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God Item Creation/WoE Rebalance


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#51 Necrohealiac

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 12:24 PM

and you're advocating punishing players for the mere fact that they've been playing the game longer?

if anything, I'd say the proliferation of mvps (legal or otherwise) causes more severe imbalances. GTB nullifies an entire class for one.
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#52 UlrichStern

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 12:28 PM

What if everyone could do god items? I mean, you need to have the castle to do the god. What if everyone could use that part of the castle without being the owner of it?

 

It takes a lot of the credit that guilds deserve -and a lot- to keep the castle. But at least no one would be super superior to the other for owning godlys.


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#53 PeaSoup

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 12:38 PM

and you're advocating punishing players for the mere fact that they've been playing the game longer?

if anything, I'd say the proliferation of mvps (legal or otherwise) causes more severe imbalances. GTB nullifies an entire class for one.

If you want to view it that way, I wouldn't be punishing anyone merley redefining what God Items are used for. This probably isnt the solution because The reason most people woe is for what the fix would be removing, Having an advantage in woe that is near unobtainable for less hardcore players. The point isn't to punish people for they're extremely hard work because i Know how much effort it is and  the extremes serious guild leaders go to to be great leaders and motivators as well as maintaning alot of things TS servers forums databases and events and what not at their own expense. But its a problem when the very thing that drives the competition kills it at the same time. and if there is no competition then whats the point of even having the god items in the first place? so you can squash someone with a few hundred mill worth of gear with your 100b+ geared out character?

 

Perhaps limiting the number of God items per guild or Per alliance can use would be a better solution Perhaps making god items users ready identifiable in woe almost like having a GM's name tag make the God users objectives in woe, That way you could strategize  for it. limiting the number per guild or per alliance will enable people to spread the love around Guild leaders could make a item to sell it to other guilds.

 

My ideas are probably ass and everyone will look down on me for trying to contribute, But i have played (and loved Dearly) the countless hours i have dropped into this game and only want to see it succeed in every way possible  if one of my half baked ideas were to spark someones imagination and get closer to a solution them im willing to take that risk. I want ragnarok to last another 10 years damnit!


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#54 HansLowell

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 12:43 PM

I believe those god item in woe should be limited to a a few unit per guild and the amount that can be borrowed would be based on guild lvl.

the guild leader would go to that npc and register his made god item to a maximum of one of each kind you would get a token for each god item.  Getting Each token would have a condition based on guild lvl.

Sleiphnir Token could be like Guild lvl 20. Brisingamen Guild lvl 30. Mjolnir Guild lvl 40 and Megingjard guild lvl 50.

 

Or maybe better, if its possible Reclaiming token could use guild exp meaning people in guild would have to exp their guild often to borrow god items.

 

Once the guild leader get his token he can trade it to the guild member who want to wear the god item. Once he reclaim it. the god item would be char bound and a rental during woe time. once woe finished the god item can't be used again.

 

Obviously It can't prevent people making many guilds to wear more god but it will slow them down to some point.

 

 

The god item made and used in PVM would remain unafected.


Edited by HansLowell, 18 February 2015 - 12:44 PM.

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#55 XStorm

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 01:04 PM

There is nothing wrong with god items, or mvp cards. 

 

However, they are supposed to be rare. If you take away god items, you will take away a lot of the driving force of WoE and the competition will be stale. I think this is something that Valkyrie and Valhalla may have in common? Valkyrie seems to enjoy econ and being rewarded. Valhalla appears to enjoy creating their god items. You can see this in WoE 1 when you watch those two guilds in particular bickering over belt castles.

 

In WoE 2 they [at least Valhalla anyway, I heard Valkyrie has been attacking them whilst they sit at home] seem to have no concerns about what is happening in terms of Economy castle ownership. 

 

WoE 2 is stale and my guess is that they have no need to fight eachother. And why would they, we see an Asprika made every day at the same time. IIRC Valhalla said they were bored with / quitting WoE 2 because there's no goal in the past, I suppose they found one. Mass farming Asprikas. I hear they have over thirty.

 

God items drive that competition. 

 

I don't think a server wipe will help because people won't trust the same issues to not end up happening again. Most of the concerns are about the staff anyway and all it would be doing is taking away the work of people on Classic now who have played the game as it. 

 

I like the idea of slowing down the big guilds. I don't think making things easier will allow guilds to catch up, I think it will just make certain guilds farm things faster. If making God Items is made two times faster for Aurora, then it is two times faster for a big guild like Valkyrie and maybe four times faster for an even bigger guild like Valhalla.

 

Maybe ask Valhalla to stop?


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#56 Themes

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 01:41 PM

I like the idea of slowing down the big guilds. I don't think making things easier will allow guilds to catch up, I think it will just make certain guilds farm things faster. If making God Items is made two times faster for Aurora, then it is two times faster for a big guild like Valkyrie and maybe four times faster for an even bigger guild like Valhalla.

 

You said a lot of pretty good things but I'm going to cherry pick this one to reply to.

 

 

Here's the problem, with the current system (1.0) only VH are really capable of making items. It takes more effort than any of the other guilds are willing to put forth to actually get it done, we've been trying to lower the seal requirement to 50 since the very first thread. If you were to make it harder this doesnt change anything, VH will make their items and even less guilds will be interested in even undertaking the task. If you make it easier VH will make their items easier and more often but other guilds will actually have a chance to get their items made.

 

It really just depends on what the point of any changes are. VH will always have the most of everything on this server as things currently stand, as the most active guild with the most active/hardcore players they will achieve more than everyone else. If you want to make changes to stop people from getting discouraged when starting out, you probably need to make things easier. If you want to lower the overall god item to player ratio make it harder. Any change you make though will put people off and there's no right answer.


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#57 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 01:49 PM

However, they are supposed to be rare. If you take away god items, you will take away a lot of the driving force of WoE and the competition will be stale.

 

The competition has been stale for a long time now.

 

Looking at the different things to be competitive about, most offer nothing. For some things I will be putting down the most effective ways, not necessarily the "funnest" ways since fun is subjective to opinions. 

 

-Leveling "race"- Getting to 99 isn't an issue or a "race" anymore. This has died out, even making it in the fastest time possible is gone. For newer players this might seem challenging, but for people who have played for any amount of months/time this is a quick chore.

 

-Monopolizing Gods- This is done as well. There is no competition when only one group will consistently and actively participate. 

 

-Monopolizing MVPs- The initial (major) profits made from camping certain MVPs is in the past. Most MVP loot is hard to even give away and anything "worth" much sells for dirt cheap. There is no competition because people have already done it (similar to gods) or there is nothing else to make the profit worth while from.

 

-Econs in WoE- I, personally, see no point in econing in WoE 1. It is much more profitable to take multiple forts. In WoE 2 if one guild econs up 1 castle, then the rest of the server can econ up the other 9 castles with limited interruptions. There isn't enough guilds/players to justify having competition evolving around econs, especially in WoE 1. The obvious exception is if guilds prefer to defend, which is fine but I see that more as the next bullet point then econs themselves.

 

-Fighting in WoE- This server had +50~100 people consistently (not like when we randomly decide to log on and go inside a guild) a few months ago. This population simply wanted to fight each other. There are now only 2 real "sides" to go to for WoE, if you want lol action. It's like the Persian army vs 10 Spartans. There is nobody worth while to fight on the server who can offer competition in the way that the guilds, who quit, want action. 

 

List goes on as well, but the main point is this....

 

The server has such a little active population and that is where all/most of the problems originate from. Whatever changes happen will lose more people, even if no actions are taken. The servers are very laggy, cheating is rampant right now, and who is going to join a server when there is only 1 "big guild" with the huge majority of god items in guild/could be in guild if they were asked for? Nobody that will bring organized play (which is required in RO) is going to look at this and say "hey, this is where I want to be. I can barely walk in WoE with 20 people in a castle because of the lag and that guild has more gods then players.". 

 

I want to be here and I want to see it succeed, but the problem of gods/woe "re balance" needs to be solved through anti-cheating, banning players for cheating, upgrade the hardware to hold more then 20 people in a castle without lagging, promote the server after making said fixes, and treat everybody the same. 

 

I am curious as to if the staff even knows why guilds quit and who told them the information about that. As stated well from somebody before, you need to know what the problem is before fixing it. Do you know why (staff) massive amounts of guild have quit over the years and why the playerbase dropped so much? If so, who told you that. Fixing those issues would be a good place to start and getting more then 1 person/side's input on why entire guilds quit would be rather important for you so you can fix actual issues that could (maybe) increase the population so all of these side effects of a low population can sort themselves out.


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#58 XStorm

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 02:32 PM

You said a lot of pretty good things but I'm going to cherry pick this one to reply to.
 
 
Here's the problem, with the current system (1.0) only VH are really capable of making items. It takes more effort than any of the other guilds are willing to put forth to actually get it done, we've been trying to lower the seal requirement to 50 since the very first thread. If you were to make it harder this doesnt change anything, VH will make their items and even less guilds will be interested in even undertaking the task. If you make it easier VH will make their items easier and more often but other guilds will actually have a chance to get their items made.
 
It really just depends on what the point of any changes are. VH will always have the most of everything on this server as things currently stand, as the most active guild with the most active/hardcore players they will achieve more than everyone else. If you want to make changes to stop people from getting discouraged when starting out, you probably need to make things easier. If you want to lower the overall god item to player ratio make it harder. Any change you make though will put people off and there's no right answer.

 
If (and this is a big if) god item creation was made easier, would a fair compromise be to compensate VH in some way? Not wanting to speculate on their work, but if they did work hard to gain a lead that they were under the impression would not be taken away, would it not be fair to ask what they would want to make easier creations less bitter to them? 
 
I assume VH will come back at this stating concerns over saturation. 
 
And about econ resets, should the same apply to Valkyrie and the potential loss of their econ? Should there be some kind of compensation or reward for having actually taken part in this and achieving that econ?
 

Gn1ydnu

cheating is rampant right now


I have seen less cheating recently than for a long time, that I don't notice it. What cheating are you talking about?


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#59 etansit

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 06:25 PM

Not everyone wants to play the game the same way as you guys, I know you're fairly new, but this has been an ongoing theme throughout most of the server. There has been a huge split between the hardcore players who will invest a lot of time/effort into getting things done and then everyone else. This isnt really a bad thing, but on a full server there would be multiple hardcore groups and multiple casual groups and they could mingle/fight/interact. But unfortunately we're now at a point where we've got one hardcore, one slightly less casual and then a handful of smaller casual guilds. If the CMs want to make any changes here someone's not going to like it but they have to decide which group of players they want to support for woe.

 

There's a lot of really amusing things to me in that and I dont want to turn it into a slapfest, but not every guild wants to be VH. We're happy logging on for our four hours of siege and during the week when we have time or something planned but none of us are looking for second jobs anymore, most of us have been there and done that. Will we be at a disadvantage because of it? You bet. Are we okay with that? You bet. We'll keep playing while we're still having fun.

 

Compromises are going to have to be made somewhere by either side to encourage more people to play/participate because eventually we're going to run out of players and it's very hard to get people to return to this server for any number of reasons.

Look at my profile and you'll notice I'm not as new as you think. Ignorance is no excuse for laziness. One thing that Gravity is doing great is the persistent shift towards customer feedback and evaluation in the 4 months already that I have returned. One way to bring back the people is to incentivize returning to classic. Lower the seals count, make the god item quest exponentially harder for experienced players. Problem solved. The higher your guild level, the harder the quest is to complete. Future God items bind for a set time. I can think of a million ideas and throw them out there. People are so content... no matter how many mistakes you make or how slow you progress, you are still way ahead of everyone who isn't trying. Suus 'non erucae scientiae. 


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#60 Tecmo

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 07:34 PM

Valk is done once the Econ wipe happens

(Mar 04)
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#61 kisai

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 07:57 PM

Valk is done once the Econ wipe happens

(Mar 04)

 

 

But what  if it gets burned first?


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#62 kisai

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 08:10 PM

Look at my profile and you'll notice I'm not as new as you think. Ignorance is no excuse for laziness. One thing that Gravity is doing great is the persistent shift towards customer feedback and evaluation in the 4 months already that I have returned. One way to bring back the people is to incentivize returning to classic. Lower the seals count, make the god item quest exponentially harder for experienced players. Problem solved. The higher your guild level, the harder the quest is to complete. Future God items bind for a set time. I can think of a million ideas and throw them out there. People are so content... no matter how many mistakes you make or how slow you progress, you are still way ahead of everyone who isn't trying. Suus 'non erucae scientiae. 

 

 

This isn't a bad idea, but rather easy to bypass, imo. I'd prefer the degree of difficulty increases based on how many items a guild already has. Perhaps we could explore ways to make it work?


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#63 queenmastersmith

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 10:50 PM

Valk is done once the Econ wipe happens

(Mar 04)

 

You guys afraid of competitive balance or something?


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#64 Xellie

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 11:09 PM

If the econ is such a big deal, why is everyone so busy caterwauling about my god items rather than problems that concern them directly?

 

If you put your own guild first over others, it tends to fare better.

 

edit:

people seem to misunderstand the situation a lot. VH's creations were mostly championed by a max of 5 people. Half the items we have created don't belong to us, but to PVMers.

Like all other guilds we go through ups and downs, we don't have many weekend warriors (which is great!) - but at one point the guild was entirely weekend warriors and it was miserable.

We haven't taken in mergers. We haven't purchased God Items. I have paid for exactly 3 MVP cards over the past 2 years. It's not as much as people seem  to think.

The majority of our members are old chaos / sakray players, or people new to iRO that I recruit via streaming. Atm I "play" during the week to pick up treasure and do Okolnir... sometimes I go to valk mvp if I'm awake.

And believe me that is enough RO in a day. Too much maybe. When Okolnir is done with I'll be glad to take time off before my daily hour of RO time is scheduled for doing seal quests.

 

It has been acknowledged a bunch of times in this thread that the god saturation is a result of drop rates. Let me tell you that uncompeted castles gaining random econ ADD TO THAT. It needs to stop. It should never have happened. I shouldn't have been able to get 17 hazy starlights in 2 weeks before even thinking about defending VF4.

 

Keep econs over X value, I'm going to suggest 85. Nuke everything else. Nuke mine too, I don't want it.


Edited by Xellie, 18 February 2015 - 11:38 PM.

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#65 Tecmo

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 02:07 AM

But what if it gets burned first?


It has nothing to do with our current Econ
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#66 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 02:09 AM

It has nothing to do with our current Econ

 

In that case, would you be able to explain your reasoning? Econ resets are good for long-term viability due to resetting the playing field.


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#67 Tecmo

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 02:15 AM

In that case, would you be able to explain your reasoning? Econ resets are good for long-term viability due to resetting the playing field.


It's more the gms are catering

Also the same thing can be said for God items
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#68 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 02:57 AM

It's more the gms are catering

Also the same thing can be said for God items

 

With regards to whom? The only guilds that have advocated a wipe have econ to lose, much like yourselves. Seasonal econ wipes (with prizes for high values at the end of each season iirc, which caters to people milking econ for their guild fund) are only beneficial to Classic's sustainability, not to mention the fun-factor in fighting other guilds as they attempt to push econ on prized forts back up instead of running around PvMing, breaking and burning. It also gives those newbie guilds everyone has been so fond of lately a decent chance, which is how the server grows.

 

As for gods, roll those seals and put some of your sets together. Vh seem to be able to do it.


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#69 XStorm

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:05 AM

It's more the gms are catering

Also the same thing can be said for God items

 

that's heavy....


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#70 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:18 AM

It's more the gms are catering

Also the same thing can be said for God items

 

Forgot to ask this and I really don't want to edit my old post for it since it'll probably be overlooked, not the latest after all XD

 

But what is it that you mean by catering? Just bending to the whims of a player or something? Does anyone even have that much power? Call me ignorant but nothing said about this whole econ wipe has been particularly provocative or singlehandedly responsible for the CMs' decision.


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#71 HansLowell

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 06:49 AM

Its alway the same thing anyway. Who've been asking for econ wipe? The answer is pretty easy to find. If people think it refresh woe at the current rate fine with them. I dont believe it at all. That whole thing doesnt make any sense for a guild "investing" It break the whole purpose of woeing. seriously if there is no castle with econs im just going to log at the end of woe the rest of the war is completely useless.


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#72 XStorm

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 07:10 AM

The point of econ is to build it and defend it not take it for free...


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#73 Flack

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 07:14 AM

I'm all for lowering the requirements to roll the seals to 50 people.  I don't think any guild should be compensated for creations prior to this change.  When this change was made on other servers before this one there was no compensation and it would bring about a lot of demand for compensation to other changes on this server.

 

An alternative would be to have a two method creation system which I think would breath some life into WoE1

 

First keep the seal stones but remove the quest portion of the current creation system.  Keep the ability to do quests in sequential order as you have it now. As before when the seals hit 100 an item can be made by the first person who makes it to the dwarf.  This would be creation method 1

 

The second method would be based on your success in WoE1 and be dependent on an econ'd castle.  Much like Okolnir you should require the castle to have 60 econ 40 def.  When a castle has this a guild leader can start the quest with a set of 50 seal stones form the seal quests.  The advantage to this would be an uncontested god item creation (use the current quest part or Okolnir).  

 

Constraints on the second method would be:

 

1) The cooldown on the quest would be 1 week which means you would have to successfully defend a castle again to create more items.

2) Enforce a harsh time limit probably start with 1 hour and maybe drop it to 30 mins allowed for the quest

 

Optional 

3) Link item creation to specific castles.  Some castles are incredibly easy to defend while others are not.  You can look at this to add more challenge to defending specific forts.  

 

 

Aside from the above I don't care if "Insert Guild Name" has 1 meg, 5 megs, or 100 megs.  The game is designed to have these items as an ultimate goal and its one of the only things that makes the official server different from any other private server.  

 

If you stop God Item production the gap of power will always be there.  A new guild will always be down x number of items regardless of their other equipment.  

 

I've seen limit the number of items in WoE.  I'd be ok with this I think this is a more reasonable solution.  

 

In summary I'd say don't change anything other than making creation of the god items more reasonable in relation to the server population.  

 


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#74 Necrohealiac

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 07:22 AM

Its alway the same thing anyway. Who've been asking for econ wipe? The answer is pretty easy to find. If people think it refresh woe at the current rate fine with them. I dont believe it at all. That whole thing doesnt make any sense for a guild "investing" It break the whole purpose of woeing. seriously if there is no castle with econs im just going to log at the end of woe the rest of the war is completely useless.

 
the fact is that currently there are econ'd castles that are completely ignored until the end of woe. you don't see that as a problem?
 

The point of econ is to build it and defend it not take it for free...


^^ this
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#75 XStorm

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 07:30 AM

 
the fact is that currently there are econ'd castles that are completely ignored until the end of woe. you don't see that as a problem?
 

^^ this

 

To expand on that; this is why econ prerequisites to 1.0 item creation is a bad idea.

 

There are too many pieces stockpiled and *certain* guilds have a habit of sniping econ whenever they please, and not defending for a second beforehand.

They would simply create multiple items from multiple ignored castles.


Edited by XStorm, 19 February 2015 - 07:32 AM.

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