415 replies to this topic

[Kadelia]

I am waiting to see how WoE handles on Yggdrasil, where there aren't any god items or MVP cards, and most people don't even have cranials.

edit:
@rayy

part of the reality is that iRO's god-item quantity is localized, so the balance of the skill may as well be localized too. kRO doesn't artificially create god items and roll seals at the rate we do, and doesn't cram 3 servers worth of god items into one, so their woe environment is different. On iRO it might need to be localized to have the skill be balanced with common god items in mind.

Edited by Jaye, 08 November 2010 - 10:05 AM.

[rayy]

If these skills are localized in the way that the people in this thread want it to be, then no one who does not have access to god items will want to roll a genetic, since they will basically take away their only skill that they use to level. The answer is not to nerf these skills prematurely. What I'm saying is that people need to level up and see what the real imbalances are when they are the same level as everyone else before crying nerfs every time they get killed by someone who is significantly higher level than they are.


As I am level 150 right now, I could probably list at least 10 skills which are more "overpowered" than the cart cannon that everyone claims it to be.

Edited by rayy, 09 November 2010 - 06:01 AM.

[Kadelia]

I don't think a 20% partially fixed cast time is unfair? It would just put Mjolnir and normal users on closer to equal footing. It wouldn't hinder people without Mjolnir from rolling one, like you're saying. Reviewing the exponential effect of INT on the damage might be worth looking into as well, so that again, casual players aren't affected, but those rolling with Sleipnirs and+20 INT foods at all times aren't at a god tier above "average" Genetic players.

Nobody is saying "just nerf cart canon". They're saying "nerf cart cannon AND those 10 other skills" so that we get to a point where people live longer than 0.2 seconds in PVP/WoE.

Edited by Jaye, 08 November 2010 - 10:54 AM.

[Skank]

at a .8 second fixed cast time why would i use cart canon over acid bomb? i could drop all dex from my build and just focus on int/str/vit, overinflate bomb damage and not even skill canon.

stop trying to fix things that aren't broken.

[Doddler]

at a .8 second fixed cast time why would i use cart canon over acid bomb?

Cause cart cannon is aoe?

A 0.6 second cast time would represent 20% of the total casting time of cart cannon, which is consistent with fixed cast time on most all skills. With sacrament, That would be 0.3 seconds, almost 3 shots a second. Would that be reasonable?

[rayy]

You are assuming that everyone has god items and can completely reduce their variable cast time, a genetic with no god items will have a 1.5-2sec cast on cart cannon

[Kadelia]

magic strings + sacrament in woe... you're going to have a decent cast time. Its just like pre-trans. Magic strings making a skill good instead of broken. My god.

[Skank]

so i have to use sleips hammer +20 dex food +10 dex food 100 int 100+ dex +20 int food +10 int food to achieve the same cast time as bomb but with less damage

yeah that is definitely going to happen. i encourage anyone in this thread to actually play a genetic without god items and tell me it's broken.

[Clogon]

so i have to use sleips hammer +20 dex food +10 dex food 100 int 100+ dex +20 int food +10 int food to achieve the same cast time as bomb but with less damage

yeah that is definitely going to happen. i encourage anyone in this thread to actually play a genetic without god items and tell me it's broken.

Why should Cart cannon be instant castable, and ASPD spammable while not being reduced by demi human, range, and element (Draco card and etc)) reduction not to mention elemental resistance (Raydric card) but has the potential to do the most damage? The biggest problem with this skill is its quadratic damage formula in relation to STR and INT and exponential DPS in relation to casting time. You can see the damage tests made by the korean player Eltan here. Leaving Cart cannon unchanged is very imbalanced as it creates a HUGE discrepancy between rich players and poor players. My suggestion would be to make the damage formula much more linear (STR+INT instead of STR*INT) then give it casting time/delay befitting of the new formula. (Edit: to semi quote Shank "Cart cannon without Hammer and dual megs is crap")

Blame the devs for having no Idea what balance is. It is unresonable and completely stupid that Cart Cannon has the exact same problem as Pre RE mechanics, Parabolic damage formula + Exponential DPS based on Casting time. Renewal was supposed to remove this kind of mechanic.

[Hitotsu]

so tired of this god item crap... seriously, even if 90% of the serious WOE guilds have god items up the wazoo, theres still a vast majoraty of non elites who will just have their characters screwed by some nerf that brings down effectiveness of a skill with god items.

its like the problem with GX's. Without EDP they are useless.

I dont want my character to suddenly turn into "you utterly suck even in pvm if you dont have god items, cause with god items, its too strong"

isnt there a way to reduce how much influence god items has on skills that turn out broken with their help?

so the skills will still be effective enouh to be fair WITHOUT the god items, but god items still give a reasonable boost, thus turning a good skill into a great skill, instead of turning a half-useless skill into a broken skill.

especially in our server where god items are common among elites, the gap in power should NOT be so great. especially since the way for an average joe to even hope to aquire a god item in the first place, is with an elites permission.

that doesnt promote fairness at all

Edited by Hitotsu, 08 November 2010 - 10:59 PM.

[Kadelia]

Hitotsu, that's what people have already said.

Adjusting the cast time so that it is (maybe) lower but has some fixed time unreducible by DEX basically means cast time is "short for high DEX non-elites and a little shorter for those with hammer", instead of "fast for non-elites and near instant or instant for those with hammer". The latter allowing exponentially higher DPS, which is unfair.

[rayy]

If these skills are localized in the way that the people in this thread want it to be, then no one who does not have access to god items will want to roll a genetic, since they will basically take away their only skill that they use to level. The answer is not to nerf these skills prematurely. What I'm saying is that people need to level up and see what the real imbalances are when they are the same level as everyone else before crying nerfs every time they get killed by someone who is significantly higher level than they are.


As I am level 150 right now, I could probably list at least 10 skills which are more "overpowered" than the cart cannon that everyone claims it to be.

this needs to be re-posted again for all these 110s/120s posting. Please stop using the same argument "I died in one hit to a completely stacked genetic cause I have 15k health" please nerf this skill. At 150, the damage is completely pottable. I can't even kill other 150s with cart cannon any more due to the infinite amount of ways that this skill can be negated.

Edited by rayy, 09 November 2010 - 06:06 AM.

[Kadelia]

I noticed its the people with Rune Knights and god items that say the OP'd stuff is balanced lmao.

Anyhow, big picture is not whether or not one skill is pottable, its whether or not this is the level of DPS that should be stacked with all the other shiz you're being hit with in WoE, and for a support character like Geneticist, the answer should be a resounding "no" for Acid Bomb and Cart Canon.

Edited by Jaye, 09 November 2010 - 07:27 AM.

[meoryou2]

I noticed its the people with Rune Knights and god items that say the OP'd stuff is balanced lmao.

Anyhow, big picture is not whether or not one skill is pottable, its whether or not this is the level of DPS that should be stacked with all the other shiz you're being hit with in WoE, and for a support character like Geneticist, the answer should be a resounding "no" for Acid Bomb and Cart Canon.

Who the hell said geneticists are SUPPORT? Because we can sacrifice some of our killing skills to throw bottles of crap? It's more than obvious enough that geneticists are meant to be the high end DPS "scary people" nowadays.... AoE acid demo anyone, cart cannon, cart tornado, explosive fruit, plant skills? 95% of our skills are OFFENSIVE. Or even some of the other effects of fire expansion? Different bombs that do different effects like make you sit. Hmm don't sound like a support class to me. Add in that we get for HP mods, I didn't even notice a difference in my max HP when I changed is how bad it is.

And if you are STILL dieing to CS ( complaining about L/RKs too ehh? ) you are STILL a nub. At 107+ You should be able to tank 2-3 CS knights AND a FS lexing you.... unless you are on a caster and THEY are supposed to be squishy.


And holy hell, you can't tank a bunch of people trying to kill you all at once? call the friggin press! WTF makes you think you should be able to stand there and tank a party on your character? 3+ VS 1 SHOULD have a very high chance of either killing you or at least hit locking you so you can't do anything.

[rayy]

150 genetic w/ 100 vit = 25k hp, 100 vit on any other class = 40k+ easily

[Kadelia]

Coating allies to not have broken armor = support
Throwing healing potions = support
Creating potions with +50% heal rate = support

Adjusting castime of people around you = support
Creating +20 stat foods = support

So, yes, support class. No less so than a class like Maestro/Wanderer. So let's see your class with something with something like Severe rainstorm instead of cart canon. Fixed cast, interruptible, not improved by Mjolnir, and 10k or less damage in WoE at 150, no shield, and lower HP mod than you currently have.

Oh, wait, that would be fair. Nevermind, you're not looking for fair.

Hmm, ok. Nobody should survive in WoE at all anymore, since all these attacks are AoE, and doing high DPS. You're like 50 vs 1 at all times in WoE since every 3rd job is doing AoE. Face it, the damage of these skills needs to be lower, since you're getting hit by too many things. Or stuff like cart canon and dragon breath, and gate of hell needs to stop being large AoEs.

150 genetic w/ 100 vit = 25k hp, 100 vit on any other class = 40k+ easily

ANY other class? Genetic does NOT have the lowest mod. Warlock and performers are lower. I don't have the HP table in front of me but I doubt you're even 3rd lowest. Ranger probably lower. Pretty sure mechanics and stuff are only like 30kish, too. I think only like Royal Guard, rune knight, and Guillotine Cross are over 40 commonly?

And if you are STILL dieing to CS ( complaining about L/RKs too ehh? ) you are STILL a nub. At 107+ You should be able to tank 2-3 CS knights AND a FS lexing you.... unless you are on a caster and THEY are supposed to be squishy.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Gloomy Shyness on a Cardo with Lex aeterna is like 40k+ in WoE, that will one shot 90% of the games classes, and that is just one rune knight. You'd think this would put the rune knight at 0 SP or cost an expensive consumable, have a 2 minute cooldown, or something. Nope, what 30 sp or something, 3 second cooldown, or so? Not OP? Yeah, OK. This is an RPG, not counterstrike. There shouldn't be alive 2 seconds, respawn, alive 2 seconds, respawn, etc.

Edited by Jaye, 09 November 2010 - 08:35 AM.

[rayy]

LOL???? You are describing a genetic who is a 100% pot build. This is two completely different builds. I guess every potter in the alchemist top 10 are overpowered as well. Damn, you really are delusional. Have you any idea what a genetic is? Or is the idea of a genetic based on the stuff you read on irowiki? Genetics, like biochemists, have ALAWYS been an offensive class. Perhaps you should try WoEing in a real guild to learn how things in WoE works before posting.

Throwing healing potions = support <---who uses this skill?????
Creating potions with +50% heal rate = support <---potting skill

Adjusting castime of people around you = support <-----what skill is this???? Mandragora Howl? This is an offensive skill.
Creating +20 stat foods = support <----potting skill

ANY class can be support or offensive build if you use your argument.

Arch Bishop-->support or battle
Wizard-->full vit/dex ganbantein/white imprison / march of abyss / disable build vs damage
Wanderer-->support (stun/buff) or offensive severe rainstorm
Maestro --> same ^^
Royal Guard -> support (battlechant / sacrifice) or pure offensive
Shadow Stalker --> melee spec/copy offensive abilities vs support (manhole, chaos, strip)
Rune Knight--> buffer / tank or offensive
Sura--> pure buffer or offensive

And, FYI, Sura, RG,Shadow stalker, rune knight, Ranger, GX all can hit 35k+ hp easily. (this is without the HP increase potion) Grats.

Seriously, you really should focus on leveling instead of wasting your time posting here about imbalances you know nothing about.

Edited by rayy, 09 November 2010 - 08:56 AM.

[Skank]

yeah a bio has always had the ability to support vs be offensive (aid condensed vs bomber vs pure potter) so i'm not sure why you keep saying genetics are a support class. if anything it's very clearly a step away from traditional support roles with the nerf of aid condensed and traditional potting %'s and the creation of new powerful offensive skills. your whole argument doesn't really make sense if your only rationalization involves "hey, genetics are support to support people"

[Kadelia]

Rayy, you essentially prove yourself wrong in your breakdown above. You list classes that are inferior to Geneticist at BOTH support and offense, and have lower HP than Geneticist. Either Genet is OP or several other classes are underpowered. And I don't think buffing everything lower up is the answer. Lowering the upper is always better.

Its obvious your ideology about class balance is piss-poor but its hardly the basis for continuing the discussion at present hand. Your stance is painfully clear that you like the upper echelons (which you play or by comparison to your OP'd class aren't as much of a threat) and have zero constructive help for the classes you do not play. i.e. you are biased in favor of balancing at a higher tier than a lower tier. The divide is there. Essentially, your logic stems from the idea that if every class is powerful, things will be fair, if not frustrating and panicked due to the short lifespan all players will have. This is a fallacy, however, as it is not a case where the game is fun. Only stressful and hyper-competitive. A lot of 3rd job skills really need to be toned down and scale more linearly so that they are not only comparable in strength, but the disparities prior to 150/50 aren't so prevalent. How you don't see the problems is nothing short of a miracle (or a stint of intentional blind ignorance)

[Miii]

Don't worry Jayed is trying too hard.

By the way you don't need to be a potter build to be support @__@ special pharmacy is 100% success, while cooking food may not but it has a high chance to success anyways.
You can be a potter and offensive at the same time =P

Edited by Miii, 09 November 2010 - 12:18 PM.

[meoryou2]

Rayy, you essentially prove yourself wrong in your breakdown above. You list classes that are inferior to Geneticist at BOTH support and offense, and have lower HP than Geneticist. Either Genet is OP or several other classes are underpowered. And I don't think buffing everything lower up is the answer. Lowering the upper is always better.

Its obvious your ideology about class balance is piss-poor but its hardly the basis for continuing the discussion at present hand. Your stance is painfully clear that you like the upper echelons (which you play or by comparison to your OP'd class aren't as much of a threat) and have zero constructive help for the classes you do not play. i.e. you are biased in favor of balancing at a higher tier than a lower tier. The divide is there. Essentially, your logic stems from the idea that if every class is powerful, things will be fair, if not frustrating and panicked due to the short lifespan all players will have. This is a fallacy, however, as it is not a case where the game is fun. Only stressful and hyper-competitive. A lot of 3rd job skills really need to be toned down and scale more linearly so that they are not only comparable in strength, but the disparities prior to 150/50 aren't so prevalent. How you don't see the problems is nothing short of a miracle (or a stint of intentional blind ignorance)

TL;DR but probably blah blah blah I suck at my classes and want everyone nerfed so I don't die all the time.

Jayed really should learn about stuff before flapping his / her lips.... just like "crits have always sucked and always will suck even in renewal" stance from the old forums HAHAHA now people are like " you have a LOLdagger sin... wtf?"

[Miii]

Hell plant should not be casted under the target, this need to be fixed. At least 2 cells away. x__x

Edited by Miii, 09 November 2010 - 04:33 PM.

[Kadelia]

^ Two can play at this game.

blah blah i am the type of person who sells a couch to get 2 megingjards in pvp and a grb/gr/dr and then i tell people they're bad if they can't beat me when me and my friends gang up on them 5 vs 1 also my girlfriend was just being a stupid-_- when she told me my-_- was small i totatlly am awesome as u can see by how i play online games and brag on them

meoryou2 really should learn about stuff before flapping his /her /its lips... just like "thara frog cards sucked and always will suck even in renewal" stance from the old forums HAHAHA now people are like " you wear shield ... wtf?"

[Prodigy]

Again, acid bomb already has fixed cast, that's enough, right?
Use hide clip like many of those players that hide my cannons / acid bombs

Sure, just give me 3 seconds to hide mmkay?

Anyways, I don't see why giving a 0.6s casting time to Cart Cannon is such a big deal to piss off all these Geneticists. It's still fast enough that you can cast it while under fire, but it balances it out so that it's not this Cart Cannon Machine Gun skill. Of course, the argument here is that this hurts Geneticists that aren't stacked with Sleips/Mjols/+20 foods/+10 foods. So how about this, lower the total casting time of Cart Cannon, but give it a 0.6s fixed casting time? The end result is, for those who are stacked, they're put at a 0.6s (0.3s with Sacra) casting time, while those who are not stacked will still get the same relative casting time as before.

[Kadelia]

Sure, just give me 3 seconds to hide mmkay?

Anyways, I don't see why giving a 0.6s casting time to Cart Cannon is such a big deal to piss off all these Geneticists. It's still fast enough that you can cast it while under fire, but it balances it out so that it's not this Cart Cannon Machine Gun skill. Of course, the argument here is that this hurts Geneticists that aren't stacked with Sleips/Mjols/+20 foods/+10 foods. So how about this, lower the total casting time of Cart Cannon, but give it a 0.6s fixed casting time? The end result is, for those who are stacked, they're put at a 0.6s (0.3s with Sacra) casting time, while those who are not stacked will still get the same relative casting time as before.

This is what we've already been suggesting but nobody wants to compromise, everyone likes their current tier of power or wants more.