We got 3.8k players, and 150 in WoE. If PvM people wanted to play WoE we would already have LOADS of new WoE guilds, which clearly isn't the case.
The people that would be interested in WoE are:
Someone that've played and WoEd a lot back then and now he's looking for the "old glory days".
Guilds and Players from another Official Servers that are dying and found in iRO their home.
People that starts to play RO because it's kawaii-desu or have cute hats won't be interested in WoE and if they are, the skillcap will push them back, since WoE is a very complex feature. If you want new players to play in WoE, create a guide, ask for a tutorial or whatever.
That would be nice but people still complain about their PVM guilds being limited, even though most don't even come close to reaching the cap with actual players.
Too bad we couldn't have 2 versions of guild extension. One for woe guilds and one for pvm guilds and once you put points into one you can't put points into the other. Make it where you need to have the woe extension to break emps or something.
I will say one thing from my observation of last few weeks in woe 1. LYC 2 came back creating competition to smaller guilds senergia, CS, and smokies. We did a gvg vs CS one woe where both sides were very even. CS I think had around 15 people. Next week after that gvg CS jumped up in members participated in woe around 20 people. Senergia has been same way jumped up in # after having some good wars. If you fix the fun status for people others will join its only natural.
I won't say we have saved woe or anything but we have made stable competition for guilds who have had none. There only option was to do a team effort in others. We have created more ability for big guilds to fight there 1v1 fights. I remember before that there was lack of gvg, now with gvg happening more often we look toward no other guilds to fight I mean with 7 woe guilds what can you do? We really need to make to where more incentives to make a guild.
The way I see it is this. If we don't make it easier to get supplies and keep guild running we will never increase our population. Yes some may say easy mode or what not but I would rather have a populated woe with surplus in supplies and competition.
Hello guys, i'll introduce myself here for the sake of the conversation.
I'm Crime, a bRO player, active in WoE since 2008 (pre-renewal), then renewal WoE from 2011 to present. I visited iRO in the beginning of 2014, got to a low level Arch Bishop, then quit. Came back to WoE because BR players from LR invited me. I was also a leadership member at some guilds at bRO, and am currently Leader of a Block in bRO (the concept is players that exceed the ALT+Z 12 number but don't WoE solo, instead join a guild). Nice to meet you all.
Those things above are really important to be said, as my case is an exception, compared to most players, because at the same time i'm really cognitive about bRO's scenario, I could see iRO's with "fresh" and "innocent" eyes.
So, because many people have brought up many perspectives, i'll add up my own, which is: The problems being brought up here are global.
bRO's castle changes occurred about in the beginning~middle to 2013.
So, i'll address lots of things, basically spam ideas that are currently on my mind.
First of all, we have a critical problem at >RAGNAROK ONLINE<. It is an MMORPG, with a lot of Farming, Quests, PvM in general. Yet, Ragnarok's most appealing feature is WoE, which is in general a completely end game scenario of play. When you think of it on paper, RO is absolutely perfect. Not only you have a really complete game to develop and master your character, have fun with PvM and Quests, when you achieve the "end", you can't get the feeling of absence of stuff to do, because technically it's when you have your gears and your levels that the game starts. WoE is a real powerhouse in the sense that it can make the game eternal. And still not be "superficial" as MOBA's tend to be.
The problem with this concept is that if it gets a bad balance, it begins a cycle of self-destruction:
If PvM gets boring, people won't bother to level that much. If they don't level that much, they won't get recruited, and won't WoE. This makes the WoE scene untouchable, which is what happens to iRO at the moment. Some people don't join WoE because of how much work it takes. >I AM< an example of that. I won't bother to level up a personal character in iRO. What makes me an exception is that i was able to achieve a character from guildies at LR. If i was on my own, it wouldn't even occur to me even coming back to iRO, and this has nothing to do with my skills, or my capability to gear myself, or my WoE Time. It was also in a sense easier in the past, because well... the highest level was 99. There was no trans. There was no 3rd. There was no update from 150 to 160, and no update from 160 to 175.
The game has a lot of Private Server players because it takes away a lot of weight in the farm issue, making it WoE-oriented.
On the other hand, if WoE gets boring, people >WILL< evade the game. MOBA's are growing up. Game applications on smartphones are growing. FACE THE REALITY: MMO's need to MAINTAIN their players and still INCREASE their players. People's attention spams are, as lots of psychological tests are being made and remade, getting shorter and shorter. People will play 5k games of LoL, because LoL is a single world that lasts 40 minutes. What makes MMORPG like RO last is the fact that, as stated above, it gives you a permanent perspective on things to do when you wrap up your character. It is not Pokémon Yellow. Another thing: WoE is HARD. It may not seem that much, but if you want an example, try to explain a new player how does a Shadow Chaser work, without him having any prior RO experience. Now try to remember when the GAME teaches a player how to use a Shadow Chaser? It does not. The game also does not, during PvM, during Quests, teach you the difference between Group A songs and Group B songs (referring to Maestro and Wanderer), where the entire sinergy between these two classes depend on knowing that.
iROwiki is a blessing. Trust me, it is a >blessing< that you guys at least have something like that. We had bROwiki (it got attacked by some hacking-stuff), and it had a bright future, but it was a lot behind.
Then, i see people complaining about iROwiki's lack of information. Are they wrong? OF COURSE NOT. RO is a reeeeeally long and complex game, where the sometimes the challenge to actually learn how the game and the skills work is absurdly great. It's almost as if they are trying to prevent you from playing it efficiently. It lacks skill description, equipment description. I glanced over WoW once and i knew i could have a solid beginning even before entering the game.
The game has a lot of PvE guilds and players because it takes away the pressure of being constantly well informed and well geared to WoE issue, making it farm-oriented.
Kami's topic addressed Lag, No Incentive, No competition and No goal. I personally won't address Cheating because not only i'm not familiar with iRO's scenario on it, I can say that, at least 3rd party progam-wise, bRO is fairly well protected.
Lag
We have a similar situation at bRO: We have there 3 servers, and i'll provide a recent WoE video from each one.
Odin (2007~), the merge between Loki + Chaos + Iris (2004). Is lacking new players because Thor absorbs mostly everything. NO LAG in WoE. ->
Thor (2008~), the god of MvP cards, that makes pRO seems balanced. LAG in WoE -> (Where I play)
Asgard (2013~ middle), a fresh server, that has already become a Wasteland of only WoE. To build this server, get 2 guilds that hate each other's guts, and lock them inside a castle. Is lacking new players because Thor absorbs mostly everything.NO LAG in WoE. ->
No competition. To be honest, the only reason why we log FAAAAAR more guilds into WoE than iRO is because the fighting for the sale of fighting gets attention around here. People love drama and flaming each other around here. Also, there are lots of... not bad.. let's say... exotic guilds that accept 110+ level players and don't incentive the players to level and become better. Once this is over, we'll also have a huge Thor crisis on it.
The no incentive part really crushed bRO Thor. Let me keep you informed that there was once an alliance that joined FOURTEEN guilds to protect Syr (Valf... ????? It's the castle at bottom west side of Valfreyja).
There was also a giant fight between 2 allies (together they were adding about... 250 players) in Brit 4. These allies also fought against each other at Nid 5.
I however can't relate much to iRO's leader issues, because being a leader of a terrible guild is quite easy, and this happens a lot to bRO (specially Thor). Unlike what Kami said, the culture here doesn't revolve the Leader supplying for his members. Usually the gleaders that do it are really bad at doing it, so it's not very noticeable. In the high level guilds, everyone pays for what they use. The exceptions come when we're talking about ressing players, where the leader usually grants them gears and stuffs. I didn't get to see this happening at iRO much, but it's quite common at bRO: to bring back old and not enthusiasted-enough players because even them are better than relying on the future generations of players.
My opinion on all of this, is actually quite simple:
We need to BRING more players and HOLD them. If what i stated above is correct (The PvE and WoE cycle), then we should correct both of them, but, in the end, try to save WoE scenario harder than PvM. PvM exists in 4343898439483 MMO's, WoE is only at RO.
To translate PvM's impact onto WoE experience:
- Enhance the player's ability by creating monsters that are challenging, but also have the dynamics of damage reduction by WoE gears, etc.
- Make the access of quests of dungeons etc easier.
- Improve level experience players receive
- Improve Skill/Build info database.
- ADVERTISE. BETTER. Let's have better publicity, simple as that. I'm tired of having millions of people that answer me "I used to play RO", instead of "I play RO".
Too bad we couldn't have 2 versions of guild extension. One for woe guilds and one for pvm guilds and once you put points into one you can't put points into the other. Make it where you need to have the woe extension to break emps or something.
they could make it so by leveling guild approval you are a woe guild by leveling it again it will extend your member count by 60 in exchange for no longer being able to enter woe or gvg related maps its what the taiwanese servers do and works good
Edited by needmorezleep, 12 November 2015 - 01:38 PM.
You can't keep going around blaming guildleaders man. I didn't ask to have the biggest guild on Classic and it was never my aim. My aim was just to provide the people I play with everything they needed to have fun.
I certainly didn't "ruin" it, for all you're saying. There was a long long time where my guild had only 12 people and we fought against alliances of 3x 20 guilds and they would smash us with the other side attacking us too. Sometimes we did what we had to in order to survive - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and if you attack a 12 man guild with an alliance for weeks, they are going to go find some friends. I worked very hard to build Valhalla to be what it is as everyone seemed to sideline us from the get go.
......
Sry Xellie, my english is lack, can't find the correct word to express what i was gonna say. can i use "rule" instead? XD
I have not read this whole thread, so past the initial few posts, I don't know how much of what I'll write below has already been brought up. I may retread a lot of covered ground.
I do think it's long past time to revise WoE fort treasures. But unfortunately, this has been talked about for years, with no action taken.
I mean, a slotted mant was leet over a decade ago, but is now superseded by frikkin EDEN GEARS, of all things. The whole point to having gear drop from castles back then was to help a guild better gear up its members for WoE. So a logical change would be for WoE Set armors to drop instead. A slotted mant should be replaced by a WoE Mant, a Field Plate [1] replaced by a WoE Plate [1], a Silk Robe [1] by WoE Robe [1], and so on and so forth. Perhaps something like a 5~10% chance to drop a WoE armor from a WoE treasure box would be reasonable. People who do WoE investment for these armors would whine (not that you even see many on the market these days...), but if that happens, then the logical fix would be to make them a rarer drop from investment, in order to preserve their 'rarity' and worth on the market.
Furthermore, there should be a chance to drop certain Bellum Weapons (at a lower rate than the WoE armors though) and the lowest drop rates would be on the most valuable of Bellum Weapons. Can you imagine the joy and celebration some small, newish guild would have if a Bellum Katzbalger or Bellum Claw dropped from one of their treasure boxes? It could really turn the tide in their next WoE battle. Items like these would need to be no greater than roughly a 0.2% drop rate (one in five hundred) from WoE treasure boxes. It might be similar to the joy a guild might have felt back in the day when a god item piece dropped.
Additional options could be certain Shadowgears, like Cranial Shadow Shield, Hard Shadow Armor, etc would also be potentially good candidates. Again, though, at a very low rate, especially since those are Kafra shop items (although +10 foods are KP items too, but can also be made in-game, so it's not without precedent). One still must upgrade them after all, so it's not like Warp Portal would lose much money if they did this. If anything, it would encourage more people to get involved with Shadow Gear upgrading, giving WP more cash in the long run.
Basically, any gear like the above which can make some difference in WoE would potentially be a good candidate to drop from castle treasure boxes, with increasing rarity depending upon their usefulness and with an eye towards preserving the value of those items on the market.
We got 3.8k players, and 150 in WoE. If PvM people wanted to play WoE we would already have LOADS of new WoE guilds, which clearly isn't the case.
The people that would be interested in WoE are:
Someone that've played and WoEd a lot back then and now he's looking for the "old glory days".
Guilds and Players from another Official Servers that are dying and found in iRO their home.
People that starts to play RO because it's kawaii-desu or have cute hats won't be interested in WoE and if they are, the skillcap will push them back, since WoE is a very complex feature. If you want new players to play in WoE, create a guide, ask for a tutorial or whatever.
ding dong, i dont belong to both categories. i am like foxy, i do woe for fun and to spend time with my guildies.to cater the satisfaction of that kind of woe player it should be more of lag reduction and leader incentive to keep the guild alive so you have something to fight for. well, at least for me
It doesn't matter how much a leader pays out for supplies in WOE, but is very costly, so it's great for a leader to help out. Guild members should be WoEing for fun, to help out the guild and their friends, and to achieve the goals of the guild. But right now, there hardly is any goals to achieve, and lesser of an incentive for a guild leader to keep recruiting, and maintain a costly big guild. Because there are no goals, there is no reason for people to actually WoE either, aside from killing people and having fun. But that can only keep WoE alive for a limited period of time.
Like if you asked my members why we WOE, it would mainly be for: the people in guild, for fun and for me.
Totally understand how hard and how stressful it is supplying guild member every week. Currently most of the guild members are WoEing for fun, and they are willing to use their own supplies too. But fun can't stand too long, if their is no incentive beside of fun, ppl will quit eventually. I've been WoEing for 2 years, now ive reached my limit.
most guilds that average 25-30 members online for WoE, have even that much because they have alts in the guild. There is seriously nooo reason to have a guild cap so large which hardly anyone can even reach it.
Hmm. Another problem is lack of classes that are useful in woe. Not many people would want to play woe if all they like to play is let's say ninja and all the guilds shove em off and give him/her the finger and say no play another class. Where's the fun in that when u force other people to play classes they don't even want to play as well? I'm not going to say any of u all are wrong but, this also is a issue. And also a reason why some people just don't want to woe or even bother. Which could result in less people working as well.
TU tu ru!
Edited by ShinobiEX3, 12 November 2015 - 05:39 PM.
Just wanted to point one thing out, from my guild's perspective (we've been WoEing consistently since 2008?):
Incentive for WoEing doesn't have anything to do with the current state of WoE, imo. I don't think that anybody outside of WoE suppliers even cares about castle drops or god item pieces. The server has too many items as it is, in addition to duped MVPs that I'm certain have yet to be found. The last thing that we need is more god items flowing around. The server is small and it will most likely always be small. Throwing more items at the problem doesn't help anybody. I think that we'd all be much better off if there were none (dare I say, no god items or MVPs for all WoEs!?!?! ). That would make it easier for newer guilds, if they were able to find people, to get integrated into the WoE scene: if they didn't have to go up against guilds that have been farming items since WoE started. But yea, there's a whole lot of drama associated with that suggestion, so we can let that one be.
One thing that makes WoE so damn boring for me is the fact that we've been fighting the same guilds for the past several years and it just gets old literally seeing the same faces 3x a week.
Want more people to WoE? Want more people to make guilds and fight? Make WoE free to some extent. Throw some NPC up that sells the common WoE items for like 1z: Slims and blues (I guess unranked slims and unranked blues so you don't completely destroy the potting market), speeds, etc. It'll hurt the people that farm WoE items and sell them, but they'll find other ways to make a profit. We're trying to fix WoE anyways - not find new ways to make people rich on a server that has a dying WoE scene.
For a new guild to start up right now, they most likely won't have a ranked potter, so they're gonna have to spend a ton on WoE supplies. You're heading uphill on day 1. If WoE was free, you could literally have new WoE guilds popping up every single WoE. There'd be no reason not to WoE. What would you lose?
Edit: I think it'd be worth a shot to try both of the suggestions above for a month or two and see how things change. Then revert if it's a bomb.
I... don't think shutting down several markets (less so for potting) is the answer. Fixing one problem with causing another isn't exactly what I call ideal. I do think the barrier of entry should be lowered (it's too hard to supply a guild, and if you don't supply them, you don't get members) but there has to be some other solution.
One thing that makes WoE so damn boring for me is the fact that we've been fighting the same guilds for the past several years and it just gets old literally seeing the same faces 3x a week.
Just wanted to point one thing out, from my guild's perspective (we've been WoEing consistently since 2008?):
Incentive for WoEing doesn't have anything to do with the current state of WoE, imo. I don't think that anybody outside of WoE suppliers even cares about castle drops or god item pieces. The server has too many items as it is, in addition to duped MVPs that I'm certain have yet to be found. The last thing that we need is more god items flowing around. The server is small and it will most likely always be small. Throwing more items at the problem doesn't help anybody. I think that we'd all be much better off if there were none (dare I say, no god items or MVPs for all WoEs!?!?! ). That would make it easier for newer guilds, if they were able to find people, to get integrated into the WoE scene: if they didn't have to go up against guilds that have been farming items since WoE started. But yea, there's a whole lot of drama associated with that suggestion, so we can let that one be.
One thing that makes WoE so damn boring for me is the fact that we've been fighting the same guilds for the past several years and it just gets old literally seeing the same faces 3x a week.
Want more people to WoE? Want more people to make guilds and fight? Make WoE free to some extent. Throw some NPC up that sells the common WoE items for like 1z: Slims and blues (I guess unranked slims and unranked blues so you don't completely destroy the potting market), speeds, etc. It'll hurt the people that farm WoE items and sell them, but they'll find other ways to make a profit. We're trying to fix WoE anyways - not find new ways to make people rich on a server that has a dying WoE scene.
For a new guild to start up right now, they most likely won't have a ranked potter, so they're gonna have to spend a ton on WoE supplies. You're heading uphill on day 1. If WoE was free, you could literally have new WoE guilds popping up every single WoE. There'd be no reason not to WoE. What would you lose?
Edit: I think it'd be worth a shot to try both of the suggestions above for a month or two and see how things change. Then revert if it's a bomb.
Sure it does. The people who currently WoE are those who are after god pieces or just after some fun times, there are plenty of people out there who just don't see the point as there is no personal benefits and others who just don't enjoy RO PVP in general.
Tbh, it's the selfishness that the community exhibits at times that will prevent anything from really coming out of any of these threads. We (Animosity) have tons of god items and MVPs that could rot in storage for all that I care if it meant that we'd have more action in WoE. A little less CC + 1 shot skills from OP decked out classes and a little more organization.
"What about my items that I worked hard for?" "What about my zeny making system that gets me billions every week?" "None of this will work because it affects my RO ezmode farming experience". #rip
Since the time of Tanya's old thread, I always insisted on disabling MVPs and Gods for many times. No matter how tempting incentives seem to be, no new guilds will ever last to become a newly established guild because in the end, new players will realize that they'll never be able to fight old established guilds that filled with skilful players (from WoE experiences) and luxury items (MVPs and Gods). If they work hard, they might be able to make one god but then they'll realize other old established guilds make two or three gods.
I might as well ask what is the purpose of implementing WoE sets. Is it because too many MVPs and Gods in WoE? If this is the reason why WoE sets ever existed, have you ever thought of new players who dont have any OP gears and how they will deal with WoE sets and all reductions?
Tbh, it's the selfishness that the community exhibits at times that will prevent anything from really coming out of any of these threads. We (Animosity) have tons of god items and MVPs that could rot in storage for all that I care if it meant that we'd have more action in WoE. A little less CC + 1 shot skills from OP decked out classes and a little more organization.
"What about my items that I worked hard for?" "What about my zeny making system that gets me billions every week?" "None of this will work because it affects my RO ezmode farming experience". #rip
You can always do (for now), what anyone does in a RPG environment when the current state is to easy, and make it harder for yourself?
Hell, you could always help train up new members with the intent of forging new guilds in the future.
Edited by Nirvanna21, 12 November 2015 - 06:58 PM.
Tbh, it's the selfishness that the community exhibits at times that will prevent anything from really coming out of any of these threads. We (Animosity) have tons of god items and MVPs that could rot in storage for all that I care if it meant that we'd have more action in WoE. A little less CC + 1 shot skills from OP decked out classes and a little more organization.
"What about my items that I worked hard for?" "What about my zeny making system that gets me billions every week?" "None of this will work because it affects my RO ezmode farming experience". #rip
Man I love where you are going with this. I would like to at least switch off weeks with or without. Having an Econ defending 1 week with next week without sounds very fun (monthly would be cool as well).
The idea of having an npc with woe supplies only able to work in woe realms/ pvp maps would be so cool to see. Have them have the same effect as woe whites and blues. This would prevent abuse outside of woe. The npc could Be something that comes on 1 hour before woe and leave when woe ends.
Having new people get acquainted with woe scenes rather then make assumptions from forum opinion.
This topic is locked
). That would make it easier for newer guilds, if they were able to find people, to get integrated into the WoE scene: if they didn't have to go up against guilds that have been farming items since WoE started. But yea, there's a whole lot of drama associated with that suggestion, so we can let that one be.
