397 replies to this topic

[jdmtouch]

yes pls mecnoop. I want to feel powerful again playing a monk

[jellopyking]

i hve a lvl 33 monk myself.. i agree, not the best tank of the bunch.. form my experiences these can be improved upon:

 

guilotine fist + fury explosion - cd too long and especially in colo, have to be used in tune.. fury explode then die gf wont be usable for a bit of time.. cut the cd to half @ 30 secs each

 

th emonk has barely any useful aoe for managing adds / useless offtank

my suggestion - make guilotine fist aoe - 10m radius (dont really know how wide that is, just using range of sanctuary) change its animation to the old RO1 guilotine fist animation so it seems as if the monk is striking the ground. (give it cast time so people have a chance to run)

 

lightning crush - a desparate attempt of the monk to keep the adds from hitting his party mates

add some sort of stun to this skill.. already implemented in other classes as i;ve observed in colo, not sure which, u know when a bunch of people are in a spot, then one second those people are on the ground, either bm or warrior does that, i think..

Edited by jellopyking, 30 August 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[ApathyPizza]

Just throwing this out there, why bring up Beast Masters?

Maybe in colosseum, I guess, but in overworld gameplay they are already pretty buff if you know how to play them.

 

There are beast masters that can run around dungeons in hard mode without really having good gear and solo the bosses.  I've been in parties with them while it has happened.  If you know how to play a beast master, they can be a pretty well rounded class.  It's just a matter of knowing how to make them correctly.

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm provoking an argument, but I just wanted to make that point; because I know of a few specific beast masters who would be upset with this post if they were to find out that you doubted their ability.

[DatMONKey]

Most of what we're talking about pertains to endgame. I can imagine a BM being a good Tank for normal Raids but their low defense makes me wary of them being a MT in CoA and beyond.

I believe they were originally brought up because they are in desperate need of improvements as well.

[ApathyPizza]

Hard mode IS part of the end game and as I stated, they were soloing HARD MODE dungeon bosses with RHD gear.  Not Raid Gear, not colo gear, RHD gear.  Put a beast master with that knowledge of his character into a good gear set, and they are pretty unstoppable.

 

We used to think that beast masters were weak, same as you; before we met "Good Beast Masters".  Now we prefer to use Beast Master as MT in hard mode raids when a good one is available.

Edited by ApathyPizza, 30 August 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[DatMONKey]

Why do you think soloing a Hard Dungeon boss is not much of an achievement. I'm not sure why you're using that as a measure for usefulness. A Priest can solo those things too, they just need time.

Either way this is a Monk topic so let's keep this about Monks.

[ApathyPizza]

"is not much of an achievement"? You speak english, right?

I'm implying that a beast master with RHD gear can solo Hard Dungeon Bosses. This implies that if they can SOLO a BOSS in HARD MODE with NOOB GEAR that they are ALREADY buff (provided that the player knows how to build them correctly).

 

I brought up Beast Master's because the OP has beast master's listed as "needing help".

 

 

Anyway, I'll get down to it. Monks need help now. Beastmasters need help now.

 

 

Anyways, I'm not going to argue this subject anymore.

Anyone crying that beast masters are underpowered doesn't know how to play a beast master, or simply built theres wrong.

 

I've gone into WoE with just me, a beast master, and a DPS priest.  Defeated Execution Meister while getting attacked by players and survived just fine.  If had been using any other tank, we would have been killed for sure.  Don't bring down beast masters just because you don't know how to play them.  I've been making a habbit of saying this lately, but it applies every time I say it -- THINK before you post.

 

Like I stated, I did not intend for my statement to lead to an argument.   I wrote the message I wanted to write, and made the point I wanted to illustrate.  I will not be viewing this topic anymore - so don't waste your keystrokes on a message that I wont even read.  This message was for informational purposes only.

 

 

Edited by ApathyPizza, 30 August 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Leinzan]

^not that I want to discuss or anything... but are you by any chance implying that Beastmasters should not be improved at all in any possible way, manner or form?

 

I know they are scary first hand since I've fought them in colo and I've seen them survive an onslaught of 5~7 people for long enough. Don't know their skills at all tho, but the OP isn't suggesting a nerf, but an improvement that you, as a main Beasmaster I dare say, would be the most benified from, right? Then why argue agaisnt??

[Rukaroa]

Hey guys, getting derailed here.

[Meconopsis]

Ah, just to note. All my suggestions aren't just mere ideas that would help improve monk. I think having a few of my suggestions alongside comparing with other monk players and other tank players can help understand what monks need so they do not border being overpowered or too weak.

I understand monk is not truly at a bad place. Still, it is very outclassed overall. Their defenses and health might be above the warrior and knight tanks, but understand the majority of pick up groups would rather have the latter than a monk, due to buffs, reliable skills, and best off, priests and assassins don't have to fight over gear tokens with them.

My goal is to highlight why our playerbase is so minimal alongside beastmasters. I never stated exactly that beastmasters are weak. But trust me, this is neither the place for me to state what beastmasters could improve on as I lack the analysis and play time to make an actual judgment.

Anyway, i also think a lot of the discussions about some of my suggestions are logical. Of course our ideas differ but that's what players need - to find a balance between player skill levels. Hopefully it reaches the developers and they can formulate a method of buffs.

Unless they were saving monk to have a broken class advancement...

[DatMONKey]

It's best for us to call it as we see it. They goofed a lot during the development of the Monk skills and we are left with a class with a strong core, good base stats but terrible scaling when it matters.

Besides even if they had plans for a advance class that is no reason for them to leave us so incomplete for so long.

[Turniper]

After seeing people say BMs don't need any changes i just thought i'd butt in. ^-^

 

RHD bosses are easy to solo as BMs because their damage is easily mitigated by self heals. We pretty much have an infinite amount of hp against those nubs. The same is also true with lesser raid bosses. I've tanked bapho N with no healer before and most bosses in pve H with just a sorc and i doubt that's something non-BM tanks can do. The problem comes with CoA and probably AoD. Not only is boss damage output in CoA extremely high compared to other raids, but players also get nerfed badly against level 52+ bosses. Defense, dodge and parry get nerfed which is bad enough for every tank including BMs but our already horrendous hit rate (from tank gear not having any hit boosts) gets nerfed even more making self heals unreliable. SOO my point here is that because of crappy design there's a steep curve for BMs in CoA (it's hard as crap but still doable... at least until those cores spawn on RM H...) and it'll only get worse against even higher level bosses in AoD.

 

The only changes BMs really need are a hit boost on tank gear or 100% hit rate on cruel bite at least, shorter CD on frenzy and feral defense, and maybe a change in the stupid butt scratching bear form to something more... 

[DatMONKey]

I've tanked bapho N with no healer before and most bosses in pve H with just a sorc and i doubt that's something non-BM tanks can do. 

I hope you're not serious.

 

Either way I agree with most of your other points but please, let's not derail the thread.

[Zechrem]

Another balance factor I would like to see is have raw additions from upgrading rather than % based (since you see a larger difference between some classes)

[xGanelon]

and regarding the Guillotine Fist, 1 min. cool down is bearable but as far as I know, it should be the "supposedly ONE HIT KO Asura Strike" version from Ragnarok 1... but sadly... its reputation has been dragged down as mediocre damage skill.... not mentioning the lame animation and delay ><.... The animation of Asura Strike from Ragnarok 1 was only 2D but still looks a hell cooler than Ragnarok's 3D counterpart. LAME ><

 

 

lame Fury explosion animation... 2D version was even way better...

 

Edited by xGanelon, 31 August 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Turniper]

I hope you're not serious.

 

Either way I agree with most of your other points but please, let's not derail the thread.

Right... with the monks I've seen they don't really have a problem with single target tanking. Their high defense and hp gives them much more durability than swordies since they can take more while at the same time taking less. In terms of aggro generation I've never seen a well geared monk with problems gaining threat. Sure these days you might have fresh RHD geared tanks doing pve or bapho n with a colo geared dps but that's a totally different problem than class inbalance. For aoe threat generation monks aren't really called on for that. If a monk and swordie are in the same party usually the swordie gets the off tank role since they're known for aoe threat generation while anyone who knows their stuff would say that monks are better single target tanks, no one looks down on monks and only an idiot would explicitly reject a monk from a raid saying "sry warrs/knghts nly"

 

Of course that doesn't hold true all the way... especially in AoD you'll have bosses with nasty AoEs and people will have parties labeled "shield fortress or gtfo". Monks don't have any skills that can save their party members from dying. Knights are the only tank class with this ability. BMs also have survival which heals the party for 10% hp but that still wont save anyone unless they're bleeding out after pricking their finger. Every tank class should be able to do this or else tanking goes from keeping the party alive to staying alive while hoping the boss doesnt throw any dirty looks at the dps. The only problem is that you can't just give everyone shield fortress because then we'd all slowly turn into knights and everyone BUT knights would be better knights than knights. It's pretty much the same with all the cons you listed since taking out all the cons would leave only pros and then monks or BMs would be op while anyone who made a war or knight would feel shafted getting stuck with a subpar tank. In my opinion it's not the tanks that need fixing but the things we're tanking. The ONLY thing knights have over the heads of other tanks is shield fortress, not because shield fortress is totally awesome but because we have dungeons where bosses throw unavoidable AOEs that require shield fortress for the weaker members to stay alive. It's cheap and total bs.

 

And to tie this up and keep it all relevant to the op... no, monks really don't need attention right now. It's the endgame content that needs attention. RM needs attention instead of just a "here's two extra minutes on his 'blow your asses to kingdom come' timer because **** you if you can keep from getting torn to bits for that long without paying out the ass (and **** you more if you can survive that long even WITH paying out the ass lol)"

 

And one last thing... 

Edited by Turniper, 31 August 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[NuwaChan]

After playing Monk a bit:

It would be nice if heavy tackle's range was increased by 5m so you would not have to reposition so often for it to actually hit 3 mobs..

I would be great if flee had a movement bonus, this way gathering would go quicker,.

Throw Spirit should have a -20% speed debuff.

With Gf I am not sure if speeding up the animation is possible, either completely change the GF animation, or make the stun last 6sec.

GF needs to hit more often and do more damage. What if GF was more like the Ro version where it would eat your sp and increase

your damage based on the SP used.

Change Lightning Crush to Occult Impact, add ignores defence to it.

Change Wis to AGI on gloves, boots, and pants. boost the str and def values on all monk gear

[ChopChopz]

 

 

And to tie this up and keep it all relevant to the op... no, monks really don't need attention right now. It's the endgame content that needs attention. RM needs attention instead of just a "here's two extra minutes on his 'blow your asses to kingdom come' timer because **** you if you can keep from getting torn to bits for that long without paying out the ass (and **** you more if you can survive that long even WITH paying out the ass lol)"

 

And one last thing... 

 

I agree with you that is the problem of the game....

There are 4 tank classes and only 2 slot for tanks

There are 4 DPS classes and there is 4 dps slots

And only 2 support classes but they take up 4 slots

This is just wrong.

 

This can never be solved, there will always be a tank class that is being preferred over another because there are 4 classes competing for 2 slot.

 

But monk does need some attention, at least in colo/pvp.

Edited by ChopChopz, 31 August 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[VModSushi]

Would you be offended if I moved this to the Acolyte class section?

[4730121116050538127]

Played Monk since SEA Beta and until here. And played almost every other class in game except sorcs. Monk is and always will be my favorite class/main.

 

 

I'll try to cover not just the end game problem but also the problems I saw while leveling. I don't want to suggest anything that will require a massive change in skill tree because with the quality of developer this game has, It will most likely cause more harm than good.

 

 

Leveling/Grinding Problem:

 

25-30 is hell for new monks without pandora weapon and accesories. Coming from acolyte with good heals and easy time leveling it's not uncommon for new monks to be discouraged by sudden difficulty spike after class change(especially when facing the rock spider quest boss in izrude using few pieces of level 20-ish acolyte gear). This is probably one of the reason why level 50 monks are few. newer players quit becoming monk after realizing how awful soloing as monk is. 

 

suggestion:

As some already suggested giving self heal will be fantastic but as I previously said, I don't want to have an massive change in our skill tree. 

 

-One Idea is to give a life steal/heal component on Protection Ki .

Like when Protection Ki is active, certain percent of the damage done by monk heals the player and his whole party. This solves 2 of the monks main issue, lack of self heal and lack of raid/party utility. And it also makes sense, You'll use your defensive cooldown on damage heavy phase on raids, Having monk able to help the healer during those heavy aoe damage, even by tiny bit is godsend. It will somewhat gives sense to being a former acolyte, a class who can heal but this time your offensive capability heals your party and yourself.

 

. I am not particularly fan of party buffs, because buffs are boring. They don't give any exciting gameplay mechanic . 

 

PVP:

I have an unpopular opinion on this(but thats ok ) 

I only want the knockdown timing on GFist be fixed. I don't want another form of Stun/knockdown tacked in on monk skills. The stun should be applied on HIT not on the start of the long ass animation.

 

The main problem of monk and almost all melee class in general is Kiteablity, it's hard to stay near the ranged classes when you need to. IMO, even if an additional CC on monk's skill sounds nice, It will just create a bigger problem. If every other class has 2 or more form of CC, PVP will be hell. It's not fun being on the receiving end of massive chain of stuns, knockback, etc. Noone wants to be chain stunned to death.

 

suggestions:

- Give a party wide movement speed increase while Flee is active.<- self explanatory.

 

- Casting Fury Explosion Removes all Roots and slow(but not stun and knock down that will be overpowered) the bane of being melee is slow and roots. But the ability remove them sound too good, remember that monk needs 3 spirit sphere to cast FE, it's either he is already hitting someone or will be forced to use Summon spirit sphere. It's a good trade off imo.

 

- Third suggestion is when receiving PVP damage, Monk either has a chance to reset the cooldown of lighting walk or it could be, whenever monk takes damage, lightning walk cooldown is reduced by 1 or whatever seconds(either works).

 

 

Summary:

Those suggestion are meant to make monk a sturdy/tanky class who want to get into his target's face and blow them up with Guillotine fist. Nothing more nothing less

 

 

 

 

Edited by 4730121116050538127, 31 August 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[5391130503175245443]

Yes.   Monks REALLY DO NEED some change!

 

As of now, monks are FORCED to become tanks due to the present skills.  They should become viable as dpsers as well.  One thing that I really question is their ATK SPD.  What kind of a martial artist hits SO SLOW!?

 

Instead of buffing an already-decent dps class like ROGUES for no apparent reason (party buff is awesome, though).  buff MONKS!

 

I kept asking for justification for buffing ROGUES's DPS, but my thread got deleted both times without any notification or reason why they were deleted.  IT'S REALLY UPSETTING!  This makes it seem like there was no particular reason that is justifiable behind Rogues' DPS buff.

 

Instead of doing such thing as above, why not buff or redesign classes that ACTUALLY NEED buff/redesign?

 

I like the monk class, but I stopped playing it because the class design FORCES a player to TANK instead of having a choice between DPSing and tanking.

[Vanillarox]

As it stands there is little to no versatility in the Monk class. We have enough skill points to max almost every skill, save for a few. Our DPS is low, our burst damage has a ridiculous cooldown and we can't hold threat against more than three targets very well. We have very little dodge and crit too.

 

I get that there aren't as many Monks as there are Rogues and Assassins, but the way the Monk class is structured, it makes sense. Monks need a revamp. As it stands we are weak and are pretty much suited to just tank a boss and nothing more.

[Rukaroa]

Would you be offended if I moved this to the Acolyte class section?

Please keep it here. It needs to be front and center.

[Joeydemunnik]

 

The only changes BMs really need are a hit boost on tank gear or 100% hit rate on cruel bite at least

 

 

I feel like Cruel Bite is put in the game very late.. Or that there was a bit of miscomunication about it...

The description of the skills is something completely different.. I would understand that the heal would not occur if the attack was missed and it was a LEECH like the discription says.. But its not a leech... If it was a leech it would heal 50-150hp .. but it just heals 10% hp ( like 1.2k hp or whatever EVERY TIME) so I don't see why it could miss.. I agree on making the heal 100% but not the dmg.. 33% dmg unblockable dmg is really OP if you ask me..

 

I think that Brutal Strike "90%" dmg skill should be changed though ... I think it should be a single hit.. not two 45% hits that have halved chance of crit as opposed to a 90% hit ( two hits, less chance of both critting).. In colo i have much more succes of using cruel bites to KS then using brutal strike, When the brutal strike dmg registers the enemy is usually already dead...

 

And if you ask me .. Fury Strike is just as usueless as that recently buffed rogue skill.. Why isn't THAT getting buffed?

[DatMONKey]

Of course that doesn't hold true all the way... especially in AoD you'll have bosses with nasty AoEs and people will have parties labeled "shield fortress or gtfo". Monks don't have any skills that can save their party members from dying. Knights are the only tank class with this ability. BMs also have survival which heals the party for 10% hp but that still wont save anyone unless they're bleeding out after pricking their finger. Every tank class should be able to do this or else tanking goes from keeping the party alive to staying alive while hoping the boss doesnt throw any dirty looks at the dps. The only problem is that you can't just give everyone shield fortress because then we'd all slowly turn into knights and everyone BUT knights would be better knights than knights. It's pretty much the same with all the cons you listed since taking out all the cons would leave only pros and then monks or BMs would be op while anyone who made a war or knight would feel shafted getting stuck with a subpar tank. In my opinion it's not the tanks that need fixing but the things we're tanking. The ONLY thing knights have over the heads of other tanks is shield fortress, not because shield fortress is totally awesome but because we have dungeons where bosses throw unavoidable AOEs that require shield fortress for the weaker members to stay alive. It's cheap and total bs.

 

And to tie this up and keep it all relevant to the op... no, monks really don't need attention right now. It's the endgame content that needs attention. RM needs attention instead of just a "here's two extra minutes on his 'blow your asses to kingdom come' timer because **** you if you can keep from getting torn to bits for that long without paying out the ass (and **** you more if you can survive that long even WITH paying out the ass lol)"

 

From my personal experiences I have never been passed over as a Monk for a Knight or something for MT.

Even with AoD the higher def and HP of a monk plus the Defensive skills and ability to double up make them attractive as tanks. A Monk Knight combo would give you the best total defense for a Raid squad.

 

I agree 100% that endgame content needs some looking at and tweaking, but more so than that Monk needs AGI. If we had it you would see a real difference between some Monk builds.

 

Anyway I'm glad so many people are pitching in on this topic.

 

As for the Mod please keep this topic here. Aco board gets almost no traffic and this is a pretty big issue since Monk skills have never been fixed since the game was released.