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Upgrade Event, and future developments


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#51 Anchors

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:42 AM

I don't understand how these NOOBS don't get it.

Gear HAS to break in order to keep MVP drops valuable.

How else will zeny circulate around the community without it all being a matter of kafra drops?

PLAYING becomes irrelevant

You could just be buying characters and items.


How is a person in support of not having to spend a small fortune to reach +9 a noob for not understanding how zeny will circulate "within the community" (from the people who don't farm MVP gear to the people who do) without it all being a matter of "kafra drops"..?

Playing would only become irrelevant to those players who are just playing the game to farm MVP gear...

... if gear weren't already upgradable without breaking.
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#52 IronFist

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:42 AM

irrelevant. That +7 valk armor with 3 str can be +12 with no risk or loss.


Enchanting is risky... add enchanting chances with upgrade chances :mellow: also iv seen alot of armours with high upgrades without enchants...

I don't understand how these NOOBS don't get it.

Gear HAS to break in order to keep MVP drops valuable.

How else will zeny circulate around the community without it all being a matter of kafra drops?

PLAYING becomes irrelevant

You could just be buying characters and items.


Most mvp drops are, well, irrelevant anyways... Most mvp gear isnt used, its just old and redundant.
As for the gear that isnt, well it will increase the price of gear , it would infact SKYROCKET and high end mvp gear would be unattainable.

With the difficulty of some mvps and the long path to +20 gears, breaking gear at +5 is a little.... stupid

Edited by IronFist, 09 November 2011 - 01:43 AM.

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#53 Hrishi

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:44 AM

Once again, you can enchant a +0 Valk Armor with whatever enchant you want, and then take it to +12 by dumping a bunch of kafra points into it. Therefore it doesn't change anything.
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#54 Unifan

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:46 AM

How is a person in support of not having to spend a small fortune to reach +9 a noob for not understanding how zeny will circulate "within the community" (from the people who don't farm MVP gear to the people who do) without it all being a matter of "kafra drops"..?

Playing would only become irrelevant to those players who are just playing the game to farm MVP gear...

... if gear weren't already upgradable without breaking.


how can you say that? if you dnt camp or put in the effort to earn your zeny/gear then you don't deserve it. just because the mvp is camped, doesnt mean you cannot comped them. when i first started killing valk, it was camped, and i took it from them, then i tried morroc and kept trying, and gave up because i was loosing profit (mvp box that costed 80m a piece back then)
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#55 Anchors

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:48 AM

your wrong, thats not the exact point i tried to make, the point i try to make is that, there is no need to hunt mvps (like valk) to make zeny, Valk loots its been flooded for years, but for years, the armor it self, sells for alot of zeny and never was a problem until the safe upgrade were introduce. i never say having an easier +9 are causing the market distress, if you read properly i said, items that worth 60m are now worth 25m because of safe cert and bloody branch box that were introduced. please read more before you make your statements


I'm pretty sure the very first sentence in my reply clearly indicated that I read all there was to read in that portion of your statement. (tl/dr for the extraordinarily lazy or partially illiterate: I accurately summarized in my first sentence what you wrote.) You brought up an example that was irrelevent to the topic, possibly to mislead readers towards taking a stance against easier +9ing. I simply clarified your point as irrelevent to the topic.
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#56 IronFist

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:49 AM

Once again, you can enchant a +0 Valk Armor with whatever enchant you want, and then take it to +12 by dumping a bunch of kafra points into it. Therefore it doesn't change anything.


YOU CAN ENCHANT >> do you know how hard it is to get the enchantment you want!
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#57 Tofu

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:49 AM

If MVP drops are too expensive for what the average player is willing to pay, they will not buy more than one to overupgrade, and therefore upgrading with safe upgrades becomes more economical. On the other hand, if the cost of each safe upgrade is astronomically larger than the cost of a single piece of equipment, it would be more economical to buy the equipment in bulk then, and upgrade without the safe ores. This would then cause, in turn, for the cost of the item to rise because now people need more than 1. The price of items should then stabilize somewhere in between worthless and overpriced.

The easy solution for people who don't think camping certain mvps is worth it anymore, is don't camp them anymore!

The small minority that have all the high end mvps camped want gear to break so they can keep them at insane prices. With this insane amount of money though, they buy WPE for insane prices from people who cannot compete against those MVPs, and sell WPE for zeny to buy them instead. If the high end mvp items had less value, or expensive hard to attain items in general, then the amount of zeny you can get for the same effort would decrease, and in turn decrease the value of WPE in zeny.

Everything about it is circular. +9 gear is not new, and niether is +10-14. People will still keep making +9s and up safely. This event should not affect mvp items in the slightest.
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#58 Anchors

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:50 AM

how can you say that? if you dnt camp or put in the effort to earn your zeny/gear then you don't deserve it. just because the mvp is camped, doesnt mean you cannot comped them. when i first started killing valk, it was camped, and i took it from them, then i tried morroc and kept trying, and gave up because i was loosing profit (mvp box that costed 80m a piece back then)


Where did I say no one was putting effort into getting zeny/gear?
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#59 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:55 AM

"I don't understand how these NOOBS don't get it.

Gear HAS to break in order to keep MVP drops valuable.

How else will zeny circulate around the community without it all being a matter of kafra drops?

PLAYING becomes irrelevant

You could just be buying characters and items."



Sorry but your the one that doesnt get it and are purely looking out for your own interests on this matter. RO is the most top heavy game I've played for wealth distribution. n00bs need to be able to realistically afford to buy Diab robes, boots and stuff in order to keep them happy. If you make everything break it makes the campers incredibly rich and wearing +7 while the rest of the server walks round in eden gears and one or two ok pieces. Oh and a noob in eden gear is much more likely to quit than a noob in a diab boots etc.

Seriously if they make everything break again this is what happens.
Diab and Valk gears go x3 in price
Become unobtainable to the masses.
Wealth isnt distributed it goes to the people who camp those mvps.
That wealth isnt redistributed unless some noob drops a ultra rare ghostring card or something from another mvp.
The Valk/Diab farmers being the richest outbid and win said items as they have monopoly on the best gear source.

End of the day this makes 95% of the population LESS happy and more likely to quit and makes 5% of the population more happy.
The way it currently is keeps those 95% MORE happy and makes the 5% emo cry but they're hard core anyway so wouldnt quit so who cares.

Net win for server player base.

The economy needs to be based on an influx of new players. If new players keep coming then the gears will always sell and sell at a price that they can afford. New players put alot of KP into the economy to help them start out thus a good turn over of zeny.
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#60 Heimdallr

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:56 AM

Gear not breaking is a problem, and hopefully after this event some clever updates will make them spendable in some fashion so the value goes up. Personally having everything in vend range is a good thing for hte game, its only counter balanced because there are some that have huge z funds that can literally throw money around keeping hte prices higher.
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#61 Zinja

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:10 AM

Gear not breaking is a problem, and hopefully after this event some clever updates will make them spendable in some fashion so the value goes up. Personally having everything in vend range is a good thing for hte game, its only counter balanced because there are some that have huge z funds that can literally throw money around keeping hte prices higher.


you speak of two notions here
1. To increase the value of gears
2. Keeping everything in vend range.

Which is Seemingly impossible as they are at complete Opposite Ends due to the third factor that you raised i.e
"there are some that have huge z funds that can literally throw money around keeping the prices higher."

what exactly are you trying to do here. really? because regarding the 3rd factor is something i have been hearing many times over the years with no glimmer of it actually happening.
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#62 Hrothmund

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:13 AM

Hows this sound for a consumption fix?

HD ore + base gear = enriched upgrade attempt.

I.E. +8 valk mant + HD ore + valk mant(in inventory) = safe enriched attempt from +8 to +9.

You could toss in an enriched ore as well if you want, but if you made base item consumption part of the actual upgrade formula (if thats possible) that would solve the "1 gear for life" current approach. Can either take the old "bad" chance doing regular HD upgrades (things like KVM weapons i guess) or the new way that would consume some gears in the process.
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#63 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:21 AM

Better if it requires an Eden Badge + enriched

Tbh given the total lack of real effort Valk and Morroc take when stacked with gears I dont think they worth the money they sold for as it is. If they still required 8ppl on screen and a 30min fight maybe. But a 5min warp portal hopping job or 2 man team isnt that tough.

Making it Eden badges + enriched keeps ppl partying and everyone happy.
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#64 tascomoo

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:21 AM

I'm not into woe or anything +10-14 yet I just finally managed to get enough zeny through a lot of effort to get a +9 RWH and the rest of my items are mostly +4 with only one +7. I really don't understand all this stuff but my main worry is will my RWH (about 70% of my net worth) be dropping in value? If so can anyone give an honest speculation on what kind of drop to expect? Without being overly dramatic and saying all +9s will be worthless if possible.

Edit: I'm on valk by the way if that matters.

Edited by tascomoo, 09 November 2011 - 02:22 AM.

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#65 Hrishi

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:22 AM

Hows this sound for a consumption fix?HD ore + base gear = enriched upgrade attempt.I.E. +8 valk mant + HD ore + valk mant(in inventory) = safe enriched attempt from +8 to +9.You could toss in an enriched ore as well if you want, but if you made base item consumption part of the actual upgrade formula (if thats possible) that would solve the "1 gear for life" current approach. Can either take the old "bad" chance doing regular HD upgrades (things like KVM weapons i guess) or the new way that would consume some gears in the process.


This is actually a fantastic idea.
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#66 Hrothmund

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:28 AM

I was thinking along the lines of one of those hat events months ago where you consumed hats to upgrade a hat, something like that.
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#67 Anchors

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:33 AM

Hows this sound for a consumption fix?

HD ore + base gear = enriched upgrade attempt.

I.E. +8 valk mant + HD ore + valk mant(in inventory) = safe enriched attempt from +8 to +9.

You could toss in an enriched ore as well if you want, but if you made base item consumption part of the actual upgrade formula (if thats possible) that would solve the "1 gear for life" current approach. Can either take the old "bad" chance doing regular HD upgrades (things like KVM weapons i guess) or the new way that would consume some gears in the process.


I like the concept of the idea (how abstract is that!), but I kinda fear that this would drive prices of items already worth hundreds of millions of zeny well into the multiple billions, further widening the gap between the rich and the not.

Codface's idea of incorporating the eden badge was also an interesting one - you can either do TIs for the badges (will likely have to actually party and/or make a TI slave so you're not stuck with those really tough TIs /swt) or MVP and turn in the drops for badges, indirectly motivating players to level/pary more and to MVP more.

Perhaps an either/or system could be implemented to keep prices of the most valuable gear from skyrocketing while moderating supplies of more moderately priced gears? Or perhaps give the duplicate gear idea a larger upgrade chance increase and having the EMB+enriched/HD the normal enriched success chances?
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#68 Myzery

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:34 AM

Gear not breaking is a problem, and hopefully after this event some clever updates will make them spendable in some fashion so the value goes up. Personally having everything in vend range is a good thing for hte game, its only counter balanced because there are some that have huge z funds that can literally throw money around keeping hte prices higher.


Nope, the game is a free market and people will always control the price of things.
If someone wants to monopolize a certain MVPs drops, you can't do anything about it unless you artificially introduce them.

Everything in vend range isn't a good idea. This game has no end game content and people need gear goals to work towards. You're driving people away and this it why you personally need to stay out of making changes like this. Time and time again you have upset the community with methods that aren't well thought out and it's only because you don't really play the game.
Everything might look good on paper, but in reality it's not gonna work in the end.

Stick to doing quests and events like the spooky machine that everyone seemed to love.
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#69 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:38 AM

As for items value changes and drops based on maths


Current Value of item
Minus the +4 item value (base value)
This gives the upgrade value

half the upgrade value and add back on the base value and thats roughly the price the items now going to be worth.
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#70 Unifan

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:40 AM

Hows this sound for a consumption fix?

HD ore + base gear = enriched upgrade attempt.

I.E. +8 valk mant + HD ore + valk mant(in inventory) = safe enriched attempt from +8 to +9.

You could toss in an enriched ore as well if you want, but if you made base item consumption part of the actual upgrade formula (if thats possible) that would solve the "1 gear for life" current approach. Can either take the old "bad" chance doing regular HD upgrades (things like KVM weapons i guess) or the new way that would consume some gears in the process.



this is a very good idea
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#71 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:48 AM

"Hows this sound for a consumption fix?

HD ore + base gear = enriched upgrade attempt.

I.E. +8 valk mant + HD ore + valk mant(in inventory) = safe enriched attempt from +8 to +9.

You could toss in an enriched ore as well if you want, but if you made base item consumption part of the actual upgrade formula (if thats possible) that would solve the "1 gear for life" current approach. Can either take the old "bad" chance doing regular HD upgrades (things like KVM weapons i guess) or the new way that would consume some gears in the process."

No one would ever use this ever period because its "hmm use a HD ore at 20% or spend 50m and an enriched ore for 30%". Its totally unviable unless it doesnt downgrade at all which doesnt work in the game WPE model.

Its a total fail idea. Seriously are people stupid or something to think its even viable or would work. Might as well shove the npc that does this in the Auction house.

People would use a feature with eden badges plus Enriched Elu. Just need to tweak the number of badgers/enrich ratio to make it a an alternate to spending them on Mvps or KVM badges.
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#72 Tofu

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:53 AM

^ that does not solve the problem of Gear "breaking" at all. But having "safe" non degradable upgrades using the base item in the upgrading process would be a great idea, and a good way to remove a lot of excess MVP gear.
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#73 Hrothmund

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:56 AM

Consider the example given. On Ymir, valk mants are about 2m in value right now, +9's i guess about 100m.

would you rather

a) use HD for 10% chance for +10, 90% chance to lose ~70m value (+8 is worth about 30m)

or

B ) spend the extra 2m to effectively double your chances to 20% to reach +10.

It's opportunity cost, there is a certain threshold at which it would be much more economically viable to sacrifice gears for improved odds rather than having a gear degrade at a higher rate. Its the same reason its still worth using enriched ores for lower end gears (less than 10m base value normally) in a lot of situations.

Eventually when you reach a high enough upgrade, even sacrificing KVM weapons to help prevent degrading is beneficial (probably only the last step from +13 to +14) since some people have 10k+ "useless" kvm badges. Its not for everyone, but really its not meant to be.

Another idea is that sacrificing a gear doesnt improve your odds, but removes the -1 on failure. It would be fine for things like KVM weapons (i WOULD sacrifice a KVM weapon or 5 at +13 to reach +14) but i would be concerned about cheap gears. If it took 10 attempts on average to go each step 10 -> 20 we'd have waaaaaaaaaay too many +20 gears.

*edit*
before someone says nobody would ever sacrfice a KVM weapon, have a talk to those people that have 10k+ "useless" kvm badges from rolling seals or box events in storage (and are stuck with +12/13 weapons). Its not for everyone, but the absolute best gear is not a casually aquired thing.

Edited by Hrothmund, 09 November 2011 - 03:03 AM.

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#74 Anchors

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:08 AM

Enriched rates from +9 armor or level 4 weapon to +10 are still 10%.

Also, Codface, the things people do for an extra small boost to success chance (check out Trickster Online)...

<edit>Incidentally, that's what I meant about moderately priced versus high-priced gears in the either/or option for the EMBs/duplicate gears ideas... I wouldn't hesitate to buy up a bunch of tidal boots for that 10% extra chance, but I'd never do it for, say, a rideword hat. >_> With an either/or option, I'd obviously use a EMG for that.

Edited by Anchors, 09 November 2011 - 03:14 AM.

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#75 Codface

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:08 AM

Thats not the point

Here is gravity view.

Would you rather

Implement AND develop a feature with no downgrade using base mats as a cost

That makes it require on less than 20 HD ores average or 200KP spent.

30% for 7->8 is 3.33HD ore and 3.33Valks
30% for 8->9 is 3.33HD ore and 3.33valks
10% for 9->10 is 10HD ores and 10 Valk.

Even at none Enriched rates its not going to happen.

All this does is massively raise prices of Mvp/base mat and makes no one ever buy more than 100 HD Elu/Ori. Thus lose a massive WPE input.

Next idiot suggestion please.

Edited by Codface, 09 November 2011 - 03:09 AM.

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