296 replies to this topic

[Bendersmom]

But you can't make changes to the game that will effect everyone based on one scenario.  Otherwise you could argue that a lot of changes need to be made to the game based on the lone cleric vs 2+ clerics in CD, the dungeon without good fighters, etc..  The changes to purify were way too severe when you take into account how many CDs have only one cleric, so it was modified some.  Now it is a happy compromise, not too OP and yet still somewhat helpful for that case scenario.  The same thing has to be done with the buff changes. And right now, even if you lower the cleric buffs, if one team has 1+ clerics and the other has none, they still will be at a disadvantage and most will leave or not fight.  Changing the buffs won't change the players.  Those players have had buff pots available to them for a long time and still don't use them.  

 

I am not against changing things in general, but I would like for them to make sense.  And to me this doesn't make sense really and I definitely don't want the usefulness of the cleric to be diminished.  As it is now it is not as much fun for me to play cleric as it once was but it is still a good class to play.

[angeltje]

wut again cleric changed, this makes it hard to stay fs cleric for me, soon they dont need us anymore

[Graziano]

Spoiler

Game Arena

• Reduced the group contribution value for kills. What was happening was kills were overshadowing other participation factors and hurting the teamwork encouragement and efforts vs rewards.
• Organized the Scoreboard to display by default, more pertinent data that affected point gains and player participation.

Weapon Balance
Reviewing some of the cases of Katars, they are still hitting pretty hard. With their attack speed so potentially high, I need to add some counterbalance to it. Rather than take it out on them through skill balances, I don't want to make it seem like the skills are less valuable than some of the others, so I'm taking it directly to the weapon class itself.

• Reduced Katar Accuracy base by 10%
• Reduced Katar Attack Power base by 10%

Soldier
Staminal Assist

• Stat influential base MaxHP bonus increased to 30/60/90/120/150, from 25/50/75/100/125

Overhead Attack

• Increased Dodge Down base to 20/40/60/80, from 10/15/20/25/30

Weapon Toss

• Increased Movement Speed Down base to 20/40/60/80, from 10/15/20/25/30

Axe Storm

• Increased cast speed.

Champion
Soul Wreck

• Reduced chance of Silence to 80%, from 100%.

Champion Hit

• Increased Critical Down base to 30/60/90/120/150, from 10/15/20/25/30
• Increased cooldown to 7 seconds, from 6.
• Critical Down effect reduced to 5 seconds, from 20.

Champion Strike

• Increased cast speed.
• Now converts 20%/40%/60%/80%/100% of damage to healing yourself.
• Also applies to unique version as well.

Final Strike

• Increased cast speed significantly.
• Added Bleed effect for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds.

Weapon Launcher

• Increased cast speed.

Axe Wrath

• Increased cast speed significantly.
• Added Burn effect dealing 1000/1500/1500/1800/2000 damage over time.

Berserk

• Stun & Sleep resistance reduced to 50%, from 100% (perfect immunity was more powerful than anticipated)

Hawker
Critical Focus (Formerly "Bow Focus")

• Critical Focus can now be cast as a party effect and remains stack-able with other critical buffs.

Muse
The reduction to the influential values of buffs, offsets a bit of the Charm bonus impact that was previously not well included or anticipated when considering the full scope of impact from player build. Rather than scale back the effects of Charm or Primary Stats from a class and equally affect all skills, we've focused solely on the skills that are considered to be only useful from the Cleric Source. This offset, depending on builds, should better equalize and put class buffs at a competitive rate to Clerics.

Wallop Charm/Chant

• Stat influential base Attack Power bonus reduced to 2/4/6/8/10, from 5/10/15/20/25

Precision Charm/Chant

• Stat influential base Accuracy bonus reduced to 3/6/9/12/15, from 5/10/15/20/25

Cleric
Battle Charm/Chant

• Stat influential base Attack Speed bonus reduced to 0.5%/1.0%/1.5%/2.0%/2.5%, from 1.5%/3%/4.5%/6%/7.5%

Hustle Charm/Chant

• Stat influential base Movement Speed bonus reduced to 3/6/9/12/15, from 10/20/30/40/50

Critical Charm/Chant

• Stat influential base Critical bonus reduced to 3/6/9/12/15, from 5/10/15/20/25

Evasive Charm/Chant

• Stat influential base Dodge bonus reduced to 3/6/9/12/15, from 5/10/15/20/25

Bug Fixes

• Wind Step effect is correctly displaying the right effect values now.
• The Viking Helmet name was found.
• Corrected the bonus stat on the Meister Flame Frame.

So i read this a couple of time to make sure my eyes weren't cheating on me aswell as some replies in this topic, ill be honest here and say i didnt read them all.

 

First question what pops into my mind is why champions gain a boost in some of their skills? I migt be wrong here but champions aint bad fighters at all.

Berserk should be have some counter parts, making them able to get stunned or muted is a nice one, myself i thought about giving them more of a negative effect like adding attack speed down and accuracy down, but we will see how this works out. This change only aplied to the normal berserk or also on the unique one?

 

For the raider class i wonder why they lowered their accuracy and attack power on their weapons, while the biggest issue on raider is their massive attack speed? The attack speed overall already has been lowered aswell as attack power and accuracy in the buffs (not to mention the critical rate), I honestly think this is overdone by AND lowering attack power and accuracy on their weapons AND in the buffs (yes i know the buff part will afffect all classes) Speaking of these buffs, i wonder why you guys didn't effect them all like def and hp, in this mather the one who relies on these buffs the most (champion, Knights, crossbowscout) gain more of a boost when u only look at the buff part.

 

Sadly to see nothing has been done to the scout class (bowscout) besides being able to grant their allies with an additional critical boost, far as the buff part concerns they have been lowered on all aspects where a bowscout relies on. They're squishy enough already.

 

Luckaly this is a test server, so will see how the testing will work out, i,ve downloaded it but in my understanding this is draconis data. I'll wait till the leonis data is updated. But for now this is somewhat how i think this change will work out.

 

On a site note, any chanse u guys will consider removing the abillity for Knights to dispell buffs on their opponants. This class already are tanks, no need for them to dispell buffs, far as I (and with me some others) concern you might completely remove the abillity to dispell buffs from the game.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zurn, 28 April 2014 - 12:36 PM.
Inclosed 'quote' in a spoiler.

[Infinity49]

On a site note, any chanse u guys will consider removing the abillity for Knights to dispell buffs on their opponants. This class already are tanks, no need for them to dispell buffs, far as I (and with me some others) concern you might completely remove the abillity to dispell buffs from the game.

 

The knight is already under-played. Maybe you see a knight as tanky, but for me, it is more a notion of tanky-support. A normal person will not focus the knight first, but clerics/hugeDPSMaker, so the dispell is a must-have for knights to give some survi to his mates. Kick the notion of support with dispell/stun/taunt, you lose the main purpose of a knight. (if everyone want the dispell to be kicked of the knight skill tree this should be replaced by a short stun or a "push-back" skill with his shield or something like that).

In a RP vision, knight is like a crusader with holy magic and huge def. Not only a punching-ball, so this is not chocking to see dispell on a knight. 

 

Axe champion was great before the update but no as usefull than spear one or 2H. Give a buff to his spells is a good idea.

About raiders, they rely a lot of aspd. Nerfing it would be too much and be at the opposite of what a raider is done for.

Edited by Infinity49, 28 April 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[MidnightSmurf]

 

 

This change only aplied to the normal berserk or also on the unique one?

 

 

On a site note, any chanse u guys will consider removing the abillity for Knights to dispell buffs on their opponants. This class already are tanks, no need for them to dispell buffs, far as I (and with me some others) concern you might completely remove the abillity to dispell buffs from the game.

 

 

I personally wish the 50% immunity is on the normal one while it remains 100% on the unique.


Remove the ability to dispell entirely from the game! Oh yes, I've been in favour of this ever since it got presented. I think it's a stupid idea and always has been. I know there are plenty of people who agree. Those who disagree often, not always, play the characters that can dispell themself. I really wish they would consider this more seriously, it's simply not a fair skill in my oppinion - not for any class that have or might get it.

[Infinity49]

Remove the ability to dispell entirely from the game! Oh yes, I've been in favour of this ever since it got presented. I think it's a stupid idea and always has been. I know there are plenty of people who agree. Those who disagree often, not always, play the characters that can dispell themself. I really wish they would consider this more seriously, it's simply not a fair skill in my oppinion - not for any class that have or might get it.

Hm, I can understand this point of view, but if you want some fairness, Purify shouldn't exist either.

Why you should be able to remove debuffs but not buffs?

 

Edit: Then, in an optic of "nerfing" dispell, we could implemented a chance to dispell a buff or a debuff (like 75% chance to dispell a buff and 25% chance ti dispell a debuff on an opponent).

Edited by Infinity49, 28 April 2014 - 04:27 AM.

[jerremy]

Hm, I can understand this point of view, but if you want some fairness, Purify shouldn't exist either.

Why you should be able to remove debuffs but not buffs?

From a logical point of view, that makes sense, but when it comes down to it, there's a difference.

In the middle of battle, a debuff is a lot easier to reapply than a buff. As such, the dispell skill is quite a lot more obnoxious than the purify skill is.

[Graziano]

The knight is already under-played. Maybe you see a knight as tanky, but for me, it is more a notion of tanky-support. A normal person will not focus the knight first, but clerics/hugeDPSMaker, so the dispell is a must-have for knights to give some survi to his mates. Kick the notion of support with dispell/stun/taunt, you lose the main purpose of a knight. (if everyone want the dispell to be kicked of the knight skill tree this should be replaced by a short stun or a "push-back" skill with his shield or something like that).

In a RP vision, knight is like a crusader with holy magic and huge def. Not only a punching-ball, so this is not chocking to see dispell on a knight. 

 

Axe champion was great before the update but no as usefull than spear one or 2H. Give a buff to his spells is a good idea.

About raiders, they rely a lot of aspd. Nerfing it would be too much and be at the opposite of what a raider is done for.

A stun is fine, i rather see that then being able to dispell buffs.

You must see this game as a whole, not for a single class, Knights can take (tank) bourgs, arti's, raiders, scouts, champs, if this damage from muse classes is way to strong then there should be a counter for that class individualy, not a skill who give a negative effect on all classes. This either can be done in a Mdef boost (also the right gears towards these classes would do significantly changes).

Dispell skills are just way overdone no mather which class it would have.

 

About raiders, it was the all combined part where i was talking about, already in buffs they gain a nerf aswell as other classes,on top of that they gain an extra nerf on accuracy and attack speed. On top of that hawkers are the only class who also got their defensive rates (dodge) lowered, where all other classes remain their defensive rates (def/mdef).

Edited by Graziano, 28 April 2014 - 04:42 AM.

[Infinity49]

From a logical point of view, that makes sense, but when it comes down to it, there's a difference.

In the middle of battle, a debuff is a lot easier to reapply than a buff. As such, the dispell skill is quite a lot more obnoxious than the purify skill is.

I add an edit to my post!

 

I'm not agree with your scenario. A lot of clerics have tomes to apply 2 buffs with one spell. And yeah, time you cast your buffs, you cannot heal. But that the exact same situation for debuffs (1 or 2 per spells). A majority of debuffs are done by casting a spell, generally with no damage or thoses damages are so low compared to "normal attack" or a "DPS skill" that calling it "damages" is quite funny. It's really depending od the situation and the teamplay of each team.

Then, i can understand that there is not enough clerics to remove all the debuffs, so we can nerf dispell, but delete it? That's really too much.

Edited by Infinity49, 28 April 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[pdfisher]

I personally wish the 50% immunity is on the normal one while it remains 100% on the unique.

 

I play a champ, and I think the 100% immunity is a little OP. I would like to see a reduction to 50% for the normal one, and perhaps 80% for the Unique one.

[Graziano]

I add an edit to my post!

 

I'm not agree with your scenario. A lot of clerics have tomes to apply 2 buffs with one spell. And yeah, time you cast your buffs, you cannot heal. But that the exact same situation for debuffs (1 or 2 per spells). A majority of debuffs are done by casting a spell, generally with no damage or thoses damages are so low compared to "normal attack" or a "DPS skill" that calling it "damages" is quite funny. It's really depending od the situation and the teamplay of each team.

Then, i can understand that there is not enough clerics to remove all the debuffs, so we can nerf dispell, but delete it? That's really too much.

Imo dispell is and Always will be overpowered, u missing the point that when you rebuff in a war you will miss the additional charm clerics put on before buffing. In 1on1 there is no one te rebuff you at all.

 

How about having this skill do a negative effect on stats (or 2 stats at the time) for 5 seconds, that wil be an whole different scenario.

[Infinity49]

A stun is fine, i rather see that then being able to dispell buffs.

You must see this game as a whole, not for a single class, Knights can take (tank) bourgs, arti's, raiders, scouts, champs, if this damage from muse classes is way to strong then there should be a counter for that class individualy, not a skill who give a negative effect on all classes. This either can be done in a Mdef boost (also the right gears towards these classes would do significantly changes).

Dispell skills are just way overdone no mather which class it would have.

 

About raiders, it was the all combined part where i was talking about, already in buffs they gain a nerf aswell as other classes,on top of that they gain an extra nerf on accuracy and attack speed. On top of that hawkers are the only class who also got their defensive rates (dodge) lowered, where all other classes remain their defensive rates (def/mdef).

About the dispell, I guess it could be a debate to have.

In my answer, if knight have dispell it's because it's a class magic-related. On Compendium "Endowed with the power of holiness, Knights have the strongest Defense Power of any job and are ideal at fighting battles at the front lines and protecting their comrades".

Every class has his strenght and weakenesses. The dispell is not used to try to survive to a mage, but to help his mates. (i had never see a knight running after a mage to dispell him). Dispell is here to counter a bit the buff system in a way more powerfull than debuff but not everyone have dispell and the CD is fine to avoid the spam of it (you really have to choose the good target and the good time and not just "Oh a ennemy, let's debuff him right now huehuehue").

 

About raiders, i really don't know much about them. I'm not playing one, and in PvP this is not the class which annoy me. I let the squichy classes debate of this nerf.

 

 

Edit: I'm not against a nerf of dispell. I'm against is deleting. I thnik we could fine a fair nerf of it like purify.

 

Edit 2: 

 

Imo dispell is and Always will be overpowered, u missing the point that when you rebuff in a war you will miss the additional charm clerics put on before buffing. In 1on1 there is no one te rebuff you at all.

 

How about having this skill do a negative effect on stats (or 2 stats at the time) for 5 seconds, that wil be an whole different scenario.

 

 

The dispell has a fair CD, you can't spam it. For knights, you can 1 v 1 if you want, but a tanky knight is not here to dps, hard to kill, but that's not him who will kill you. I never 1 v 1, I'll try to see what can i do but i don't think 1 v 1 as kinght is fun.

There are a lot of spells who are "OP" in 1 v 1. And the notion of counter class is too much present. I don't think this kind of pvp should give the direction of the updates about skills and classes.

 

Edited by Infinity49, 28 April 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Graziano]

just keep debuffing and you will win the 1on1. doesnt sound legit rite

[Infinity49]

I told you, i never 1 v 1 with my tanky-support knight, it doesn't seem fun (if you take all max debuffs, u cannot take all the ap passives, you always have to make a choice in your skill tree). But i do not think because a raider kill a cleric we should nerf/up X skills of each class because in 1 c 1 this class won. All the game is based of a certain balance between all the classes. Only Mage(?) and Tanky/Xbow knights can use dispell. When Leonis show us the data from CD matches, Knights were not so played, and we didn't know if thoses knights were tanky/1H or Xbow.

So again, i can understand a counterbalance to the dispell, but not the suppression of this skill. I guess the DEV team will let us know quite soon about that. 

Edited by Infinity49, 28 April 2014 - 05:34 AM.

[kumpiakot]

just keep debuffing and you will win the 1on1. doesnt sound legit rite

 

is this debuff goes with the mage as well? or we are just talking about knight alone?i dont mind removing dispell but the thing is there is scale/success rate on shield jab..if were gonna remove the debuff as a whole im pretty sure mage will suffer a lot however mage's attack power is way far compared to a knight..knight takes time to take down any class.. just my opinion

[Feuer]

Taking away a Mages Dispell or a Knights dispell would be like taking away a Cleric's purify. 

[ChickenBucket]

just keep debuffing and you will win the 1on1. doesnt sound legit rite

 

Just keep stunning and you will  win the 1on1  doesnt sound legit rite, keep doing fire/poison damge,keep using  protect,keep using reflect,keep using buffs,keep using anything... doesn't sounds legit riiight?.

Knights Tank right. but they can barely kill.....sooo taking a chance of them doing something  messes them up even more  lol.

Graz graz.... stay with hawkers.

[MidnightSmurf]

Taking away a Mages Dispell or a Knights dispell would be like taking away a Cleric's purify. 

 

I disagree but I should add I don't fully understand the comparison.
 

We're talking of removing buffs all together with a skill. Purify cleanses the victim of a debuff that would otherwise last for a limited period of time. I'd instead compare that removing the dispell would be equal to nerfing the dual swords ms down debuff. Aren't most people agreing that this ms down is a bit too much in it's current state as it makes it impossible to escape. It's argueable that dispells make it impossible to fight.
 

 

Edit: got a bit confused by my own text there so I shortened it by quite a bit

Edited by MidnightSmurf, 28 April 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[bl0b]

Don't think the movement speed down (dual raider one, at least, mage was always intended to be a snare of sorts) was ever intended to immobilise players. As someone who's been doing the snaring, and getting snared myself, I can feel your pain, but with the current setup lowering the duration wouldn't work out very well. Perhaps slightly scale down the effect so it won't have the 'snaring' effect, and would just be a strong slow in most occasions.

The Duration on these debuffs is what makes them overpowered, 20 seconds for the dual raider and 10 seconds on the mage's debuff. imagine being stuck in one spot for 20 seconds just waiting for your death that's definitely coming and there's nothing you can do about it?. The effects i don't mind, its how long they last considering how powerful they are.

[MidnightSmurf]

The effects i don't mind, its how long they last considering how powerful they are.

 

This is what I would compare to dispell skills. The effects of a dispell are even longer *mischevious smile* then those debuffs you mention. 

[jerremy]

The Duration on these debuffs is what makes them overpowered, 20 seconds for the dual raider and 10 seconds on the mage's debuff. imagine being stuck in one spot for 20 seconds just waiting for your death that's definitely coming and there's nothing you can do about it?. The effects i don't mind, its how long they last considering how powerful they are.

I'm aware of that.

 

However, take into account the unique skill crippling storm (combines accu and mspd down effect into one skill).

If you lower the movement speed down duration, then that means the unique skill will completely lose its value as there is no point in a short duration accu down effect.

[bl0b]

I'm aware of that.

 

However, take into account the unique skill crippling storm (combines accu and mspd down effect into one skill).

If you lower the movement speed down duration, then that means the unique skill will completely lose its value as there is no point in a short duration accu down effect.

 That is complicated. I'm sure there is a solution to this, we just have not thought of it yet.

 

Also about the dispells, The knight is fine since I consider it more supportive rather then dps. The mage on the other hand does not need em.

[jerremy]

 That is complicated. I'm sure there is a solution to this, we just have not thought of it yet.

Which is what I stated in my first post to you. I don't mind a reduction in power to the movement speed down, but duration is not the way to go due to complications with the unique version of the skill. 

Either an increased cooldown or decreased effect could work, or a mix of both. But duration should stay the same (or at least not go under 15 seconds).

[MidnightSmurf]

We're dealing with skill changes - we're not limited to mere adjustments. Change the unique skill to suit your needs if that gives you an easier time making ideas spring forth.
 

What I've experienced from the community while playing CD/war in Draconis is that they are most upset by being so megaslowed for such a long time. I'd say the effect is fine (it's so not but I could live with it) and kinda fun but the duration of it is riddiculous. For a debuff to be so strong it should be shorter by most if not all others. That's just the general oppinion I've gotten while listening, even dual raiders have been agreeing.

Edited by MidnightSmurf, 28 April 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[jerremy]

Prob is, changing the unique skill in whatever way might work out for me (as the one who would make the suggestion), but perhaps not everyone. They would want to remove the skill from their build, but unique resets aren't very favorable considering they also remove some other skills that you would have to farm again (if you don't have the IM version).