415 replies to this topic

[rayy]

116, though I don't really see how level affects a skill that can't be reduced.

this just proves my point in how clueless you are to this class. You are level 116 crying about cart cannon and how it can't be reduced. Sorry to break this to you, but it CAN (bolded and enlarged to catch your attention) BE REDUCED. Ghostring carded armor reduces the damage by nearly half, defending aura by over 50%. With a simple ghostring armor, you will be taking 3-4k damage from a completely stacked genetic at level 150. With defending aura, you will be taking 2k. please just stop.


characters with god items are supposed to hurt. Pre-renewal, these god items were stacked on SINX/LKs and their damage is comparable to now (1 or 2 shotting people WITH or WITHOUT gear)

as with hell plant? think of this skill exactly like acid bomb pre renewal, highly spammable, single target damage spell

Edited by rayy, 04 November 2010 - 11:51 AM.

[Doddler]

If you think EVERYONE on server has god items, you are wrong, there are a few Mjolnirs on valk so don't complain about it, OH btw, I heard cannon is pottable, really!
1 second fixed cast is a lot. So I still don't agree.

Most skills have at least 20% of their cast time as fixed. 20% of cart cannon would be 0.8s. That's not really too long, twice a second with secrament is not slow by any means. 1 second is about on par with dragon's breath, which is 1s fixed 4s variable.

[Miii]

116, though I don't really see how level affects a skill that can't be reduced.

There was a low level RG that could tank / guard / hide / pot and didn't die to cannon once, how can't you? there must be something wrong then

[colo]

cart cannon is not op as everyone thinks, take away hammer and megs and cart cannon is not op at all. same for pvp/woe only reason why everyone thinks is OP is because everyone is low lvl and have low hp, but once ppl start lvling and getting increased hp mod, cart cannon can easily be out poted.

[Symphony3000]

Genetics are fine. The cost and rarity of the items needed for their skills more than balances the damage - compared to many melee classes that get instant-cast, high-damage, spammable skills.

Seriously, all this talk about skill nerfing is extremely bad for RO. We do NOT want to start going down that path with classes. Once it starts, it doesn't stop and people will be complaining about anything that kills them and expect it to be nerfed - just like World of Warcraft.

[Skank]

this just proves my point in how clueless you are to this class. You are level 116 crying about cart cannon and how it can't be reduced. Sorry to break this to you, but it CAN (bolded and enlarged to catch your attention) BE REDUCED. Ghostring carded armor reduces the damage by nearly half, defending aura by over 50%. With a simple ghostring armor, you will be taking 3-4k damage from a completely stacked genetic at level 150. With defending aura, you will be taking 2k. please just stop.


characters with god items are supposed to hurt. Pre-renewal, these god items were stacked on SINX/LKs and their damage is comparable to now (1 or 2 shotting people WITH or WITHOUT gear)

as with hell plant? think of this skill exactly like acid bomb pre renewal, highly spammable, single target damage spell

ralis is basing his entire argument on a single siege where his guild was dying to a genetic that outleveled all of his guild by at least 25 levels, was wearing four god items and full foods (including +20 int food). not a single time during that siege did he use defender or attempt to sac his guildmates, which would have reduced the "overpowered" damage to laughably outpottable amounts.

[Theoretical]

Indeed, genetics are fine. So many people are just ignoring the fact that Pneuma will save your ass in renewal.

[kogimon1]

orgetooth reduces cart cannon. true story

[Ralis]

ralis is basing his entire argument on a single siege where his guild was dying to a genetic that outleveled all of his guild by at least 25 levels, was wearing four god items and full foods (including +20 int food). not a single time during that siege did he use defender or attempt to sac his guildmates, which would have reduced the "overpowered" damage to laughably outpottable amounts.

Didn't have Defending Aura at the time.

And if you think Sac would have helped, you obviously don't know about the skill.

My entire argument is saying that it should not be possible for one Genetic, even at level 150 and with God Items, to solo entire guilds. I'm not saying to reduce the damage the skill does itself or get rid of it entirely, I'm saying that it needs to be reduced properly and it needs to have some of the DEX cast time changed to fixed so it's NOT possible to instacast, even with God Items. That was basically the entire point of Renewal, I thought.

Edited by Ralis, 04 November 2010 - 03:20 PM.

[Miii]

Im pretty sure a genetic can't solo an entire guild, there will always be good players that will survive it like rune knights and shadow chasers and kick genetic out instead, just go level, when you get to 150 you will forget about this.

[heyxsean]

Didn't have Defending Aura at the time.

And if you think Sac would have helped, you obviously don't know about the skill.

My entire argument is saying that it should not be possible for one Genetic, even at level 150 and with God Items, to solo entire guilds. I'm not saying to reduce the damage the skill does itself or get rid of it entirely, I'm saying that it needs to be reduced properly and it needs to have some of the DEX cast time changed to fixed so it's NOT possible to instacast, even with God Items. That was basically the entire point of Renewal, I thought.

Your guild is not made up of 150's so your argument is not valid...if it was and wiped by one 150 Genetic, then you can complain about op...

[Ralis]

Genetic was 130ish at the time.

WoE needs to be balanced around mid-levels and level differences, not everyone being 150.

[heyxsean]

Genetic was 130ish at the time.

WoE needs to be balanced around mid-levels and level differences, not everyone being 150.

Just get out of this thread lol

[KriztanAlizun]

I think the only real balance issues with Geneticist is that they have no fixed cast time on their skills. Their strongest skills, Cart Cannon, Hell's Plant, Thorn Wall, and Crazy Vines can all be instant cast with a mjolnir or an extreme build, and have no skill specific cooldown making them super spammable.

baby Daddy Imma need you to calm down.

Yes, they have no cool downs. Yes, that cooldown thing you said. Yes, they are strong.



YES, They all require an item to be used.

Cart Cannon > Numa
Acid Bomb > Numa
Hells Plant > Needs and item and wont kill you unless there are many of them on the ground.
Cart Tornado > ^_^ Please Nobody wanna use that shi unless it's pvm.
Howling of Mandragora ( not a good example, but it requires a item that I'm not sure can be made and drops from Drosera and Muscipular at a intolerably low rate. Will you see this often in woe? I think not.)
Throw Fruit > BICHHHHC CHCH PLEASSEEEEE (next)


All of them need items to use unlike CLASHING SPIRAL and HELLS GATE


Complaining about stuff that can do a lot of damage but are item dependent.


^_^ Please

[Ralis]

Item dependent on a server that thrives on bots isn't a very good argument. Maybe for Ymir and Ygg, but definitely not on Valk.

Bots will start farming these items if they're in high demand.

Hell, player bots will start farming them.

Sean; we play on different servers, so it's not surprising that you'd find that amusing. Ymir, as far as I have been able to tell, is very elitist about all of their max level chars.

Valk has new players joining every day, however, and expecting them to be 150 before they can do anything in WoE without being one shot by half of the skills in this game isn't very fair. Just look at all of the people already quitting because of how utterly discouraging it is. I barely have a drive to level right now because it's no longer a matter of 'I want to 150 but have fun doing it', but 'I have to 150 ASAP or I'm utterly worthless'.

[Ralis]

Anyhow, it keeps being pointed out to me by friends that this is quite utterly a waste of my time, and I agree. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. I'll leave it to the GMs to decide.

Back to writing, I suppose.

[rayy]

Item dependent on a server that thrives on bots isn't a very good argument. Maybe for Ymir and Ygg, but definitely not on Valk.

Bots will start farming these items if they're in high demand.

Hell, player bots will start farming them.

Sean; we play on different servers, so it's not surprising that you'd find that amusing. Ymir, as far as I have been able to tell, is very elitist about all of their max level chars.

Valk has new players joining every day, however, and expecting them to be 150 before they can do anything in WoE without being one shot by half of the skills in this game isn't very fair. Just look at all of the people already quitting because of how utterly discouraging it is. I barely have a drive to level right now because it's no longer a matter of 'I want to 150 but have fun doing it', but 'I have to 150 ASAP or I'm utterly worthless'.

just stop you obviously dont read any posts properly

[Skank]

you're outgeared, outleveled, outconsumabled and outplayed - stop trying to blame the class, if i was a shura i would be wrecking your guild just as fast.

[Clogon]

Hells Plant > Needs and item and wont kill you unless there are many of them on the ground.
Howling of Mandragora ( not a good example, but it requires a item that I'm not sure can be made and drops from Drosera and Muscipular at a intolerably low rate. Will you see this often in woe? I think not.)

The problem I have with Hell's plant isn't the damage but:

1) No fixed casting time (can be instantly casted)
2) Can be placed directly under the target
3) Stuns for 20 unreducable seconds in an AoE at high chance. More testing is required but Shank said it was able to stun even people who had over 100 vit at very high chance.


Howling:
How is an item with a 2% chance to drop (3% on premium) from a 105 monster that can be bottedhunted by perma lvl 99 chars be considered RARE?


Another skill I have a problem with is Crazy Weed but I just can't put my hands on what exactly that makes me this this skill is too strong.
Pros:
No fixed casting,
high damage,
ranged Melee damage (it is melee damage but at range, so it bypasses Range reductions like DA)
Ganbantein effect

Cons:
The item is quite rare (Requires 10 pickly fruits for 4~6 uses)
requires a lot of skill points (High tier skill)
deals damage randomly and unreliably (it is a meteor storm with random number of Meteors)

I guess I just don't like the idea of an instant cast Ganbantein in a 13x13 AoE that also deals damage as a bonus.


Onto cart cannon:
Yes this skill is reducable by a mini boss cards and skills. But why should this skill be so much stronger than any other ranged AoE skill aside from DBreath and Crazy Weed both still having fixed casting time, delay and/or cooldown? And can't you guys see the problem with this skill in PVM? Also you do know that you have Ghost cannon balls to increase your damage against GR players right?

Arrow Storm:
Has fixed casting time and cooldown, reducable by Thara+etc.

Severe Rain storm:
deals damage over 3 seconds, has fixed casting time, after cast delay and cooldown.

Arm cannon:
Requires Mado, has after cast delay, reducable by Thara+etc.


Why should Cart cannon be instant castable, and ASPD spammable while not being reduced by demi human, range, and element (Draco card and etc)) reduction not to mention elemental resistance (Raydric card) but has the potential to do the most damage? The biggest problem with this skill is its quadratic damage formula in relation to STR and INT and exponential DPS in relation to casting time. You can see the damage tests made by the korean player Eltan here. Leaving Cart cannon unchanged is very imbalanced as it creates a HUGE discrepancy between rich players and poor players. My suggestion would be to make the damage formula much more linear (STR+INT instead of STR*INT) then give it casting time/delay befitting of the new formula. (Edit: to semi quote Shank "Cart cannon without Hammer and dual megs is crap")


Also Bugs:
Cart is reduced and misses to Ghost monsters even if it can be endowed with element to do bonus damage making the Ghost Cannon Ball less useful against ghost1 monsters and useless against Ghost2 or higher. Arm cannon from Mechanic suffers the same bug.

Demonic Fire does not damage other players in PVP.

Axe Mastery should be renamed Axe and Sword mastery because it was buffed to affect swords in Renewal.

Edited by Clogon, 06 November 2010 - 08:20 AM.

[Miii]

Cart cannon doesn't need to be changed, it is okay how it is right now. Yes you can hide it, pneuma it, guard it and what not. People should stop crying about this skill already, if it gets nerfed it will suck and genetics will hate it for sure =__=

You can't cast hell plant under the target as far as I know @__@
I could agree that the stun could be reduced by vit ^^;

Howling is okay too, the item is expensive enough (100k or 200k) for a skill that dures 1 minute, and there's no sense on putting fixed cast on it sience you will get affected by it anyways. Also this skill has a long delay.

Crazy weed doesn't need to get changed, the items to make the seed are hard enough to get =__= this skill is like casting a ME on another ME, but does damage too.
I can agree to put 1 second fixed cast at least, not higher.


Honestly if we are going to nerf this class there's no point of playing it.

[Kitten]

I very much agree that being out leveled has everything to do with the Genetic being seemingly "over powered". If you're thirty classes under most any class, their skills are going to hurt and you'll probably have a difficult time killing them. Simple. This isn't broken mechanics, this is how the game should be functioning.

I think you're all just used to the Alchemist class branch being sort of a one trick pony. "Oh, Bombs? I know how to deal with those." Now that they have something new it's suddenly completely pandemonium.

A significant amount of time needs to pass before a nerf of any sort should even be considered. Aside from a very short fixed cast time (very short being the main point here - there's already enough limitations in place), the class seems to be working just fine.


And don't turn this into a Valk/Premium WoE item supply argument. The condition of the Valk server shouldn't be a deciding factor in how any class gets balanced. Be reasonable.

[Skank]

i was wrong about hell plant, it's stun is resistable.

oh and cart canon is laughably outpottable without a hammer/belts. in fact rks should still be able to outpot it.

Edited by Skank, 07 November 2010 - 11:23 PM.

[rayy]

i love how every argument about cart cannon revolves around a genetic who had god items and killed them in woe when they were 30+ levels higher than them. As for this "20 second stun on hells plant"; the only reason you get stunned for 20 seconds is...(wait for it) BECAUSE YOU ARE 30 LEVELS BELOW THAT GENETIC. When you are within 10 levels of the user, the plant will not even stun anymore (unless you build your woe characters around 1 vit)

- instant cast cannot be achieved without god items
- a god item-less character does ~10k or less cart cannons (with the best in slot gears)

Edited by rayy, 08 November 2010 - 06:00 AM.

[Kadelia]

Just FYI, after skimming this thread;
If the answer to balancing a skill is an extremely rare card like Ghostring, or an extremely situational support skill like defending aura, then no, its not balanced. Those skills (and card) are supposed to be a bonus to hinder and defend, not to drag things down to PAR.

There is a huge disparity between the usefulness of some classes in renewal. just about every class has supportive skills now, but some have offensive skills, max HP, DEF, etc, that are worlds apart from other classes. I think we really need to agree as a community where the middle ground is for how much damage a 3rd job should be doing, because everyone is trying to justify their own DPS and its not working. This isn't counterstrike, people are supposed to live longer than 0.3 seconds in a pvp room. AoE damage should be lower to compensate for its multi-enemy effect. This is game-design 101, but Gravity seems to have missed that course. Classes good at tanking should be worse at offense, this is also a lesson missed in course 101. There is no reason that a Geneticist should have better support AND offensive potential than a mechanic. NONE. There is no reason Rune Knight should have top tier HP, DEF, and offense, and still be able to bolster allies. That is friggen god-tier, people. While we have classes with worst HP, DEF, offense, and average/good support skills (such as wanderer), that is ridiculous. There is no sense of balance there. Every class needs to be viable in a battle, no one class should feel like "an hero", and no one class should feel like a glass nerf ball launcher. Everyone needs to be equal but different, like team fortress or whatever. its not impossible, it just takes people agreeing on what the acceptable level of DPS is for classes, and accepting the nerf if their class is above it.

[rayy]

Don't forget that every argument in this thread is about level 110s fighting level 150s. I have yet to see any one of these posters here crying nerf even try to imagine what the situation would be in a level 150 vs level 150 battle.

Regarding the ghostring card reducing damage - this card was mentioned to reduce the damage of genetics stacked with every god item in the game. Has anyone in this thread ever gotten hit by a cart cannon by a regular non-stacked genetic? I think it's safe to say the answer is no.

Edited by rayy, 08 November 2010 - 09:56 AM.