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#101 Ashuckel

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:01 PM

2nd


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#102 Campitor

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:03 PM

Does that mean extended zoom = illegal

or does it mean increase in zoom is legal, unless it increases render range of players/ npc's?

 

Don't change the render range of the game.


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#103 KriticalAssassin

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:12 PM

Don't change the render range of the game.

So zoom is fine unless it allows you to actually render the players and npc's, got it.


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#104 Campitor

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:15 PM

So zoom is fine unless it allows you to actually render the players and npc's, got it.

Clarified the post.


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#105 Xellie

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 12:00 PM

So my issue here is that the left hand and the right hand don't seem to be talking to eachother.

 

The way in which GMs handle these infractions varies based on who is handling it and who the player involved is. For example, I was changing passwords of guild accounts last night and I found an email from the GM team in june warning to not act with ill manner. It didn't say which account or character but I can guess. I was on the scholar on that account and was threatened. Another scholar kept laying MEs under an ID3 party so I took my scholar and cancelled aforementioned MEs (you use ME to do this) - and well my question really is like I don't know if the account was suspended, but lol... since when did people get emailed warnings like that? Only time that ever happened to me was after a big fight on the forums where I posted an email of a ticket from a million years ago saying another user was wrong because this was a rule the GMs told us directly!

 

The sanctions of activities should be clear for all to know to be honest. It shouldn't be a mysterious and secret interaction between financial and social whales and the game management. Everyone should know.

 

And umm... yeah about that everyone getting on the same page thing

 

LVKLTlv.png

 

This is stupidly frustrating. I wrote back this guy and was like forums aren't the place for ticket issues, never mind the fact that campitor hasn't answered a single question I had about the post.

 

4RE9MQU.png


Edited by Xellie, 17 October 2016 - 12:05 PM.

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#106 sv003

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 10:27 AM

I am glad the Harassment thing is mentioned... It happens quite often and isn't taken seriously by players until they get suspended for it.  "Go ahead tell the GMs, Ill wait for my ban"  while the harassment continues.

 

 

portal ecalling is stupid anyway and needs to go away

 

but portal cloak etc suddenly being illegal is dumb.

I don't think it means cloaking, just using the game mechanics and portals to glitch casts.

 

...... RO arts/fanarts that nobody knows where its from so how the hell can a rule be made out of that?

It wouldn't be so much he making up a rule, but ensuring that copyrighted materials do not end up having the entire server shut down because of an image... I have seen it happen over a image of a WOK.

 


 

Too bad half the community wouldn't even know these people anymore.

I miss heim.

 


 

The number of falsified reports regarding portal casting now that it's "official" is going to be epic.

 

xpost

 

it's stupid because it gives them more work and players have ways to deal with it.

 

The number of falsified reports that is possible from such rules is huge. many people use skills immediately on entering a portal, many start spamming it before they finish loading. I often recall on the spawn because other players spawn in and stack with me. I actually do this a lot (portal recalling into a hibram precast is dumb, so its an awareness thing). Scholars often ME on the spawn... paladins spam sac on the spawn.... how can you prove this stuff unless there's a CP?

 

and all it takes is one dumb screenshot to get those legit players banned, because the staff DO NOT INVESTIGATE. Why the hell would the GM team put themselves through this?

It should be easily distinguishable in videos... (For the majority of Game Changing skills)

 

I'm just gonna go with the logic that hide/cloak don't have cast times you just "use" it. The wording doesn't say portal "skill" it just says portal "cast" which I guess is aimed at becoming immune during loading times to bypass long cast times so all is good. :)

^ Cloaking while on a portal and initiating a skill while going "through" the portal, the end result is no cast above your head and sometimes a skill that is usually instantaneous as you come through the portal.  Using a glitch in the game mechanics for benefits.

 

portal casting =/= portal recalling.

Don't make a dumb rule that you know you can't enforce.

If you start to ban portal casting, then please be patience when people spam your ticket system just to ban someone from the other guild.

And the reason why portal recalling is illegit because you will need a 3rd party program to hotkey the guild recall button. Portal recall can be done with ingame feature, but you will be able to spam it way much faster with hotkeying the guild recall button.

Either fix it, or make sure what is really wrong here: the ability to portal casting or the use of 3rd party program.

Not sure if it could be easily fixed seeing how old the engine for this game is, BUT it is pretty enforceable with a video...  SOME skills won't be, but most of them wouldn't turn the tables in WoE.


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#107 Xellie

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 11:04 AM

I am glad the Harassment thing is mentioned... It happens quite often and isn't taken seriously by players until they get suspended for it.  "Go ahead tell the GMs, Ill wait for my ban"  while the harassment continues.

 

 

I don't think it means cloaking, just using the game mechanics and portals to glitch casts.

 

It wouldn't be so much he making up a rule, but ensuring that copyrighted materials do not end up having the entire server shut down because of an image... I have seen it happen over a image of a WOK.

 

I miss heim.

 


 

It should be easily distinguishable in videos... (For the majority of Game Changing skills)

 

^ Cloaking while on a portal and initiating a skill while going "through" the portal, the end result is no cast above your head and sometimes a skill that is usually instantaneous as you come through the portal.  Using a glitch in the game mechanics for benefits.

 

Not sure if it could be easily fixed seeing how old the engine for this game is, BUT it is pretty enforceable with a video...  SOME skills won't be, but most of them wouldn't turn the tables in WoE.

 

You realize you contradicted yourself, right?
 

I'll explain it to you one more time, I often recall on the spawn point because people spawn on top of me / my guild have dragged the defending guild to the emp. If someone walks on screen they will not see my cast bar. If a GM walks on screen they will not see my cast bar. RO just works in that manner.

 

Portal casting cloak and hide looks exactly the same as casting it immediately after spawn. People spam these skills as they load. Sometimes they go off, sometimes they don't. This is literally the most unenforceable bs possible.

 

I don't think I should have to video / stream every woe to prove I'm not doing things, when they banned my char over someone ELSE'S emblem. That's how well they investigate. The GM I was talking to also spoke about how reports are spammed over asinine things. Why give the community more ammo to waste GM time?

 

And even if there is a video, we used to do stuff like speedpot off CP and ganban the spawn point (gtbs are gud) then people could walk in and on video it looks just like people are casting in CP. Casting in CP is the only way portal casting can be definitely proven, for which you need either an editted client, or RO replay (and may I remind you that classic does not have that feature.)

 

 

 

Meanwhile, my client wouldn't let me set an emblem in a hurry and I got suspended because of -_-ty korean coding. I got videos of people autopotting en masse but you know, autopotting isn't enforceable.

 

So whilst I appreciate your efforts, I've been attempting to talk to the GMs about disproportionate and badly investigated cases and told to come here. Please don't defend them, what they did was bad and you don't have the information.


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#108 sv003

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 08:53 PM

Meaning not the SKILL cloaking itself, but the glitch. 

 

This might be outta line but, what about hosting WOE MAPS on a separate client IF at all possible...  Enforce non edited clients by using (Insert random client enforcer) so everyone is on the same playing field.  Similar to what they do in eSports leagues... I really don't know how EASY this would be to integrate or actually have done, but it would reduce a bit of tension and name calling... YES there probably will still be people bypassing one way or another, but it would be far and few between and more noticeable.


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#109 Xellie

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 09:02 PM

You are answering things I did not ask.


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#110 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 11:14 AM

Okay, today's question. (Let Jordan know it's not much of a "conversation")

 

How come being guildless inside a castle isn't illegal? One player with no guild (no emblem) can cause enough damage to get an entire guild killed in less than a second because they're "invisible" yet despite numerous reports and requests for this to be against the rules, we were told "We'll look into that" or "it's unenforceable".

 

It is literally equally as enforceable as having no emblem on a guild (some guilds only have one active player so think about that) and far more enforceable than "portal casting" as it's actually screenshottable and doesn't have any silly issues such as being mistaken when you walk on screen, or being a clientside problem where guild emblems don't load at all causing guilds to appear emblemless.

 

tldr; this is why people think the rules are biased and based on WHO complains, not how it affects the game. Autopotting never warranted a public announcement or patcher notice and the obvious unfairness of people playing without guild is overlooked.

I never wanted to confront the apparent biases like this, but as I have tried all "proper" routes (I've talked to campitor directly, I've sent tickets, I've talked to Warnhal directly) and been told to join the public conversation via a ticket, I'm calling it for what it is.

 

This thread was made up mostly with rules with input from Kali and as a result of me questioning emblem rules after some actual bs. When we pointed out that a lot of guilds use emblems under 50% examples were deleted but the rule was kept.

 

If rules were made judged on their impact on the game/server/community, they would be different.  Do I want to keep playing, supporting the game, encouraging my guild to play etc? Of course I do! Do I want to have to try and justify situations like this to people? Nah. Do I want to feel like everything I just said is the sad truth? Nope.

 

Talking to the staff is hard because they'll just say "both sides feel this way" but the other "side" if sides are to be such a thing, probably doesn't have the examples I do on hand.

 

 

edit: another thing "my group" have reported a lot is intentional pos bugging. (there's a lot of gtb wearing snipers on classic that can use arrow shower) but it doesn't seem to have ever been an issue for the staff. Yet I heard that on renewal they disabled some of the skills that cause it? Sup with that?


Edited by Xellie, 19 October 2016 - 11:40 AM.

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#111 Campitor

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:15 PM

Okay, today's question. (Let Jordan know it's not much of a "conversation")

 

How come being guildless inside a castle isn't illegal? One player with no guild (no emblem) can cause enough damage to get an entire guild killed in less than a second because they're "invisible" yet despite numerous reports and requests for this to be against the rules, we were told "We'll look into that" or "it's unenforceable".

 

To explain why we are hesitant to disallow guildless participation in WoE please see the hypothetical situation below.

 

Situation:

 

Player A: is participating in WoE and in guild #245. Recently player A had an argument with their guild leadership over a item drop. In the middle of WoE Guildleader of Guild #245 kicks Player A from the guild. Screenshots it and then reports Player A for being guildless in WoE. Player A is then suspended by the GM team for something that they had no control over.


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#112 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:18 PM

Well if the GMs are actually watching like you claim, you'd know if that player was "playing" or just randomly got kicked. You could also look for repeat offenders.


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#113 Campitor

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:19 PM

edit: another thing "my group" have reported a lot is intentional pos bugging. (there's a lot of gtb wearing snipers on classic that can use arrow shower) but it doesn't seem to have ever been an issue for the staff. Yet I heard that on renewal they disabled some of the skills that cause it? Sup with that?

Only Item Identification was blocked on the WoE Zones. In the past Classic has had certain skills blocked for their WoE zones that were never blocked for renewal.(Talkie Boxes for example). Different servers will have different content and settings.


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#114 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:22 PM

Only Item Identification was blocked on the WoE Zones. In the past Classic has had certain skills blocked for their WoE zones that were never blocked for renewal.(Talkie Boxes for example). Different servers will have different content and settings.

 

We asked when it was a problem. Item identify and arrow crafting.  I don't really understand why the renewal situation was different - the things they are used for are the same. (pos bugging recall, status arrow shower from safety, ganbantein around corners)

 

I could say the same thing @ portal casting you know. Classic doesn't have stasis and mandragora howling.


Edited by Xellie, 19 October 2016 - 12:23 PM.

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#115 Shomaye

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:22 PM

To explain why it is dangerous to try to enforce the ban on portal casting skills in WoE please see the hypothetical situation below.

 

Situation:

 

Player A: is participating in WoE and is the leader of guild #245. Recently player A has entered an emp room and has casted Urgent Recall. In the middle of their casting recall of Guild #245, Player B enters from offscreen. Player B Screenshots what appears to be a portal casting of Urgent Recall and then reports Player A for portal casting in WoE. Player A is then suspended by the GM team for something that they did not do?


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#116 Campitor

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:31 PM

We asked when it was a problem. Item identify and arrow crafting.  I don't really understand why the renewal situation was different - the things they are used for are the same. (pos bugging recall, status arrow shower from safety, ganbantein around corners)

 

I could say the same thing @ portal casting you know. Classic doesn't have stasis and mandragora howling.

There is no reason players should be using those during active fighting on the castle maps. So lets block them tomorrow.


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#117 Campitor

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:34 PM

To explain why it is dangerous to try to enforce the ban on portal casting skills in WoE please see the hypothetical situation below.

 

Situation:

 

Player A: is participating in WoE and is the leader of guild #245. Recently player A has entered an emp room and has casted Urgent Recall. In the middle of their casting recall of Guild #245, Player B enters from offscreen. Player B Screenshots what appears to be a portal casting of Urgent Recall and then reports Player A for portal casting in WoE. Player A is then suspended by the GM team for something that they did not do?

Please note the phrasing on the prohibition. It is the intentional portal casting what this means is the test is far higher than merely having portal casted or having the appearance of portal casting. The evidence should prove an intentional decision to repeatably portal cast. The GMs should not be banning in the situation provided.

 

My real concern as player/producer is that this may be a rule that only affects those who live stream as it is otherwise very hard to prove intention on a portal cast.


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#118 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:39 PM

Please note the phrasing on the prohibition. It is the intentional portal casting what this means is the test is far higher than merely having portal casted or having the appearance of portal casting. The evidence should prove an intentional decision to repeatably portal cast. The GMs should not be banning in the situation provided.

 

My real concern as player/producer is that this may be a rule that only affects those who live stream as it is otherwise very hard to prove intention on a portal cast.

 

Oh ain't that the truth. It's almost like Myzery was trolling me about the occasional portal recall I do during that client edits thread, then KamiKali was quoting things I said to him on skype in the thread, then you make a list of rules, some of which were made specifically regarding situations involving her. It's like.... people on skype were talking to each other or something.

 

Well It's like I told Jordan. I could always just not stream, since basically unenforceable otherwise rules just get created ;) and then it creates extra workload for the GM team.

I mean, classic just looks terrible because of the empty castles and harassment anyway so it's no loss.

 

Your focus is just in the wrong places. The focus should be on the stuff like MP hacks, or autopot (and my videos were more than clear so please don't) rather than silly things like portal recall which is spellbreakable (just FYI) and even on stream I now need to step away from the portal to recall/hide/cloak because hide and cloak don't have text cues.

 

When stuff like the following video happens, I don't see why I should have to video/stream everything to defend myself.

 


 


Edited by Xellie, 19 October 2016 - 12:41 PM.

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#119 Myzery

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:45 PM

To be fair, I was kidding about portal recalling and Kali was defending you because she thought portal casting was legal until Campitor enlightened us all on the subject.


Edited by Myzery, 19 October 2016 - 12:46 PM.

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#120 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:51 PM

To be fair, I was kidding about portal recalling and Kali was defending you because she thought portal casting was legal until Campitor enlightened us all on the subject.

 

Well that is fair and I believe you, but you gotta admit it looks bad.


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#121 Campitor

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:52 PM

Oh ain't that the truth. It's almost like Myzery was trolling me about the occasional portal recall I do during that client edits thread, then KamiKali was quoting things I said to him on skype in the thread, then you make a list of rules, some of which were made specifically regarding situations involving her. It's like.... people on skype were talking to each other or something.

 

Well It's like I told Jordan. I could always just not stream, since basically unenforceable otherwise rules just get created ;)

I mean, classic just looks terrible because of the empty castles and harassment anyway so it's no loss.

 

Your focus is just in the wrong places. The focus should be on the stuff like MP hacks, or autopot (and my videos were more than clear so please don't) rather than silly things like portal recall which is spellbreakable (just FYI) and even on stream I now need to step away from the portal to recall/hide/cloak because hide and cloak don't have text cues.

 

When stuff like the following video happens, I don't see why I should have to video/stream everything to defend myself.

 


 

Although I made this list of rules I did not make up the rules on the spot. They are not tailored to any single player or guild leader. Instead this was an attempt to codify what the rules currently are so we can stop with the confusion. Every one was working with different ideas about specific rules regarding certain mechanics and everyone could quote past GM rulings from 2008, 2007, 2012, etc.

 

Believe it or not I am not exactly a fan of the portal casting rule. But it was what I was taught was a rule, its what the GMs were taught as a rule, its what has been since at least 2010-2012. I can't find the thread where we had the discussion about the attempts to fix it. I thought it was in this thread that we talked about that.


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#122 Myzery

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:53 PM

It looks bad that it was added to the rules, yeah. I hope that no one would believe that people are that petty though and that the GMs especially would cater to it.


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#123 Xellie

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 01:04 PM

The emblem rule was basically made up as things happened. The many days we used to report enemy guilds for going emblemless. "It's a tactic!" the GMs said. Hell my guild even held a vote back in the day to decide if we should do it. We decided it was a dirty scummy thing to do so we didn't. Not back then.

Then Ymir happened and another guild used it vs us. Report after report was sent. Nothing.

 

I do it back once, recall on top of them 3 times in a row and suddenly GM at our save point threatening to disband.

And then it was all forgotten and happened again. Come Classic and I'm suddenly satan morroc. "how can I prove this autotargetting / client editting stuff?" I asked myself. Dropping emblem gave me the evidence I needed. I have no way to prove it anymore.

 

The threat of our ME being instant cast canceled under fire from many illegit hibrams is far greater than the long cast time of recall.... but the excuse is poor. I'm constantly told by the GM team that they watch me and that's why I got into trouble for.... stuff that didn't make sense. What did they watch?

 

And then it was illegal. So I simply swapped to a more transparent emblem. Or a similar coloured one.

Suddenly swapping was illegal. no more changing emblems to play pokemon, or match allies in colours.

 

Rules change because of the way community reacts. But you put the empathsis more on things that are easily mistaken and sometimes accidental.

 

 

 

And the portal casting rule became a huge deal because of renewal. In pre-re it was a minor annoyance. It was mandra howling and stasis that sealed the deal and made it a real thing. Our servers are really that much the same that you can tolerate people spamming reports because I hit stealth habitually as I approach a portal now?


Edited by Xellie, 19 October 2016 - 01:06 PM.

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#124 Demeris

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 01:07 PM

You know, it's funny that RO has to create rules for their game mechanics. Most rules in MMOs or video games in general is "don't be a dick to each other and don't cheat with 3rd party mods."

RO is the only game I've played that has a No KSing rule, no Warp Portal spawn rules, No stasis other party rule, No casting Thorn Wall on other players rule, no OP GRF edit rule,  No portal recall rule, no use of Magnifiers in WoE rule, etc etc.

Honestly, rules can't supress human behavior, people will do shady stuff to get what they want. The best way to deal with these problems is just create a system to avoid these problems before they can happen. For example, no stasis in any map except PvPs, or disable use of Magnifiers in pvp, or no recalling near portals.

Create rules all you want, but it's not going to do much in the long run because a player can simply (or purposely) pretend they didn't know about the rule and still commit the crime. Your best option is really to fix the in-game stuff yourself instead of relying on the players to behave.

Edit:

Here's the worse part about these rules. THEY CHANGE and are never set in stone. 10 years ago No Emblem was a legit strategy and then it was made illegal. Mobbing monsters was made illegal but now players do it in TIs all the time. Again, this goes back to how do you want to run the game and how are you going to enforce these rules with proper punishment? Honestly, it seems like too much work creating all these needless rules because of the change in time and the reliance on players behaving a certain way you want.

If you want these rules to truly be followed, you have to really exercise the ban hammer to send your message. But we'll see how that will go in the long run.


Edited by Demeris, 19 October 2016 - 01:12 PM.

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#125 Campitor

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 01:12 PM

You know, it's funny that RO has to create rules for their game mechanics. Most rules in MMOs or video games in general is "don't be a dick to each other and don't cheat with 3rd party mods."

RO is the only game I've played that has a No KSing rule, no Warp Portal spawn rules, No stasis other party rule, No casting Thorn Wall on other players rule, no OP GRF rule,  No portal recall rule, no use Magnifier in WoE rule, etc etc.

Honestly, rules can't supress human behavior, people will do shady stuff to get what they want. The best way to deal with these problems is just create a system to avoid these problems before they can happen. For example, no stasis in any map except PvPs, or disable use of Magnifiers in pvp, or no recalling near portals.

Create rules all you want, but it's not going to do much in the long run because a player can simply (or purposely) pretend they didn't know about the rule and still commit the crime. Your best option is really to fix the in-game stuff yourself instead of relying on the players to behave.

You are preaching to the choir on this. Though with the magnifier example they really are blocked on the map(well the skill they use is). So its not a rule but a hard limited mechanic. They shouldn't work. This is the perfect example of things that need to be included in the next run of "Things that bother you." Ideally I would prefer a game where players can't make reports because the bad stuff can't happen. Much of our wish list to the studio is along this line of thought but until such time as they create and update such things we have to deal with the game as we have it not as we want it to be.


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