296 replies to this topic

[Feuer]

I wanted to ask about the consideration of reduction to buffs.

The people who are stating a lot of feedback, are comparing the class buffs vs cleric buffs in terms of how much CHA is being used to acheive the numbers. However, those classes only benefit to the buffs/debuffs, while a cleric also gains healing from it. 

In a sense a Champ reduces his AP stats, to gain the buffs, where as a cleric doesn't need to reduce buff stats, to gain healing stats

is this being accounted for in the comparisons between class + cleric buffs, or only looking down the narrow scope of buffs singularly?

 

Also for the Axe champs crit buffs.

I wanted to point out while 

1: Yes the crit debuff is strong, it also only will be lasting 5 seconds, with a 7 second cooldown. This means you don't always have the effect, and you can only ever place it on one target at a time. If you're taking multiple hits from more then 1 char, you're out of luck. You also have to constantly keep it up, to get the benefit.

I'd seem some comparisons between the Axe crit down + Katar.

In an engagement, the katar can veritably keep the stacks up, and gian the benefit for 100% of the duration of an encounter once stacked. While an axe champion no matter how well times, would only ever receive the benefit of about 80% of the time.

 

Oh, for the AoE's, the 200/s burn is level 1 burn status, same as a AoE poison/Mage burn with the disadvantage its a 15 second CD. The higher one [400/s] is also on a 20 second CD. So you're no able to spam them, no where near in fact. 

[MidnightSmurf]

Also for the Axe champs crit buffs.

I wanted to point out while 

1: Yes the crit debuff is strong, it also only will be lasting 5 seconds, with a 7 second cooldown. This means you don't always have the effect, and you can only ever place it on one target at a time. If you're taking multiple hits from more then 1 char, you're out of luck. You also have to constantly keep it up, to get the benefit.

 

Oh, for the AoE's, the 200/s burn is level 1 burn status, same as a AoE poison/Mage burn with the disadvantage its a 15 second CD. The higher one [400/s] is also on a 20 second CD. So you're no able to spam them, no where near in fact. 

 

A 2 second gap for a skill on a class that mostly rely on skills to do damage, I fail to see a serious matter.

An aoe for a class that through the days of Rose has been intended as a single target class is fine especially since it has a long cooldown. Personally I don't wanna see another burn/poison skill in the game, I'm getting sick and tired of them while they have nerfed the Purify to ashes.

I think most agree that axe champ needed a slight boost, a tad. What I'm seing is the same what have happened so many things; community asks for something and it gets turned to the extreme rather then doing it step by step. If it was done step by step it could be in the patch notes already and the entire community would be testing it rather then a very few on Pegasus server. What I mean that if a change is done ever so slightly after it's been asked for by the community as a whole it will not be so OP it dominates everything. You will see if it needs a little bit of scaling up or a little nudge down.
As for a gamebreaking change as the buffs, that's an entirely different matter where I think Pegasus is an excellent choice. My view.

My axechamp scored extremly well in CD when I played it for a few weeks and it was often at the top of the board. Just putting it out there that I had no problems playing my champ in CD, an entirely different matter when it came to 1vs1 where most classes poo'd on me. If this change takes play I'll most certainly play it again and aint gonna give a damn about my spear nor sword champ. Unless it changes again of couse wich this feedback is intended to.

Edited by MidnightSmurf, 30 April 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[DestinyDeoxys]

I would give my honest opinion about the changes regarding Axe champ, even though I wish they become OP, so I can finally sell my large supply of eternal decimation lol hahahahahah

The animation speed up for weapon toss, weapon launcher, champion strike, final strike, axe wrath and axe storm are totally needed. Also, the burn effect added to axe wrath will not make any significant change, because axe storm is already an AOE burn effect (200 burn per sec for 5 sec), a burn don't stack with another burn, only the bleeding effect from Final strike will stack with a burn.

Also the critical down debuff magnitude increase will not overpower the class either, because an axe champ will lead any characters by 50% crit cap easily with a Luna set (13% crit), you will get lead by 50% from an axe champ no matter what, so the crit debuff increase should not change anything.

Now, the increase on dodge down effect from overhead attack will finally solve the most important weakness of an axe champ, that is the accuracy problem. But that will basically defeats the purpose of a sword champ, what's the point of a sword champ if you can have enough accuracy to hit everyone with an axe? So, I don't think this change is needed.

Finally, the healing effect from champion strike is not needed as well with all the skill cast speed up, but I would not complain about the bleeding effect on Final strike, because this skill is located at the end of the skill tree, so something powerful definitely deserve to be there.



Before you make these changes directly to the champ class, don't forget you can totally just give them out as unique PvP or PvM skill, as currently you only have one PvP skill for each sub-weapon and one PvM skill for each sub-weapon.

[FireJin]

Also the critical down debuff magnitude increase will not overpower the class either, because an axe champ will lead any characters by 50% crit cap easily with a Luna set (13% crit), you will get lead by 50% from an axe champ no matter what, so the crit debuff increase should not change anything.

 

 

This effect a lot in term of War or CD.

 

Combo of Axe champ with this crit down to Cleric, low crit type mage or to people with no IM Crit Passive (10%)can be like crit down and then stun. Their crit down would make them completely 0% or near the 0%. Then as you know mage and cleric will be main target from enemy. They will be getting crit from other hitter like hell for 5 secs and they only have 2 secs shortage from axe skill crit down cooldown.

 

Also one way to make Axe would not waste their sen stat for high critical rate. They can improve their own AP by use stat point to more str instead of sen because they can make enemy like 30% crit down (with a bit charm) in one skill.

 

Now, the increase on dodge down effect from overhead attack will finally solve the most important weakness of an axe champ, that is the accuracy problem. But that will basically defeats the purpose of a sword champ, what's the point of a sword champ if you can have enough accuracy to hit everyone with an axe? So, I don't think this change is needed.

 I would not complain about the bleeding effect on Final strike, because this skill is located at the end of the skill tree, so something powerful definitely deserve to be there.

 

 
I agree on this tho. Already posted it on page 6

Edited by FireJin, 30 April 2014 - 06:18 PM.

[Ahya]

 

Dual Raider debuffs

 

I think the MSPD especially, and maybe the accu debuffs, could be toned down a little. It is extremely easy to give everyone (that isn't in preci) permanent cold snap with a dual raider, and even those that are in speed gear will run at 600-800ms. Not too sure about the accu debuff since it is difficult to observe its effects during a war. 

 

Possible changes:

1. Greatly reduce the scaling on the [number] for the debuff

2. Increase the cooldown to 20-30 seconds so that it is similar to Frost Ring (I think? 50% mspd debuff on mage)

-----This would make it so that the buff can still be applied every 15s or so, like many other debuffs, provided you got Crippling Storm

3. Reduce the scaling of the [number] for the debuff by a small amount and increase the cooldown to 10-15s.

 

I agree, the MSPD debuff needs a little tone down.

 

The MSPD debuff is quite.. Irritating. Not just simply irritating. It gets on my nerves especially when I see a dual raider on the opposite side. It automatically cancels out the option to stay in one place, fighting the enemy. Moving around becomes a must than just an option. And to be honest, it's spammable. A spammable aoe coldsnap is very useful for a mage, especially when the dual raider is an ally. I myself am extremely excited about how many kills I would get against a defending team hugging the crystal, with a good and powerful MSPD down at my team's disposal.

 

Regarding the possible changes:

1. This reduction on the scaling on the debuff value would merit the spammable aspect, though weak. The sacrifice on charm would not be that much of a difference, even if spammable. In the end, dual raiders would lose the need to sacrifice for a powerful MSPD down, especially since the scaling is weakened greatly.

 

2. In this case, the cooldown would go skyrocketing, but the powerful effect would remain as it is. This requires proper timing on the side of the dual raider, but once executed, their team can do away with the enemies even before the purify takes effect.

 

3. Probably keep the effect to a very powerful level, yet no snare, and the cooldown increased? Lower the effect a bit, in such a way that would not be detrimental to those who sacrificed so many things for charm. Increase the cooldown a bit, in such a way that would not prohibit recasting after a time, though not so little that it would still be spammable. Maybe, level the duration in order to equal the cooldown.

 

I would suggest..

The effect be lowered a little. Cooldown be increased to 12.5 seconds, and the duration be 12.5 seconds as well. If you notice, both cooldown and duration have a 7.5 second difference from their previous values. This low cooldown-duration ratio would require constant notice, awareness and reactivity, yet the window in order to somehow recast it for an emergency later. Better than the long cooldown-duration ratio, which would be a powerful, long lasting, one time effect, which would be easily taken away out of a clash by a well-timed purify from a cleric.

 

On a side note..

Spoiler

1. Since the MSPD debuff is combined in Crippling Storm with the Accu down, all changes of cooldown concerning the MSPD down should be applied in the same way to the Accu down and Crippling Storm.

2. And as long as Purify Potion exists as a no-cooldown purify, the cooldown of those debuffs should not at all be touched. I suggest giving these Puri pots the same cooldown as a Red Potion (ones crafted in crates).

[MidnightSmurf]

I think it's the casting speed of the Axe that will have the most impact. Imagine a Axe champ who throw the skills so much faster, that's gonna be one immense amount of damage per skill especially as nearly each skill will be a HIT (dodge down) and a CRIT (crit down) and a Burn (two of them) + stuns and a ms down. An Axe champ thrives on pumping out skill, argueably the most powerful solo hits in the game already - imagine what this update will do.

I like my axe champ so don't get me wrong, in favour of a boost but this whole thing is silly.


Devs kindly comment what YOU are thinking, give us something to work with rather then throwing the same arguements over and over. Since you haven't chosen any representatives, all you will hear is our chatter. It's up to you now to sort through things, not up to the future representatives. Give some feedback on the feedback, show/tell us what you make of it. You've heard us speak our mind and you can wait all you like but I believe the arguements will go around in circles till someone steps in and says: This is what we've come to understand, we've chosen to do these changes - let's try this anew.
If you want more detailed suggestion you should point in wich direction you think it would be suitable. We got no class representatives to do the pointing - you do it.

I wanna encourage you to take initiative cause I aint seing it.

Edited by MidnightSmurf, 30 April 2014 - 06:22 PM.

[emobaby]

i have a question

its a rather pointless one as far as this topic goes

but what about those of us that dont pvp?

 

[DarkSideOfMoon]

i have a question

its a rather pointless one as far as this topic goes

but what about those of us that dont pvp?

 

My spear champ for example will lose

• -7.5% AP (-194)
• -8.6% ACC (-130)
• -8.1% Dodge (-130)
• -28.2% ASPD (-65%)
• -32.7% MSPD (-454)

and will gain nothing!

 

Could you Developers maybe think about developing seperate skill trees for PvM and PvP, so whenever you tweak on PvP, the PvM would not be affected.

This is a serious suggestion!!!

Balancing is an issue, which is solely PvP related.

So why would People who enjoy to play their PvM would need to suffer everytime someone in PvP is crying for being too weak or too slow or too OP by another class?

[Feuer]

My spear champ for example will lose

• -7.5% AP (-194)
• -8.6% ACC (-130)
• -8.1% Dodge (-130)
• -28.2% ASPD (-65%)
• -32.7% MSPD (-454)

and will gain nothing!

 

Could you Developers maybe think about developing seperate skill trees for PvM and PvP, so whenever you tweak on PvP, the PvM would not be affected.

This is a serious suggestion!!!

Balancing is an issue, which is solely PvP related.

So why would People who enjoy to play their PvM would need to suffer everytime someone in PvP is crying for being too weak or too slow or too OP by another class?

 

Not even half the updates are out for Soldiers/Dealers. Your spear will be getting something. 

[coalchamberloco]

I have waited to reply to this topic until I could really test the update.  Now that the data is live for leo I am really concerned.  As it is right now, without stat buffs I can go into tg and hold my own with my +60 buffs my cleric gives.  People with stat buffs from the other class's have an advantage, but as long as I have a good build it isn't so bad, doesn't feel pay to win that much.

 

Someone said why should my champ rely on a cleric to fight, well I reply with why should I need a cleric, soldier, dealer, and hawker to stand a chance?  To stand on equal ground now I would have to spend way to much money on the game to even come close to what others can possibly have from stat buffers. 

 

If you want to remove buffs from clerics and make them healers that have some offense that is fine, other games do pretty well with that concept.  If you want to give every class a small buff that helps out everyone that is also fine, but Jesus is there a difference between the stat buffers and normal buffers now. 

 

Honestly I didn't see this one coming, and feel cleric buffs and any class buffs should be about equal.  Making one so much better just ruins the experience.

 

What I suggest is to go down the road a game like star wars the old republic did, and give every class a minor buff that wont cripple a side to not have, but is a nice little bonus.  I really don't even understand the path you guys are trying to take, and if you would just tell us so we know what is coming we would stop thinking you are just playing this by ear, and the community would stop feeling that only one member of the forums is really being listened to. 

[Feuer]

Coal chanber, that was one of the best worded reply's I've heard in a very long time, not only does it read easily, is clearly demonstrates your idea, and I agree with it. Thank you. 

[MidnightSmurf]

@coalchamberloco

That is so nicely put and has good points I just wanna say I agree as well.

Thought..
If a class such as Soldier has about equal buffs to Cleric, a CD team with no cleric but great diversity (many classes) will still have them buffs and could at least make an attempt at playing.
Maybe the buffs on classes needs to be a little bit better, keyword little. If we should get players to get them. But I would rather see a flat % on these buffs so Charm doesn't have AS much of an impact and therefor making it more worthwhile to taking the skills. Otherwise a player wich want the skills would feel some pressure to get charm as well to make it worthwhile. This I think would make many not pick them and we'd be back at square one. Charm still would affect debuffs and the stat buff on these classes.

And since you're at the same time toning down clerics buffs a little I can see this work being in favour of making CD playable without a Cleric, even if having a Cleric would still be a huge benefit.

[Feuer]

Hah! About time this conversation is working out ^^

@Phish, that's precisely what I have been trying to post. 

The only minor difference is if those specific buffs are made to only %, it does 2 things

1: The original purpose of having the buffs be a % + # was so the # can grow with you as you level, design wise i think it's so you feel like as you level, your gain more potential.

2: If the # is removed completely -not sure if this is what you meant?- Then it takes a massive toll o chars that are built for CHA just to increase those buffs + other status downs. 

 

But yes, over-all you both hit the points I was trying to make. 

The Larger benefit of having a cleric would indeed be those heals. As for the buffs, there should be with good diversity as you put, a way to counter / equal it without a cleric -assuming that's the luck you got-.

 

So you've both essentially hit exactly what I was trying to say and welp, I'm happy . haha

[ChickenBucket]

back in pre evo each class had his own buffs and to have "full" buffs you'll need like one of each class on a pt  and everything was better since you dint rely as much on bufffs as now.

[MidnightSmurf]

Not sure if you're talking to Phish or me there but I'll have a go at it anyway

You say that removing the # all together, wich I meant, will take a massive toll while I think it will be the opposit. It's the # that would make people not want to spend the SP in the first place, you would feel it wouldn't be worth it since a Cleric buff still would be better or a character with more Charm would be better. Making it a flat % would encourage people to still spend those SP to get in and be more group-oriented. It's not fair that it also would require charm for them to be considered 'worth the effort'.

Characters built for charm will work as normal as I also stated I wouldn't want any changes to the stat buff nor debuffs. So no change really as nearly nobody currently got the selfbuffs, very very few anyhow since it take nearly max charm to get it better then a Clerics. And very very few would wanna spend that amount in Charm and get the gears for it. I'm hoping this would remove the issue altogether and encourage players to pick them buffs.

Edited by MidnightSmurf, 01 May 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[Feuer]

Lmfao sorry i just woke up recently and got you two confused in my mind~

 

Oh no I see the validity in your point I just meant it should also be a small bonus, not a deciding factor.

 

For example maybe? theory crafting here,

15% + 45  for class buffs

10% + 100  for cleric buffs

 

It would have to be a small difference between the two, very small. but maybe some logic, lets see if this looks like it might match the end result we're all going for? It may not pan out that way just a idea.

 

Essentially, higher % buffs influence things with higher bases, uh like Champs AP or Knight Defense. So these higher %'s are better on primary statistics.

However, lower % higher static buffs are better for things at a lower base rate.

With those values, if a champ had 800 accu and 1600 ap

Cleric: 10% + 100

Class: 15% + 45

 

Cleric:

1860 AP

980 Accu

 

Class:

1885 AP

965 Accu

So in theory this should work.

 

This would make it so clerics can still "power level" Parties at lower levels, but are also the "reinforcing" buffers, statistically better for buffing weaknesses, where as class buffs are good for bolstering prime statistics, like Champ AP.

 

You also don't want to take away too much from CHA, as the only two other factors for CHA are Healing Power, and Status Down power.

 

The only issue atm, cause this is similar to what we currently have, is the weight of CHA. 

How much CHA should someone have to get a 15% + 45,

how does that compare to a clerics need for CHA to get 10% + 100? 

How much is a reasonable loss of other stats to get that 15% + 45 for the class?

Should it be based on something else?

Should those buff values for class buffs be 50% CHA 50% Prime stat [Soldier STR, Hawker Dex etc[?

 

It all I think comes down to how much weight as a stat does CHA hold. 

 

Edited by Feuer, 01 May 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[DestinyDeoxys]

While you buff the axe champ class, you might as well take the time to buff the dual sword raider class because it is still underpowered, the most important thing you do first is to increase all their skill cast speed, then you might wanna mess with the acc passive and def passive because they are percentage based which will turn out a low value.

I suggest to change it to acc per STR for accuracy passive and def per DEX for defense passive, just like how you put STR and acc together on the balanced jewelery set, and how you put DEX and def together on the hunter jewelery set. So, there is a reason for people to farm those jewelery set again.

[MidnightSmurf]

The only issue atm, cause this is similar to what we currently have, is the weight of CHA. 

How much CHA should someone have to get a 15% + 45,

how does that compare to a clerics need for CHA to get 10% + 100? 

How much is a reasonable loss of other stats to get that 15% + 45 for the class?

Should it be based on something else?

Should those buff values for class buffs be 50% CHA 50% Prime stat [Soldier STR, Hawker Dex etc[?

 

It all I think comes down to how much weight as a stat does CHA hold. 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It boils down to what influence we will let charm have. I'm trying to remove the issue all together by making it a flat %. As you point out however it will have a bigger impact on some things such as the Champs AP and the Knights Def - can we allow them to be?

What if we give the class buffs higher % flat buff while the cleric has a significantly higher # nr as they spent far more on Charm stats and gears.

This way wouldn't a Soldeir HP buff, example, have a higher impact on Soldier classes that have a high base HP (partly due to the added str?) while the Clerics HP buff would have a higher impact on Dealer/Hawker class?

Does it sound pausible?

[Leonis]

So, there's a lot of feedback, but I'm having a little bit of a time keeping some of it straight. Especially since the update only touched on a couple classes, not all of them.

If we could keep it within the realm of what was done, to simplify that to start with and make that better, it would speed up the process of getting to a final point of implementation. After which, we can turn attention towards other aspects and classes.

 

So:

Champion

The 'Axe Champion' was actually missing some effects, like the other skill trees have for various skills. Most Axe skills were just damage, nothing to support the design of the tree or a build. Critical down, accuracy down, are some of the methods of status affliction to assist with their offensive strength design and overcome one of their major design weaknesses.

1. What's good about the changes?
2. What's bad about the changes?
3. What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

The 'Sword Champion', was showing too much consistency in its ability. One of those being, the assured chance of silencing a target without resistances to it. For that reason, the chance was reduced to 80%, from 100%. Not much more to say regarding that.

1. What's good about the change?
2. What's bad about the change?
3. What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

Clerics and buffs

The idea of how reliant buffs have become to the mentality of playing, there's a lot that could be done. However, as options go, I would prefer not to completely take away skills from a class. So in case I haven't mentioned this before, here it is again.

 

Back when we first introduced the Charm update, to influence buffs, we had already set the reduction to the values of buffs, that could be influenced. However, and very unfortunate, we forgot to include the influence of Charm to those values, when considering their upper potential. So in effect, the buff impact was nearly greater than before, even with the cut back on how strong they were prior. Kind of a two steps forward, one step back situation.

 

So with that being said, that was one of the reasons to want to scale back the values a bit further and put it to the test to see the outcome.

Yes, the % is a set standard of ability improvement, so there's always at least that at a minimum. But the influence of stats is where it gets a bit difficult.

 

On one hand, I'm hoping to try to manage to get the personal class buffs, to be more competitive with a Cleric's support potential. The idea of having a full group of each class, could rival that of a support Cleric. There are pro's and con's to either situation, but that is the core intention here. Discussion over the outcome is what makes game play interesting! In any case, the idea is there and one we're working towards.

 

On the other hand, we also don't want to make a class buff SO overwhelmingly powerful, that it becomes a breaking aspect of the class or to game play. Nor do we want to make it remove the need for buffs from a Cleric who's invested a great deal of effort in to being the best support they could be.

 

At this point, it will be a small numbers game. Where do you draw the line for a class' build, to let the buff be competitive and not overpowered?

Support Clerics have typically a very high amount of charm, and to make a class provide a buff that doesn't challenge a full support Cleric, but offers something close to without having to invest in to a large chunk of Charm themselves, is very, very difficult.

 

With that being said, let's continue the process. For the Cleric buff changes:

1. What's good about the changes?
2. What's bad about the changes?
3. What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

Oh and a side note: The reason why dodge was reduced, was to keep it on the same level as accuracy, so they could remain in equal benefit when receiving both buffs from a Cleric. It was very much noticed that all defensive buffs were not changed, as reviewing them, the values they provided were acceptable for what they would do to influence combat.

 

These are the simplest questions that can be asked to help things get focused. I'd also appreciate if we could keep it to the changes first, before we lead in to other matters. I find that the "taking it one step at a time" will work better for us, so we don't spread ourselves out too thin, too fast. Which is quite easy to do, and we'll get more accomplished in the both short and long run that way.

[Leonis]

Also, I've mentioned this before, for the sake of helping with crunching numbers.

 

Primary Stats influence the base value of a status effect by: primary_stat / 300

You start with 15, of all primary stats, so you will always have a natural : 5% increase to status values.

 

The Charm stat influences the base value of a status effect by: Charm / 100

You start with 10, Charm, so you will always have a natural : 10% increase to status values.

 

So, you naturally have a 15% increase to the base value of any status effect, buff or debuff.

 

[Phish]

I like how I get credit for suggestions I don't even make.

 

I've been too busy to check up on Pegasus but I might be able to squeeze an hour in later tonight, so I don't want to give any specific feedback just yet. 

 

 

 

MidnightSmurf,

 

I support your suggestion 100% regarding buffs. I reskilled my champ to get rid of power overflow and staminal assist because they were redundant in wars compared to Cleric buffs due to lack of charm. For many classes unless you invest into charm its of no use to get many self buffs for group combat. Clerics are practically the 'master' of all buffs and this in return spites them in the long run because they are always required (in wars for example).

 

They still do have access to party buffs that other classes don't have such as MP, Magic Defense, Movement Speed, Dodge, Additional Damage though even if other classes buff were improved to be equal or better without the charm investment Clerics will end up being just as much in demand.

Edited by Phish, 01 May 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Leonis]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It boils down to what influence we will let charm have. I'm trying to remove the issue all together by making it a flat %. As you point out however it will have a bigger impact on some things such as the Champs AP and the Knights Def - can we allow them to be?

What if we give the class buffs higher % flat buff while the cleric has a significantly higher # nr as they spent far more on Charm stats and gears.

This way wouldn't a Soldeir HP buff, example, have a higher impact on Soldier classes that have a high base HP (partly due to the added str?) while the Clerics HP buff would have a higher impact on Dealer/Hawker class?

Does it sound pausible?

 

Plausible, yes. But have you considered, if you make the Cleric's straight values higher, the impact it will have on low level game play? They will overpower low level play so dramatically at that point, I fear the mentality of "power leveling" will onset a normality within the community that players without access to it will not want to even try to play.

 

I'm not opposed to power leveling, I think it's a great thing for old players to have that experience and have an edge to getting new characters up to content tiers they want to. But I have to try to keep a large scope of view over game play influences and whether its something we want, even if it is a change from a prior design intention, we have to adapt as ROSE grows and the community changes.
 

[MidnightSmurf]

When you say 'Cleric's straight values higher' do you mean the % or the + #?

The suggestion is not to make the % higher on clerics then it already is. It's about making the % on the other classes buffs higher then the clerics. You're also nerfing the clerics buffs with this update - I don't see the problem of powerlevling. It looks to me as lvling would get slowed down rather then sped up. What have I missed?

[FireJin]

Champion

Axe Champ

Spoiler

What's good about the change?

Spoiler

Final Strike

• Increased cast speed significantly.
• Added Bleed effect for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds.

 

This is fine to be adding since Axe champ is decided for strong single hit damage

What's bad about the change?

Spoiler

Weapon Toss

• Increased Movement Speed Down base to 20/40/60/80, from 10/15/20/25/30

 

This should not be changed from Live Server because PvP Weapon Launcher is decided for most axe to have and catch the runner. And if this amount of mspd down would make axe full of danger, range stun, and big mspd down.

 

 

Champion Strike

• Increased cast speed.
• Now converts 20%/40%/60%/80%/100% of damage to healing yourself.
• Also applies to unique version as well.

 

This definitely should not be added. Are you seriously to make 100% absorb? Axe almost be able to crit every classes with 100% Crit damage. They going to add up like 5k HP + if they crit. As you say Axe design tree is to do damage. This absorb effect it totally over-design It is like second red pot for them in every 15 secs. This is not include the HP they can earn in red pot6 (6.7k HP)

 

 

Axe Wrath

• Increased cast speed significantly.
• Added Burn effect dealing 1000/1500/1500/1800/2000 damage over time.

 

- This should not be added while axe are not design for doing better in AOE type. And another aoe from Soldier tab on axe skill tree already made 200 burn dmg per sec for 5 Secs. Also it should not be compared their burn damage to mage because their survival ability in CD are totally different.

 

- If this is added, axe champ can use aoe combo delay on each burn so one aoe 400 dmage, once is done, they can do another burn for 200 damage. It made axe not even doing good in single target, but it is also making them doing good in group attack.

What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

Spoiler

Overhead Attack

• Increased Dodge Down base to 20/40/60/80, from 10/15/20/25/30

 

The change of debuff of dodge down as axe champ is too strong according to the damage of axe champ can make with 100% crit damage. This increase of number almost equal to PvP Geon from 2h champ .This is too obvious.

 

The change should be going by half or it should not have been changed (This will make purpose of having 2H champ who build beating for dodge user)

• Increased Dodge Down base to 15/30/45/60, from 10/15/20/25/30

 

Champion Hit

• Increased Critical Down base to 30/60/90/120/150, from 10/15/20/25/30
• Increased cooldown to 7 seconds, from 6.
• Critical Down effect reduced to 5 seconds, from 20.

 

This is definitely going too much. with 150 charm on my axe I have 5%+655 Crit down that is equal to 5%+26.2% = 31.2% crit down in one skill and crit down effect still 20 secs. While Crit katar raider have to earn stack for 20% cri down and they won't have enough sp to reach PvP Screw attack. So basically, Katar raider can reach only about 30% crit down with  a bit charm build. Nothing compare to Axe Champion Hit that can keep enemy like 30% crit down all the time.

 

This could be worst for cleric or low crit users in GA, Axe champ could make other hitter critical them like hell for 5 secs and Axe alone only have good damage.

 

It should be torn down by half from change

Change should be:

- Increased Critical Down base to 15/30/45/60/75, from 10/15/20/25/30

 

I agree on adding Bleeding stat. And somewhat increasing of Crit Down. But it is currently too much with so big crit down in one skill for 5 secs and 2 secs shortage from 7 secs cooldown. It doesn't help the victim of it a lot.

Also I could not comment on some skill increasing of cast speed, have to test in real war situation

2H Champ

Spoiler

What's good about the change?

Spoiler

Soul Wreck

• Reduced chance of Silence to 80%, from 100%.

 

It is somehow to be fine 80% is pretty high anyway.

What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

 

Spoiler

- According to the new axe change, almost every single and aoe skill they made do have status.effect for crit down, 2 burn , stun (2 stun for unique skill 100% and 70%), and dodge down.

2H champ only has 1 mute (80%), def down and dodge down. So you may be able to add Sword force with one more mute at 30% for about 3 secs

Spear Champ

 

Spoiler

What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

- Since there are no change on champ skill tree. I would suggest the same thing that I used to do it by adding one of aoe with accu down because currently spear dodge type is somewhat useless. Not many of them use dodge passive because they could not dodge any class properly. Axe and 2H have dodge down. So aoe accu down would make dodge passive from spear skill tree useful

 

The rest are about fine for spear champ for aoe type

 

 

Berserk change is good. Nothing more to comment

Also  I don't mention on aoe debuff (Berserk's Cry) because that skill is for all type of champ. So it depends on them that will they took it or not.

 

Cleric

 

Spoiler

What do you suggest should have been done as a change?

- The project that is going to be changed on cleric's buff and self buff from each classes are about fine, but it just needs to rescale it. So as I said it before in this thread

1. Keep Cleric's buff number as the same in Live server or less it really a bit if you think it is OP.

 

2. Then Rescale on each class selfbuff to make them about 450-500 charm equal to cleric's 1084 charm buff. It could not be acceptable if their selbuff lvl 5 with no charm can be higher than cleric's buff with max charm. Even other classes with 100 base charm, they still can reach 500 charm with charm gear like cleric to buff team. So the most classes that maybe able to surpass cleric buff can be spear champ and dual raider that they already have high charm base stat. They could reach over 600 charm with some charm gear to surpass cleric's buff

 

Torn down some cleric buff is to be fine. But rescaling should be made on other classes' selfbuff to be equal to 1084 charm buff with some amount of the charm they invest to. Not many cleric have enough asset to earn 1084 charm.

 

Clerics are still need anyway in most of thing. DG, CD, or Leveling Party. Or even CD situation one side does have cleric. and another side has no cleric but have full team for acc/ap/def/hp/mspd buff. They still have no chance to do anything against the team with cleric due to lack of other buff and no healing.

 

Also torn down cleric buff may need to adjust other status effect down and it may include to the xtal status in CD. It could take longer to the team to take xtal down because everyone status would be torn down

 

 

 

I only discuss about Champ and Cleric's buff in this post because this thread is only focus to change only this. I will do comment about other classes change when those classes are going to be focused.

 

 

Edited by FireJin, 01 May 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[Leonis]

When you say 'Cleric's straight values higher' do you mean the % or the + #?

The suggestion is not to make the % higher on clerics then it already is. It's about making the % on the other classes buffs higher then the clerics. You're also nerfing the clerics buffs with this update -

 

I am referring to the +#  (sorry)

 

I understood what you were saying. Now knowing which I was referring to, do you understand what I was explaining?

 

 

I don't see the problem of powerlevling. It looks to me as lvling would get slowed down rather then sped up. What have I missed?

Perhaps I was considering your statement of giving Clerics a bigger +# value, in comparison to what's currently on the live server. By what you commented, it seems you were giving it in comparison to what's on the Pegasus server.

 

But the consideration would be that when you start off at level 1, with your wooden sword, you have all of 25 attack power (let's just say). And let's say the +# value (base) is 25 (live server) Attack Power. A Cleric with 500 Charm, that 25 becomes 125. That's without the 10% consideration. That's of course, an extreme situation, but never the less, one I have to take in to consideration on whether we want to allow for something like that or not.

 

That 125 attack power, not only stacks with speed of killing, but the overkill potential, furthering the speed of power leveling by a considerable margin. And that's just buffing, so there's no items backing it up yet either.

 

Reducing the base 25 from the live server to 10, means that 125, would turn in to 50, with that 500 Charm setup. It may not sound like a difference, but it is, in the grand scheme of things. But I also see that it would not be as powerful for high level players either. Which I understand is a shame, but when you're also that high, a matter of 75 attack power difference, to me, would be easier to overcome than the impact of lower level play.

However, this is what the discussion is over So I'm happy to hear ideas to help make it as well rounded as possible so everyone can be happy about it. I would like to see Class buffs be more a choice, than simply relying on Clerics all the time.


@FireJin,

I appreciate the time you took to resupply your opinion and answer the direct changes that are being tested on Pegasus. You have some very good points and suggestions that i will take in to consideration and rework in to the changes for the classes. Your comment about the Spear Champ, even though they weren't changed, is relevant, because the class itself was and the skills in the tree are indeed relevantto consider because that was the reason why the Axe tree was looking to be tweaked to begin with.

 

Thank you~