80% or +96% main gauche is too specific and only works on one of the monsters on the map... a kingbird is necessary... but how does the RWC knife compare in the offhand? I don't have a kingbird main gauche to test. :(
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#39 Trickplay

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:28 PM

How does this look for a throwing skill build?
http://irowiki.org/~...1bsrKqAaddBdBdn
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#40 pikachiquita5

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:54 PM

In regard to stats for a Kunai Explosion build.....should it be mostly STR and DEX with a bit thrown into VIT and INT?

My purpose of doing TIs these days is to interrogate the various ninjas in the party and ask about how they built, and I get all sorts of different answers. Some are almost purely STR/DEX, one was relatively high STR, high DEX, and threw the rest into LUK to increase ATK, and I've gotten various other answers so I'm still stumped.

Bear in mind that I don't have a super enchanted Grimtooth/RWC dagger. I am guessing for offhand the best thing is a quad kingbird MG?

EDIT: I'm undecided now as to what would be a good secondary skill for a Kunai Explosion ninja........are people pretty happy with Swirling Petals? I know there is a cooldown for using K.Explosion, I'm just still trying to figure out what would be good to have on hand while the CD is in effect.

Edited by pikachiquita5, 21 February 2013 - 04:03 PM.

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#41 MeisterKirisaki

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

That's what I use in the TI:
Posted Image


Damage comparison 4x AS Main Gauche vs. 4x Size Main Gauche:
Posted Image
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#42 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

EDIT: I'm undecided now as to what would be a good secondary skill for a Kunai Explosion ninja........are people pretty happy with Swirling Petals? I know there is a cooldown for using K.Explosion, I'm just still trying to figure out what would be good to have on hand while the CD is in effect.

Swirling petal requires you to be equipped with a huuma shuriken, so you would need to kunai explosion with a huuma most likely, if that was your pair of skills. With a huuma I could see the damage of kunai explosion being a lot lower.
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#43 Raidius

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:09 PM

yeah jaye you pointed rwc was better since before, the problem is that many cant afford to +12 weapon for an alt or a for fun char (which mostly these are)
you think would be better rwc than grimtooth if would be a +7-+9? both of course
then again getting grimtooth with 2xEA5 isnt exactly cheap unless you are lucky
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#44 Kadelia

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:52 PM

Well, without the expert archer enchants, the grimtooth isn't that good, but it is the highest ATK weapon. And without a lot of upgrades, the RWC knife isn't that great.

This article is about MAIN HAND weapon! Off-hand should be a 4 slot weapon with cards, or an RWC Knife.

Things to know:
  • Weapon ATK is variable (weapon level *5% variance. So a level 4 weapon does +/- 20%, meaning 80~120% of its ATK.) Also Weapon ATK is increased by 0.5% per 1 STR. So 100 STR means W.ATK is +50%. Weapon attack is affected by the size of the enemy
  • Equip Attack is non-variable and not affected by STR. The lack of variance can make it more reliable due to higher min damage, but lower max damage, and can't be boosted by STR. Equip attack is not affected by the size of the enemy.
  • Upgrade attack is not affected by STR; upgrade attack is not affected by level variance. Upgrade attack is affected by the size of the enemy. Its similar to equip attack except enemy size matters.
The List:
  • +15 RWC Knife [1] + RWC Ring [0] (50 W.ATK, 270 E.ATK, 75 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Its a level 3 weapon so I guess +15 isn't out of the question, but I've not really seen any, so good luck with that.
  • +12 Grimtooth [EA6][EA6] (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Halves DEF which is bad, Most of ATK is from weapon, so STR helps a lot, size matters a lot. The +24% ranged damage from the expert archer enchants make a big deal of difference. The main reason this beats the glorious weapon against humans is the slaughter bonus/demi bonus only applies to base weapon attack and equip attack, while ranged mods work on your status attack as well.
  • +12 Glorious Gladius (120 W.ATK, 0 E.Attack, 84 Upgrade ATK, 148 DemiMod ATK) ~ Notes: Against demi humans only. At higher STR values the +12 Grimtooth[EA4][EA4] may actually be better. I don't believe the DEF piercing effect of the glorious weapon works with Killing Stroke. Can someone test?
  • +12 Grimtooth [EA4][EA4] (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Halves DEF which is bad, Most of ATK is from weapon, so STR helps a lot, size matters a lot. The +16% ranged damage overtakes the benefit of the RWC knife's card slot and +10% damage ability, and the extra ATK that can be gained from STR makes it slightly better than the RWC knife. EA5~6 enchants willbe even better.
  • +12 Sucsamad [1] [EA4][EA4] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ +26% ranged w/ Archer skel. Similar damage to the grimtooth without the drawback, but less ATK.
  • +12 RWC Knife [1] + RWC Ring [0] (50 W.ATK, 200 E.ATK, 60 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: no drawbacks, most of ATK is Equip-type so STR and enemy size matters less. Card Slot and a built in 10% damage to all enemies effect.
  • +12 Sucsamad [1] [EA3][EA3] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ +22% ranged w/ Archer skel. Similar damage to a malangdo enchanted +9 grimtooth.
  • +9 Grimtooth [EA3][EA3] (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above. The +12% ranged damage overtakes the benefit of the RWC knife's card slot and +10% damage ability.
  • +9 RWC Knife [1] + RWC Ring [0] (50 W.ATK, 150 E.ATK, 45 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +12 Vellum Damascus (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: It's a grimtooth without the drawback. Unfortunately, the extra ATK going from +9 to +12 doesn't really overturn the good abilities of the RWC Knife, they are about the same (unless you had an absurd amount of STR: think megingjards).
  • +12 Ginnungagap [1] (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Pretty close to the +12 grimtooth when carded archer skeleton, but no def 1/2 drawback. Serious waste of money to make.
  • +12 Sucsamad [1] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Pretty close to the +12 grimtooth when carded archer skeleton, but no def 1/2 drawback. Serious waste of money to make.
  • +12 Grimtooth (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: halves DEF which is bad, Most of ATK is from weapon, so STR helps a lot, size matters a lot. You'll note even a +9 grimtooth is better if it has malangdo enchants. Grimtooth really needs malangdo enchants!
  • +7 Grimtooth [EA3][EA3] (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: +12% ranged and a lot of W.ATK. 1/2 Def drawback.
  • +9 Sucsamad [1] ([EA3][EA3] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ +22% ranged w/ archer skel card.
  • +9 Vellum Damascus (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: It's a grimtooth without the 1/2 def drawback.
  • +9 Ginnungagap [1] (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Serious waste of money to make.
  • +9 Sucsamad [1] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Serious waste of money to make.
  • +9 Grimtooth (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +4 Sucsamad [1] ([EA3][EA3] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ +22% ranged w/ archer skel card.
  • +7 Vellum Damascus (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +7 RWC Knife [1] + RWC Ring [0] (50 W.ATK, 110 E.ATK, 35 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +7 Ginnungagap [1] (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +7 Sucsamad [1] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Serious waste of money.
  • +7 Grimtooth (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +7 Dragon Killer [2] (110 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: rates about here if it's double kingbird. Not a good investment IMO.
  • +4 Vellum Damascus (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +4 Ginnungagap [1] (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. See Above
  • +4 Sucsamad [1] (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. Add archer skel card. Slightly better on wind/earth monsters.
  • +4 Sucsamad ([EA3][EA3] 140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: prohibitively expensive to enchant. Buy a grimtooth.
  • +4 Grimtooth (180 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: See Above
  • +9 Ginnungagap (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. See Above
  • +9 Sucsamad (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 63 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Serious waste of money to make. Get a +4 Ginnungagap.
  • +7 Hakujin [1] (120 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 35 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: rates about here if it's kingbird.
  • +7 Murasame [2] (95 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 21 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: rates about here if it's double kingbird. Pretty sad, though.
  • +6 RWC Knife [1] + RWC Ring [0] (50 W.ATK, 80 E.ATK, 30 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: +5% damage to enemeis and a card slot for archer skel.
  • +9 Khukri (150 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 45 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Serious waste of money. Get a +4 Ginnungagap.
  • +7 Ginnungagap (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. See Above
  • +7 Sucsamad (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 49 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. Slightly better on wind/earth monsters.
  • +12 Princess Knife (84 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 84 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: +1 to all stats. A waste of money nowadays but I owned one from pre-RWC knife for leveling novices.
  • +7 Khukri (150 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 35 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Cheap.
  • +4 Ginnungagap (148 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. See Above
  • +4 Sucsamad (140 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 28 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Inexpensive. Slightly better on wind/earth monsters.
  • +5 Khukri (150 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 25 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Cheap.
  • Eden Dagger III (165 W.ATK, 0 E.ATK, 0 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: Free.
  • +5 RWC Knife [1] + RWC Ring [0] (50 W.ATK, 50 E.ATK, 25 Upgrade ATK) ~ Notes: RWC Knife is not useful unless it's upgraded a bit more.
Things to learn from the chart:
  • Grimtooth is only particularly top tier when enchanted in malangdo.
  • RWC knife is always good.
  • Grimtooth isn't as good at lower levels when your STR is low.
  • Eden gear sucks.
  • Vellum Damascus is surprisingly useful!

Edited by Jaye, 28 February 2013 - 09:38 PM.

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#45 TheSquishy

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:07 PM

I'm using a Sucsamad because i blew all my zeny on things I didn't need.
It's getting the job done for the price.
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#46 Kadelia

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:09 PM

Let me go ahead and add the Sucsamad to my list\

Ginnungagap [0] is like 800k and is better than the Sucsamad [0], something to consider.

Edited by Jaye, 22 February 2013 - 08:27 PM.

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#47 Raidius

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:06 PM

thank god i got good str for my gt
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#48 Riakuta

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

Let me go ahead and add the Sucsamad to my list\

Ginnungagap [0] is like 800k and is better than the Sucsamad [0], something to consider.


You're forgetting something very important here. Sucsamad [0] can be Malangdo Enchanted with Expert Archer Enchants. Ginnungagap [0] cannot.
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#49 Kadelia

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:14 PM

Its weird that Ginnungagap cannot be since its lvl 4.

the cost of malangdo enchanting a Suscamad to EA3/EA3 or better would exceed the cost of a +4 Grimtooth. For someone poor and a budget under 100m, I'd say pick the grimtooth instead of messing with malangdo enchants.

If you DO have money, when you add the cost of the archer skel card to the suscamad, they are about the same cost, but the grimtooth does more damage. So Unless you are super concerned about the DEF penalty (which is not a huge deal because you are already shieldless and low DEF before its even halved) the grimtooth is a better investment.

Its a good thing you guys brought up the suscamad and its ability to be malangdo enchanted though, because its actually a really good weapon when enchanted, which I didn't think about. It's top tier.

Edited by Jaye, 22 February 2013 - 09:33 PM.

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#50 pikachiquita5

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:21 AM

Swirling petal requires you to be equipped with a huuma shuriken, so you would need to kunai explosion with a huuma most likely, if that was your pair of skills. With a huuma I could see the damage of kunai explosion being a lot lower.


I could just go and hotkey weapons so that I could go between huuma and daggers for the two skills =) However, what do you have as your secondary skill Jaye, if you have one at all? Or you just pretty much utilize kunai explosion to the exclusion of anything else?
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