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#26 Theoretical

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:50 PM

+1 to FCP blocking any de-equipping effects.
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#27 Skank

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:16 PM

-1 to fcp blocking deequipping effects, -1 to giving manhole a long reuse delay (most other classes can keep players in lockdown but not a disabling class?), unsure on shadow form.

Edited by Skank, 04 November 2010 - 03:17 PM.

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#28 Pred

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:42 PM

Weapon and Shield gets divested for 20 seconds... Seriously? Just re-equip it. If you can't remember to requip your gear after it's divested... you're doing it wrong.

If Manhole gets nerfed, then nerf Warg Bite and all the other disabling skills as well.

Shadow Form doesn't need a nerf, if one Shadow Chaser wipes your guild with Shadow Form, your guild needs to stop being so bad and paying attention.

The only nerf brought up so far that really needs to be made is Gloomy. It's ridiculous that Gloomy permanently removes your mount until you go back to pront and buy a new one. Either put the mount back after the duration, or put the ability to buy a new mount in the WoE Kafras. Manhole could use a nerf as well, but if you're going to nerf Manhole, nerf the other disabling skills as well.
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#29 sgvince

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:24 PM

didnt bother reading whats already in here but here we go

im not gonna list whats wrong, im just gonna list what it should be. just add ur own stuff to it

SHADOW FORMATION - cancels after 3 hits instead of 9 or even better, 1. ONLY WORKS AGAINST PLAYERS i mean, its SUPPOSED TO, yet it doesn't. its impossible to get rid of the chasers if they shadow form cades and stones if you leave them alone, theyll fire trap the cades and take it down in less than 10 seconds. might i also add you cant dispell it when theyre linked? very overpowered. TRIPLE the SP upkeep. stealth gets a brutal sp upkeep in woe. i dont see why shadow form takes very little sp. everybody agrees that it should have a nasty cooldown. 10 seconds AFTER it gets cancelled? a shadow chaser can literally never die in woe as long as they keep spamming shadow form

DEADLY INFECT - you should not be able to spread third class ailments. this makes chasers very brutal in woe and completely replaces classes that has the original de-buff. for example, deadly infect using the guillotine cross poisons. ive not see very many GX that actually uses this skill. but now you have a chaser flying kicking into your group and using deadly infect with GX's magic mushroom. theyre pretty much the GX class now. but even better. again, should not be able to spread 3rd class ailments. theres only 2 skills that cures GX poisons and no potions.

MANHOLE - simple enough, disable it in towns. its detrimental to a guild rush when you have enemy chasers manholing outside the castle preventing the important people from rushing inside the castle. no counter for this atm

MASQUERADE GLOOMY - coat should prevent this as well. taking your peco off is brutal in woe. also decrease the chance of it succeeding and add cooldown. maybe 10 seconds? no counter for it atm.

MASQUERADE IGNORANCE - very overpowered in woe. it renders everybody useless. as off right now, there is no counter to this. combined with flying kick, you can render 15 people useless in less than 10 seconds. lower sucess chance and add nasty cooldown.

MASQUERADE WEAKNESS - pierces through coat.. why? and it takes off your important crap too. weapon and shield

Edited by sgvince, 04 November 2010 - 06:27 PM.

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#30 yoon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:07 PM

didnt bother reading whats already in here but here we go

im not gonna list whats wrong, im just gonna list what it should be. just add ur own stuff to it

SHADOW FORMATION - cancels after 3 hits instead of 9 or even better, 1. ONLY WORKS AGAINST PLAYERS i mean, its SUPPOSED TO, yet it doesn't. its impossible to get rid of the chasers if they shadow form cades and stones if you leave them alone, theyll fire trap the cades and take it down in less than 10 seconds. might i also add you cant dispell it when theyre linked? very overpowered. TRIPLE the SP upkeep. stealth gets a brutal sp upkeep in woe. i dont see why shadow form takes very little sp. everybody agrees that it should have a nasty cooldown. 10 seconds AFTER it gets cancelled? a shadow chaser can literally never die in woe as long as they keep spamming shadow form

DEADLY INFECT - you should not be able to spread third class ailments. this makes chasers very brutal in woe and completely replaces classes that has the original de-buff. for example, deadly infect using the guillotine cross poisons. ive not see very many GX that actually uses this skill. but now you have a chaser flying kicking into your group and using deadly infect with GX's magic mushroom. theyre pretty much the GX class now. but even better. again, should not be able to spread 3rd class ailments. theres only 2 skills that cures GX poisons and no potions.

MANHOLE - simple enough, disable it in towns. its detrimental to a guild rush when you have enemy chasers manholing outside the castle preventing the important people from rushing inside the castle. no counter for this atm

MASQUERADE GLOOMY - coat should prevent this as well. taking your peco off is brutal in woe. also decrease the chance of it succeeding and add cooldown. maybe 10 seconds? no counter for it atm.

MASQUERADE IGNORANCE - very overpowered in woe. it renders everybody useless. as off right now, there is no counter to this. combined with flying kick, you can render 15 people useless in less than 10 seconds. lower sucess chance and add nasty cooldown.

MASQUERADE WEAKNESS - pierces through coat.. why? and it takes off your important crap too. weapon and shield


Wrong
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#31 Kokotewa

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:21 PM

didnt bother reading whats already in here but here we go

im not gonna list whats wrong, im just gonna list what it should be. just add ur own stuff to it

SHADOW FORMATION - cancels after 3 hits instead of 9 or even better, 1. ONLY WORKS AGAINST PLAYERS i mean, its SUPPOSED TO, yet it doesn't. its impossible to get rid of the chasers if they shadow form cades and stones if you leave them alone, theyll fire trap the cades and take it down in less than 10 seconds. might i also add you cant dispell it when theyre linked? very overpowered. TRIPLE the SP upkeep. stealth gets a brutal sp upkeep in woe. i dont see why shadow form takes very little sp. everybody agrees that it should have a nasty cooldown. 10 seconds AFTER it gets cancelled? a shadow chaser can literally never die in woe as long as they keep spamming shadow form

DEADLY INFECT - you should not be able to spread third class ailments. this makes chasers very brutal in woe and completely replaces classes that has the original de-buff. for example, deadly infect using the guillotine cross poisons. ive not see very many GX that actually uses this skill. but now you have a chaser flying kicking into your group and using deadly infect with GX's magic mushroom. theyre pretty much the GX class now. but even better. again, should not be able to spread 3rd class ailments. theres only 2 skills that cures GX poisons and no potions.

MANHOLE - simple enough, disable it in towns. its detrimental to a guild rush when you have enemy chasers manholing outside the castle preventing the important people from rushing inside the castle. no counter for this atm

MASQUERADE GLOOMY - coat should prevent this as well. taking your peco off is brutal in woe. also decrease the chance of it succeeding and add cooldown. maybe 10 seconds? no counter for it atm.

MASQUERADE IGNORANCE - very overpowered in woe. it renders everybody useless. as off right now, there is no counter to this. combined with flying kick, you can render 15 people useless in less than 10 seconds. lower sucess chance and add nasty cooldown.

MASQUERADE WEAKNESS - pierces through coat.. why? and it takes off your important crap too. weapon and shield

Haha wow, all I can say to this really.
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#32 sgvince

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:36 AM

Haha wow, all I can say to this really.


tell me why its wrong? have u guys woe'd against a shadow chaser of very high caliber?
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#33 Clogon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:31 AM

tell me why its wrong? have u guys woe'd against a shadow chaser of very high caliber?


SC are MEANT to be annoying! What is the point of a silence that can be removed by a simple green potion? Have you faced a Genetic of high caliber? Their debuffs are way more annoying!

Anyways Bugs:
Invisibility will continue to drain SP and block skill/item use even if the Chaser is revealed. This only stops when the Chaser has no SP left.
Maelstorm will not work unless the Chaser is in the AoE of his Maelstorm. If this is intended, there is no mention of this in the skill description.

Balance complaint:
Triangle Shot is useless, the damage and effect does not match its cost. This skill costs 17 Rogue/Stalker skill points to get and 10 Chaser points to maximize. But it is not rewarding at all. The damage is negligible even at max level and 100+ AGI for a 2 second casting time and 0.5s after cast delay skill. Spamming Double Strafe will yield much more reward over the cost of Triangle Shot. Why spend up to 27 points on a skill that is not even better its the prerequisite?

Edit:
Also the only fix to Man Hole that is needed is to not allow it to be placed under players like Ankle Snare and Electric Shocker and prevent it from being used in front of WoE castle entrances to block people from entering.

DS:
190%*2
Has 10+ Vulture Eye range, no casting time, 0.1s after cast delay, costs 12 SP and 1 arrow and is ASPD spammable.

Triangle Shot from Chaser:
250%*b.lvl/100+0.4*(1+j.lvl/100)*AGI*(s.lvl-1) = 915% at 150/50 and 100 AGI.
It has 11 cell range, 2s casting time, 0.5s after cast delay and costs 40 SP and 3 Arrows. Damage is DELAYED by 0.5s

As you can see DS out ranges Triangle Shot, costs less in skill points and SP (12*3=36<40) but yields more DPS (190%*2*3=1140>915) and instant damage instead of delayed. Yes Triangle Shot has an 11% chance to knock back but does this cover the casting time, after cast delay, low damage, delayed damage and massive skill point cost?

Edit2:
Also forgot that Chaos Panic should also be blocked infront of Castles as it also prevents players from entering.

Edited by Clogon, 05 November 2010 - 05:36 AM.

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#34 Randfeon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:51 AM

As far as I know, Manhole is not supposed to be castable under someone - I believe the closest you can get it to a player is on one cell adjacent to them, which sucks them in because Manhole is that awesome. It's supposed to be targeted at the ground, too.

It's sad to know that Triangle Shot still sucks, by the way.
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#35 Clogon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:57 AM

As far as I know, Manhole is not supposed to be castable under someone - I believe the closest you can get it to a player is on one cell adjacent to them, which sucks them in because Manhole is that awesome. It's supposed to be targeted at the ground, too.


You are correct. But even if it cannot be placed directly under the target, because of its 3x3 Activation range, this skill effectively has this property. That is why status traps can only be placed up to 2 cells away from enemies.
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#36 Scott

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:13 AM

Everyone who's saying to change things in here are basically asking to remove what makes the class a Shadow Chaser.

I think you'd be easily able to make Gloomy give your mount back, in the last second of the debuff, it could run a class check, and then use the same script NPCs use to give you your classes mount back.

Shadow Form is fine.

Full Checmical Protection already destroyed the effectiveness of Rogues, and majorly debilitated the effectiveness of Stalkers, making it block out Shadow Chasers as well makes it one hell of a powerful second class skill. I don't think it should happen, and I'm tired of it having that power over the Rogue classes.

Manhole shouldn't work on players unless it's PVP or WoE. That way, it could still work on regular enemies.

And while it's not really in this board, I think something should be done about the hit and flee required for monsters below 100. It just seems really odd.

Edited by Scott, 05 November 2010 - 07:17 AM.

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#37 Andini

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:22 AM

pretty much people that cannot figure out how to counter a shadow chaser are naming every skill they are annoyed at overpowered. a rogue class' job is to be annoying and disable. honestly, if you cant figure out what to do (and there are ways to make shadow chasers pretty useless), then you deserve what you get. but if you still cant figure it out, tell your shadow chasers to step it up and that would be one way.

Edited by Andini, 05 November 2010 - 07:27 AM.

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#38 sgvince

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:36 AM

shadow chasers are yes-- supossed to be annoying but they are not meant to render a whole guild useless in less than 20 seconds. even with my proposed nerfs, they would still be annoying. they are just game breaking atm, and thats now theyre supposed to be. you can literally stomp over anybody if your guild is nothing but shadow chasers.
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#39 sgvince

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:38 AM

Everyone who's saying to change things in here are basically asking to remove what makes the class a Shadow Chaser.

I think you'd be easily able to make Gloomy give your mount back, in the last second of the debuff, it could run a class check, and then use the same script NPCs use to give you your classes mount back.

Shadow Form is fine.

Full Checmical Protection already destroyed the effectiveness of Rogues, and majorly debilitated the effectiveness of Stalkers, making it block out Shadow Chasers as well makes it one hell of a powerful second class skill. I don't think it should happen, and I'm tired of it having that power over the Rogue classes.

Manhole shouldn't work on players unless it's PVP or WoE. That way, it could still work on regular enemies.

And while it's not really in this board, I think something should be done about the hit and flee required for monsters below 100. It just seems really odd.


what servers do u guys play? do u have bad shadow chasers? once a shadow chaser shadow forms the barricades and stones its game over. you cant dispell shadow form, and u cant kill the shadow chaser. what u gonna do? leave it alone? they'll fire trap the stone or cade and break it in 10 seconds.
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#40 Andini

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:45 AM

what servers do u guys play? do u have bad shadow chasers? once a shadow chaser shadow forms the barricades and stones its game over. you cant dispell shadow form, and u cant kill the shadow chaser. what u gonna do? leave it alone? they'll fire trap the stone or cade and break it in 10 seconds.


if a shadow chaser shadow forms the barricade, how's it supposed to fire trap?
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#41 Amor

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:59 AM

I don't agree that shadow form should be 1 hit, that's pretty terrible. I do think the skill should have a short cast time though and maybe some way to make it more visible when you have effects off.
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#42 Ramen

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:00 AM

Glad to see this is up. I have a few VERY simple suggestions that should be easy fixes for a lot of the problems people are experiencing with Manhole. I'll look at some of the other skills as well.


MANHOLE
Manhole's area of effect is something like this:

OOOOO
OHHHO
OHHHO
OHHHO
OOOOO

O=Non effected cell H=Cell that will trap you H=Location Manhole was casted.

Currently, you can't (from what I can tell) place a manhole on the exact same cell a person is standing on, however, you can place it directly next to them, and they'll be sucked in, due to the area of effect. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I believe it is 100% intended.

The problem however is this:

OOOOOOOO
OHHHHHHO
OHHHHHHO
OHHHHHHO
OOOOOOOO

Currently, manholes can be laid directly next to each other, which enables this infinite loop of keeping people trapped. A very simple fix to this problem is to give Manhole a pneuma-esque restriction.

OOOOOOOOOO
OHHHOOHHHO
OHHHOOHHHO
OHHHOOHHHO
OOOOOOOOOO

TRIANGLE SHOT

I pretty much agree with Clogon on this one.

SHADOW FORM

I really don't see any problems with the skill itself. Pred pointed out plenty of easy ways to deal with it as an attacker. I've heard that you can shadow form Barricades and Guardian Stones (Emps?) and if that's the case, it needs to be fixed. Also, there needs to be a comprehensive skill check against Shadow Form. As it stands, there are skills that, based on the skill description, are ignoring Shadow Form. The only one that I've come across so far is Thorn Trap. The skill description says that it redirects all damage except for what is termed as divine damage. This includes Gloria Domini, and damage that has already been reflected or redirected once.

INVISIBILITY

As Clogon mentioned, it's bugged.

DIMENSION DOOR

Just curious as to the point or usefulness of this skill. I'd like to get feint bomb, and it feels like a complete waste to have to max this skill in order to get it. I'm pretty sure that no matter the situation, either using a tele clip or a fly wing is going to be better than using dimension door. Even a giant fly wing is better than the dimension door. Can anyone think of a reason for this skill's existence other than to waste skill points?

I remember someone suggesting a fix for it a while back, that I really like. Essentially enable it to lay two, and only two at a time on a map per SC. These Dimension Doors would then be "connected', as in, you walk in one Dimension Door, you come out of the second one. I have no idea why they didn't program it to work this way in the first place, because it would be a heck of a lot better. >_>

Edited by Ramen, 05 November 2010 - 08:06 AM.

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#43 Prodigy

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:02 AM

My only two concerns are Shadow Form and Manhole.

First off, Manhole:
Unlike other trap skills, you cannot do anything while inside Manhole, and you can't be damaged. This means that there is no way of escape or retalation when Manholed, unlike Fiberlock or Ankle Snare where you can still kill the people around you. On Valk Server, Doddler mentioned how they got a recaller trapped for [b]SEVEN[/]b minutes. Without even the ability to bwing out, that's kinda broken isnt it? Making Manhole as Clogon suggested would fix this problem since basically, a person who is not walking cannot be Manholed which would also prevent them from re-Manholing Manholed targets.

Next, Shadow Form:
It's too "cheap" a skill for what it does. If casted under a heavy precast, the Shadow Chaser is guaranteed a sure kill. Sure a Shadow Chaser can't do anything while under SF, but at the same time, his enemies will think twice about using AoE skills which can be a big deal when being rushed by large groups. Besides, a smart SC won't stay in SF forever (as many people seem to convey - that SCs are essentially useless when under SF and no one is hitting him). A smart SC would go back and forth between using SF, and annoying people in many other ways. Since it's instant cast, I've seen good Shadow Chasers run in, spam Masquerades, Fire Traps, Deadly Infect, etc. on people, and at the last second, SF right when he is about to get hit (note: casting times are dead give aways on when to SF). Since we know that his instant cast SF can counter us as soon as we begin casting, we would just stop hitting him all together. This means that whether SF is active or not, hitting Shadow Chasers in any way, shape or form are BAD. The point I'm getting here is, give SF either a casting time or a reuse delay.
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#44 Poko4Sho

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 09:09 AM

DEADLY INFECT - you should not be able to spread third class ailments. this makes chasers very brutal in woe and completely replaces classes that has the original de-buff. for example, deadly infect using the guillotine cross poisons. ive not see very many GX that actually uses this skill. but now you have a chaser flying kicking into your group and using deadly infect with GX's magic mushroom. theyre pretty much the GX class now. but even better. again, should not be able to spread 3rd class ailments. theres only 2 skills that cures GX poisons and no potions.


:P I figured since a GX's only good job during war is laying out his signature poisons, they would be useful. I guess I was wrong, IMO that should be looked into.
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#45 CocaCola

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 09:20 AM

what servers do u guys play? do u have bad shadow chasers? once a shadow chaser shadow forms the barricades and stones its game over. you cant dispell shadow form, and u cant kill the shadow chaser. what u gonna do? leave it alone? they'll fire trap the stone or cade and break it in 10 seconds.

You do realize they cant cast anything while shadowed right...


Just put a re use delay on SF and theyll be fine. OR just make the lines more visible so you can dispel the target.

Also counter to SF is SF in itself. Have an out of guild SC shadow form a shadow former and problem solved. Syphon a chaser, no upkeep cant pot while shadowed(afaik) kill off a person and kill them faster than they can pot/re cast. Its not THAT OP it just takes good communication and cordination to deal with a good chaser.

Edited by CocaCola, 05 November 2010 - 09:21 AM.

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#46 Ramen

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 11:43 AM

You do realize they cant cast anything while shadowed right...


Just put a re use delay on SF and theyll be fine. OR just make the lines more visible so you can dispel the target.

Also counter to SF is SF in itself. Have an out of guild SC shadow form a shadow former and problem solved. Syphon a chaser, no upkeep cant pot while shadowed(afaik) kill off a person and kill them faster than they can pot/re cast. Its not THAT OP it just takes good communication and cordination to deal with a good chaser.



You can't dispel shadow form. Doesn't matter if you use it on the target or the SC, the skill CANNOT be dispelled.
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#47 CocaCola

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:48 PM

Are you sure? It works for us
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#48 Ramen

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:16 PM

Are you sure? It works for us



If it does, then it is a bug, and needs to be corrected. It's that or kRO, jRO, pRO, and cRO all have Shadow Form that is not working correctly, and somehow, I don't think that's the case.
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#49 CocaCola

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:21 PM

Well it works, try it
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#50 DemiGod

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:35 PM

Being able to shadow form someone in manhole needs removing, and BOTH skills need a cool down. Being able to CC one person indefinitely is a bit much. I was just manhole spammed for 5 minutes, a ranger came in and layed 10 landmines, the chaser shadow formed me while I'm MANHOLED and cannot do anything, walks through the landmines and instantly kills me. I have no problem with masquerade.. its just their range is a bit long, I expected something that was so devastating to have a shorter range, but when I get dismounted from 5 - 6 cells away... come on.
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