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God Item Creation/WoE Rebalance


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#76 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 09:41 AM

There are too many pieces stockpiled and *certain* guilds have a habit of sniping econ whenever they please, and not defending for a second beforehand.

 

Buttflustered quit, so that shouldn't be a problem. With the addition to the ninja nerf to expanded classes, which makes me laugh oh so hard, it wont be that big of an issue. 


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#77 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 12:30 PM

Is champion nerf before or after MVP card nerf? <>

I am curious as to the ideas the gms have for gods/woe.


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#78 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 02:47 PM

It is funny how if the staff start pandering to the demands of certain people (the seals come to mind among other things) it's an issue. Yet if another group raises concerns about classic deviating too far from vanilla (oh yes, OP champ gear, save points allowing miracle abuse, seal changes) suddenly its "bias" or w/e word you want to use. I think it's amusing when this silliness comes from people who complain about Classic not being Classic enough.

 

That kind of activity has probably done the server more harm over the last years than good. I'm disappointed that the staff have not only allowed it to continue but are perfectly OK with players taking the flack for their mistakes, be it a bad change or their inability to explain why a change was made.

 

The server is in a bad place, stuff needs to change. People can't ask for changes because there is a group that stands against it without offering any real solutions to the issue, whilst another group are and have been allowed to spread toxicity in terms of made up bias claims. I'm tired of being told to sit and take it whilst  the staff let this stuff grow.

 

What was it that was said before this train-wreck began? That if the server failed it'd be the community's fault? I can see it. I think if Valk want to throw down indirect ultimatums, I'm happy to say now I don't think the server it big enough for the both of us if they are not willing to discuss some kind of changes to the problems. Obviously change is not needed because the server is doing sooooo well right now.

 

VH will quit due to GM apathy, Valk will quit if stuff changes? Ridiculous.

 

 


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#79 Phil

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 03:30 PM

When they made classic, they should have made it exactly like Valk server, minus the teleportation costs and other valk server specific changes in comparison to the pay-to-play servers and also no RE ofc.

 

That would have better in the first place imo because the reason why there was a cry for a classic server is (correct me if I'm wrong) not mainly because everyone wanted a fresh start nor new content(there is RE for that) but because Renewal WoE was bad so pretty much this server is mostly for WoE purposes. The fact that multiple skills and classes counter each other in WoE is what makes it fun and not just a zergfest, "who dcs first in a fort with 200 ppl", solo 1v1 plays like in RE woes. In fact the reason why I moved from RE to classic eventhough i had my investment on RE is because of WoE and my guildmates/friends

 

 

Source: Played renewal woes for mid/top tier guilds(both sides as well alliance wise) 3 years since it started, with a 99% attendance rate, on various jobs.


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#80 Divine

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 03:50 PM

Please stop trying to turn this into guild drama.

 

Valk is not quitting because of 'changes'. The leader disagrees with econ resets and implementing it without having any discussion beforehand (putting a date in the classic Road Map) is dumb. Valk has provided numerous solutions and agree with alot of things that people have said over the past months - years to improve Classic Server. They want changes to improve the server as a whole instead of people trying to counter a select class / person in WoE.

 

Solutions:

- Work harder on the Server transfers that were so hyped about before, I think alot of people are still interested in this.

- Keep up with the Turn-Ins. I dont know how Juperos TI is going, but my guildies have been doing Dragon parties every single day and have been helping many newbies lvl up. Spice it up and add an option to obtain Guild Supply Boxes instead of EXP so that it invokes more party play or players can sell GSB as a source of revenue (since the only way to get GSB is through Guild Dungeon / 1 MvP)

 

- In regards towards WoE -> Focus on what really matters: We dont want econ resets (screws over the work guilds have put in)

  • Look into the cheating : Nodelay, Portal Recalling, Botting
  • Fix loots : All the slotted armor/shoes/garments/shields are useless -> Put an exchange NPC to turn them into something useful (Elu, GSB)
  • Do constant checks for Duped MvP cards / +9 / +10 gears / Malangdo Enchanted Gears
  • Reduce # of castles (possibly) until Classic's population goes back up
  • Incentivize WoE : Someone suggested bragging rights for the top 3 guilds, give more reason for new guilds to participate
  • Guild Cap / Ally Reduction

 

 


Edited by Divine, 19 February 2015 - 03:51 PM.

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#81 Phil

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:31 PM

With regards to whom? The only guilds that have advocated a wipe have econ to lose, much like yourselves. Seasonal econ wipes (with prizes for high values at the end of each season iirc, which caters to people milking econ for their guild fund) are only beneficial to Classic's sustainability, not to mention the fun-factor in fighting other guilds as they attempt to push econ on prized forts back up instead of running around PvMing, breaking and burning. It also gives those newbie guilds everyone has been so fond of lately a decent chance, which is how the server grows.

 

As for gods, roll those seals and put some of your sets together. Vh seem to be able to do it.

"Gives newbie guilds a chance". How so? Assuming said newb guild gets all forts and tries to econ it, the top tier guilds will still steamroll the forts that they needed/wanted and start econing it up again while breaking the other forts just enough so other newbie guilds cant even econ. It doesn't provide a solution to "grow the server" nor promote competition. As someone said, proposed changes are too late, its a no-win scenario

 

This isn't a bad idea, but rather easy to bypass, imo. I'd prefer the degree of difficulty increases based on how many items a guild already has. Perhaps we could explore ways to make it work?

Was my initial idea as well, but the one you propose can also be bypassed by alt guilds instead :(


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#82 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:47 PM

Noob guilds shouldn't econ. I never econ and I have more gods than anyone. Anyone who encourages them to make themselves a target is advocating the worst possible action for them.

 

The reason we advocated econ wipes in the past was so that when the newbie guilds do get a drop, it's actually worth something. So they can grow. Econ is worthless.... Try to understand this. God parts are cheap and invaluable, ultimately saturation has hurt the "new" guilds badly. Before they could have sold the piece for X item to buy parts for Y item, but since even the randomest of WoE 1 castles have 30 econ+ some days (yes), they have no income.

 

Whilst other guilds may be ok with the rewards of WoE being as valuable as jellopy, it's extremely harmful to small guilds.

 

If "econ wipe" was the problem, people should have posted that they didn't want it / suggested alternatives, but instead they went for god items and bias cries. You'll get your concerns addressed in a reasonable manner if you actually voice your concerns, not pull these b**** ass "WAAAH BIAS I'M QUITTING" shenanigans

 

In order to be listened to, you have to speak.


Edited by Xellie, 19 February 2015 - 04:49 PM.

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#83 Rythen

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 05:14 PM

GMs should, I don't know, maybe communicate with their community about changes to help dispel the claims of bias?

I always find it really nice when GMs in a game decide to communicate with their users instead of seemingly going behind their backs and doing whatever the hell they wanted to first, it makes me feel a little more listened to rather than "we're going to ask, but in the end, do whatever we wanted to anyway."


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#84 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 05:20 PM

Strange.

 

Defended castle drops are rarer than random ones. You'd think econ would produce more, but the fact is defended castles get zero'd out more often.


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#85 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 07:39 PM

Please stop trying to turn this into guild drama.

 

Valk is not quitting because of 'changes'. The leader disagrees with econ resets and implementing it without having any discussion beforehand (putting a date in the classic Road Map) is dumb. Valk has provided numerous solutions and agree with alot of things that people have said over the past months - years to improve Classic Server. They want changes to improve the server as a whole instead of people trying to counter a select class / person in WoE.

 

You just turned it into guild drama with that last sentence bro.

 

Question tho, using League as an example. If a high ranked and respected player in LCS abuses the -_- out a broken mechanic (lets say improper scaling or something) in a champ and snowballs to victory based almost solely on abuse of said mechanic, the opposing team complains about it, and Riot nerfs the champ to prevent further abuse, would you say that Riot is then biased towards the small group of players that complained or is just enacting a balance patch to make other champs more comparatively viable? Of course the people abusing it wouldn't report it since it provides a clear benefit to them, and bystanders don't have enough of a voice to matter, but does failure to report or even mention it then constitute bias as only one party gave their opinion?

 

You guys ever heard of anti-fun patterns? Might be a good topic to look into.


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#86 squirreI

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 08:20 PM

Maybe most if not all of the proposed changes from now on should receive their own poll. Each change should have an OP describing it and its pros/cons brought up by the community. OP would be updated by a CM that reads through all of the nonsense (This thread is going nowhere).


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#87 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 08:30 PM

Maybe most if not all of the proposed changes from now on should receive their own poll. Each change should have an OP describing it and its pros/cons brought up by the community. OP would be updated by a CM that reads through all of the nonsense (This thread is going nowhere).

 

Big changes like that have all received their own threads and progress reports, often with updates to cater to opinion by the CMs. The problem needs to be addressed within the community, who tend more towards attacking players rather than ideas, offering opinions without evidence, offering no opinion at all and then complaining when the CMs didn't read their minds, and just acting contrarian because the status quo is god.

 

There is almost no friendly debating on this forum. It all ends up as he said she said bias accusations.

 

It's really little wonder the CMs don't listen to us half the time. We all sound like a bunch of squawking idiots and nothing even remotely constructive is uttered from anyone's mouth without a backstab thrown in for good measure, which completely invalidates anything we might have had to say.


Edited by queenmastersmith, 19 February 2015 - 08:53 PM.

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#88 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 09:01 PM

The "saturation" is all within a single guild as Divine has mentioned. They *only* have 5 megs of there own, yet borrow and use an additional 5 from other guilds that have quit or players who have personal gods. That is 10 megs alone being used in a single guild, that is more then all of the other WoE 1 god items combined in the rest of the server. I am not putting down that guild, they worked very very hard<> to obtain a monopoly on god items. That should be rewarded.

 

Limiting the rest of the server to catch up is just as bad.

 

Well, Oda editted it out, but this guy said something about coincidental bans around the time of the first god creation. (Related to the mail exploits, that's why the mail was shut down FYI!)

-Less biased people with form power / more in game access.

 

Fixing those issues would be a good place to start and getting more then 1 person/side's input on why entire guilds quit would be rather important for you so you can fix actual issues that could (maybe) increase the population so all of these side effects of a low population can sort themselves out.

 

It's more the gms are catering

Also the same thing can be said for God items

 

Its alway the same thing anyway. Who've been asking for econ wipe? The answer is pretty easy to find. If people think it refresh woe at the current rate fine with them. I dont believe it at all. That whole thing doesnt make any sense for a guild "investing" It break the whole purpose of woeing. seriously if there is no castle with econs im just going to log at the end of woe the rest of the war is completely useless.

 

When people dont do good in woe, the solution is to go cry to GM.

 

Champion nerf is soon!

 

Is champion nerf before or after MVP card nerf? Cater server to one group/person and then be confused on why population is low...

I am curious as to the ideas the gms have for gods/woe.

 

They want changes to improve the server as a whole instead of people trying to counter a select class / person in WoE.

 

The problem is, this behavior right here. The CMs/GMs have the ability to reply and explain why they follow through with certain ideas or respond to certain reports.

 

I COULD pull the bias card too, let's think.... deleted characters being removed from guild rosters? Not being allowed feedback on how seal quests should be wiped so that people couldn't ninja the quest? (the problem they were supposed to fix). I can talk about how a certain guildleader was defending nodelay till he was blue in the face on the forum here, and then was shown to be using it. Rather than being told to not do that again, or receiving any kind of warning the whole idea of policing no delay was shut right down. Oh did I "defame" you? I reported you. Repeatedly. Nothing happened. Bias card played.

 

Now understand I just said all that as an example. I could play this game all day, but I don't. It's not productive.

 

So I showed Oda this whole thread and I said hey Oda, you know what? If you guys explain why you do things, I won't have to take the blame for it. Instead you allow and fuel bias claims. Not a single staff member said a word. The community can't even discuss a compromise. I'm sure that if my name was Doddler and I was posting about things I thought were wrong with Classic there may not be a second thought given.

 

The server is practically dead and people defend the status quo as if it's good. WAKE UP! ITS NOT.

 

Want some more problems other than the staff showing complete ineptitude to work with their community? How about how nobody ever gets done for autopot, or how there's all these quiet yes/no/it's ok situations regarding GRF editting? The only people to mention cheating so far in this thread cheat pretty hard themselves. And everyone who cried about bias? Go start posting your suggestions instead of expecting the staff to be psychic. Maybe troll less and bait less for drama and maybe they'll know you're capable of making a serious post. When all you ever post is lies or trolling, they won't listen. If you make a half hearted post whimpering "don't do that" they need to know why.

 

It's not rocket science people.  Work with the staff and hey guess what staff? TALK TO YOUR USERBASE.


Edited by Xellie, 19 February 2015 - 10:26 PM.

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#89 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 09:54 PM

So I showed Oda this whole thread and I said hey Oda, you know what? If you guys explain why you do things, I won't have to take the blame for it. Instead you allow and fuel bias claims. Not a single staff member said a word. The community can't even discuss a compromise.

They should explain why. There are many cases where it comes off as only benifiting one person/group. See the ninja nerf from nowhere to ruin an entire class in woe, which only we run efficiently. Limiting God items after one group has a monopoly and the means (if they really wanted/have done in the past) to obtain 10 megs. Econ wiping when other groups have been protesting that vocally for a long time. The list goes on. I do not blame you xellie, in fact I don't blame anybody. I think that the staff has better relations with a couple people and get their feedback, then make adjustmits based on that alone. That is the issue, it APPEARS one sided.

Solution, transparency. Why econ wipe? What suddenly caused the staff to want to limit Gods now after there is a skew in ownership? Why does the staff want to nerf MVP cards which would hurt a single group, at the time of posting? I do not care about what players assume staff says, I would like to know from the staff and WHERE/HOW they determine what things to do, because things aren't adding up. I am not alone with this and dozens upon dozens upon dozens of friends, rivals, guildies, and aquatences have quit because of the lack of transparency.

How about how nobody ever gets done for autopot, or how there's all these quiet yes/no/it's ok situations regarding GRF editting? The only people to mention cheating so far in this thread cheat pretty hard themselves.

I brought up cheating and I refrain from it. In fact I guild kicked people solely based on you saying they "might be" cheating, the last time I lead a guild here. so I am actually quite offended by that statement.

I do use noshake, which was provided to me on your forums and I was shown a response to a ticket saying that you wot get in trouble for using it. That is not "hard cheating" anymore then using rcx.

Edit: I should add, I don't think you should take it all personally. I am trying to sum up the problem (on my phone in bed so it's hard) as a transparency issue where things seem to appear one sided. Getting answers from other players about staff means nothing. Staff not answering the whys it who's just makes things appear worse. key word with all of this is "appears". I can't be bothered to caps lock it all for emposis on my phone, sorry.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 19 February 2015 - 10:02 PM.

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#90 squirreI

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:02 PM

Edit: Nevermind. Just don't use ninja to describe that. People will think you're talking about the ninja class.


Edited by squirreI, 19 February 2015 - 10:04 PM.

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#91 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:13 PM

This is why there's a problem.

 

The "skew" in ownership WILL NEVER CHANGE. Get that out of your head, I have at this current time 2 sets one piece from completion, 1 complete set of my own, 1 I am purchasing from a guildie and 2 of a friends that I can make for usage. I do not think the speed at which any other guild can create is going to change the "skew" in ownership, if vh can continue to create at the same rate as everyone else.

Valhalla is a big guild. Bigger than the others. We have people / contacts, time, effort, zeny. You name it. I forget if it was flack or themes, but they pointed out yes, we will always be ahead because of the people, not the server conditions.

 

Regarding the TKM; you know as well as anyone else, that at least 3 VH members own WoE TKMs. They came back recently and we were going to run them in sandstorm. We had a discussion on vent about whether or not it was a heavy exploit as you're talking about doubling damage on all classes and emperiums, when a lot of expanded class skills are carefully nerfed to avoid them being overpowered (the removal of heat damage, doubled cast times, altered shadow leap). The fact is, establishing miracle as is is technically a bug.

What did we say about it? Why wasn't the WoE TKM a "thing" on old  servers? Because save points. Someone in guild reported it. Yeah it upset some of us as well, but it was well intentioned.

 

Nerfing MVP cards? The staff didn't even say WHICH mvp cards they are going after, could it be my guild's plethora of GTBs that everyone claims we have? It is possible. I didn't speculate. <sarcasm> I heard hibram cards do mad damage to gtb users. I also heard they bypass AR </sarcasm> VH has MVP cards, and we rely on them pretty heavily, JUST FOR YOUR INFO.

 

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your copremesis, as that's way off beat. But the point is, I am tired of you reading bias into everything, I used to think you were just trolling, but it doesn't really seem that way anymore.


Edited by Xellie, 19 February 2015 - 10:14 PM.

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#92 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:20 PM

Imposing limits on creation has always been an issue to the CMs. Has been since the first god was created and all the QQ began.

 

MVPs kill competition and have always done so, all through the history of both iRO and RO in general. The nerfs aren't designed to target a specific group of players, but that same group were the people who called attention to it by using them. If it was anyone else, bias accusations would be leveled at a different set of people but the circumstances would be the same. This is all assuming they're going after the FoTM FBH, but god knows what's actually on the agenda.

 

Econ wiping has been a topic for aaaaaaaaaaages. Look through the Classic Maint threads and you'll find all manner of different people from different sometimes opposed guilds talking about rampant econ creep and how annoying it is to take it upon oneself to burn it all down.

 

Is every little thing bias to you guys? o.O It's like you can't come up with a rational argument so you all fall back on something that works and has precedent to stifle the creative process.


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#93 HansLowell

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:25 PM

The problem is, this behavior right here. let's think.... deleted characters being removed from guild rosters?.
You must be joking there. I reported this cause its the most disgusting bug exploit ever on the game, I was not even sure I wanted to continue playing when I understood it. Seriously if you know that thing to all his extend and used it to some point. You should be banned and all your char delete and im not even joking on that.

 

Infinite stats, infinite recall, RWC bug. seriously we did none of that bull-_- and that kind of thing want to make me vomit. But call us cheater


Edited by HansLowell, 19 February 2015 - 10:25 PM.

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#94 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:29 PM

You must be joking there. I reported this cause its the most disgusting bug exploit ever on the game, I was not even sure I wanted to continue playing when I understood it. Seriously if you know that thing to all his extend and used it to some point. You should be banned and all your char delete and im not even joking on that.

 

Infinite stats, infinite recall, RWC bug. seriously we did none of that bull-_- and that kind of thing want to make me vomit. But call us cheater

 

 

catering. It isn't a new bug or exploit. It only got reported because someone thought we did it to raid nid 3 and posted a video, when it wasn't anything like that at all.

 

 

 

 

Tho wow, I never did think it could be used to that extent. That's kind of enlightening. How do you get infinite stats out of that bug? Don't you woe with people who abused that for RWC? Recall has a 5 min cool down I'm really confused by what you think is possible.

 

p.s: bro, why you care if we break our own castle?

 

 


Edited by Xellie, 19 February 2015 - 10:35 PM.

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#95 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:35 PM

Is every little thing bias to you guys? o.O It's like you can't come up with a rational argument so you all fall back on something that works and has precedent to stifle the creative process.


Not at all. If your couldn't read it, transparenxy is an issue and thing appear a certain way. Doesn't mean it is, but some clarity and concrete answers would surely help resolve that.

At Xellie about tkm thing. It was done on previous servers. In fact the video I posted years ago that got my Undying account banned was of a tkm on Loki. It was always a thing but it wasn't always an option on classic because people didn't want to put so much gods/MVPs on extended classes. Once we were able to get the nessesarily items we could run it efficently.

So yes, it was done in the past. No, it's not a real bug. We all know the track record of the people that handle tickets...
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#96 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:41 PM

Not at all. If your couldn't read it, transparenxy is an issue and thing appear a certain way. Doesn't mean it is, but some clarity and concrete answers would surely help resolve that.

At Xellie about tkm thing. It was done on previous servers. In fact the video I posted years ago that got my Undying account banned was of a tkm on Loki. It was always a thing but it wasn't always an option on classic because people didn't want to put so much gods/MVPs on extended classes. Once we were able to get the nessesarily items we could run it efficently.

So yes, it was done in the past. No, it's not a real bug. We all know the track record of the people that handle tickets...

 

Yes do go ahead and ignore my entire post except that one line you cherrypicked to prove your point :happy:

 

uDy99GO.png


Edited by queenmastersmith, 20 February 2015 - 05:07 AM.

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#97 Xellie

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:41 PM

No Alex, you're someone who should know better, but you continually just go at it to be hurtful.

 

If you wanna get into it, making miracle off talkie boxes is an exploit too............ just nobody has ever reported it because everyone uses it. Just think about where this conversation is headed for a second.

 

Also sightblaster heuheuheuheue they should unnerf those items, I'll play with that all day. B> +10 eraser.


Edited by Xellie, 19 February 2015 - 10:42 PM.

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#98 queenmastersmith

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:43 PM

No Alex, you're someone who should know better, but you continually just go at it to be hurtful.

 

If you wanna get into it, making miracle off talkie boxes is an exploit too............ just nobody has ever reported it because everyone uses it. Just think about where this conversation is headed for a second.

 

Also sightblaster heuheuheuheue

 

-_-ing bias.


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#99 Kuej

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:27 AM

None of these changes suggested would increase the population anyway. No point arguing better just enjoy the server as it is before its merged into renewal.

 

No idea why even call the server classic when it has so many custom things and pay to win. I bet without pay to win crap like bubble gum and vip there wouldn't be as many god items / mvp cards and we wouldn't have this problem.


Edited by Kuej, 20 February 2015 - 10:36 AM.

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#100 Necrohealiac

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:13 AM

None of these changes suggested would increase the population anyway. No point arguing better just enjoy the server as it is before its merged into renewal.


lol loki merging with chaos?

tighten those sphincters y'all
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