222 replies to this topic

[sukidayo]

if you hate vip/kafra shop/whatever, the best way to show your discontent is to leave the game. don't just tell them you're leaving, actually don't play.

the reason iro implements questionable ideas is that they know players will continue playing. there might be a lot of complaints, but they know the players don't have the guts (or the will) to do the right thing.

[Fureedo]

And seriously, the same argument of '7$ isn't that much' could be said about VIP users: we already get a permanent battle manual effect, bubble gum, food buffs, infinite WoE tele-scrolls, an inn outside every castle, summoner of MVPs and an extra dungeon together with other extra benefits. Isn't that enough to make those who want VIP decide to buy VIP? How many more users does anyone sincerely thinks this changes will decide to buy VIP now? Because if few to none new players subscribe, then there is no point in changes.

Just saying, I wonder how much having normal bms permanently on for a month would cost ( and yes, i'm too lazy to calculate it...)

Anyway, They're just fighting each others, not listening to reason ^-^
And GMs are just listening to money.

There's a reason we get to have more things faster, and there's a reason so many mmos are going free to play. It's actually as, and probably more profitable than the subscription model.

[asayuu]

The reason private servers were so popular was because not everyone could pay the subscription fee. Now I don't know how is the private server flow, and personally I don't want to know right now.

But yeah, after the F2P model, I believe the pserver population halved at least. On all countries with official servers.

The point is. Why someone leaves an official server and joins a private server nowadays?

In the past, was the subscription fees. Now it is what? Also. What makes someone [with money of course] give money to a private server instead of giving it to one official instead? Is there something wrong on the management? The community? The "core" of the server?

Banning private servers won't help in anything, because anyone can run one in their homes, and "secretly" give the IP. So the solution is simply. The staff must show they are the best option for free players, consumers in potential. Of course the paid experience must be better, but it does not mean the non-paid experience must be bad. If the non-paid experience is bad, those people will move to a private server instead, and this is bad for everyone.

[Kadnya]

Quoting from msn...

oh well, tomorow turn ins become horrible anyway
=(
so, doesn't matter anymore~
won't be able to stack quests for bms anymore
or even have more than 1
bio 3 turn in! 5 totally different turn ins!
You can't have more than 1 active at a time, so non-vip, you better never die in between!
oh, oh! and while your vip party does one quest for the all, you have to stay down there 5 times the time!
5 times the fun! Lucky you!
or, how to do from " I kinda wanna poke ro again" to "fck that game" in 10 seconds flat!

Nice job, I feel so VIP...

[meoryou2]

The reason private servers were so popular was because not everyone could pay the subscription fee. Now I don't know how is the private server flow, and personally I don't want to know right now.

But yeah, after the F2P model, I believe the pserver population halved at least. On all countries with official servers.

The point is. Why someone leaves an official server and joins a private server nowadays?

In the past, was the subscription fees. Now it is what? Also. What makes someone [with money of course] give money to a private server instead of giving it to one official instead? Is there something wrong on the management? The community? The "core" of the server?

Banning private servers won't help in anything, because anyone can run one in their homes, and "secretly" give the IP. So the solution is simply. The staff must show they are the best option for free players, consumers in potential. Of course the paid experience must be better, but it does not mean the non-paid experience must be bad. If the non-paid experience is bad, those people will move to a private server instead, and this is bad for everyone.

Why people go to PServers? Simple, leveling. Most PServers that I have seen advertised have either 4X+ EXP rates OR custom monsters that give better scaled EXP. People leave official servers because of slow leveling or other monster stupidity ( see the thread about the new archer leveling in orc village that gets 1-2 shotted with BLEEDING ) Then to add insult to injury you have mods on the forums telling them either get more AGI or a choice between 2 relatively expensive cards that a new player could NEVER afford - this was in another orc village bleeding thread BTW. Yeah, get more AGI.... your FS will heal very well then .... and who needs a VIT knight / sader / any other class . It's because of stupidity like this that people bail on a game, when you can't level at places that are your level because of changes that are stupid as hell and completely unnecessary.

[Kadnya]

Why people go to PServers? Simple, leveling. Most PServers that I have seen advertised have either 4X+ EXP rates OR custom monsters that give better scaled EXP. People leave official servers because of slow leveling or other monster stupidity ( see the thread about the new archer leveling in orc village that gets 1-2 shotted with BLEEDING ) Then to add insult to injury you have mods on the forums telling them either get more AGI or a choice between 2 relatively expensive cards that a new player could NEVER afford - this was in another orc village bleeding thread BTW. Yeah, get more AGI.... your FS will heal very well then .... and who needs a VIT knight / sader / any other class . It's because of stupidity like this that people bail on a game, when you can't level at places that are your level because of changes that are stupid as hell and completely unnecessary.

There are pservers with several times the population on iRO, with 1x rates, so nyupe.

[Heimdallr]

Gramps is a Value Added NPC, access and his use is given freely to all, but VIP gets more use from him. We didn't make gramps VIP only which to be honest is the way it could have been. We want everyone to be on VIP, that is the intention but we also offer the full game to non-VIP as well and we were very giving in allowing all the event NPCs like Gramps to still give some benefit to the non-VIP players. In a perfect world it would have been set up this way from the begining so it wouldn't feel like we are taking away anything.

Reset stones are hardly a guaranteed KP cost, with the amount of them being vended or earned via Eden Merit Badge turnins, they are a cost but it doesn't have to be a KP cost.

We have to evolve or we die, dieing is not an acceptable option, we could take the event Gramps out of the game for a few weeks, then reimplement it as necessary but we want to not take out things that players enjoy doing and along those lines was the process of implementing the change without disabling him for a few weeks. We are NOT trying to stick it to the players but we do need to evolve the game to meet current game trends. Our goal is to get all the people that play to login and play for at least 30 minutes a day, seriously that is all. We have about the same number of unique accounts logging in every month as we have for a long long time, the difference is not all of them are playing for as long as they were per gaming session and often only logging in on specific short times. I mention that because the user number that shows on the character select looks much lower than before and there was much discussion on it both internally and here on the forums. We want to put in content that is fun for you, which engages you to be in the game more often as you enjoy your time. Even if that time is free we still want you in-game the idea is a % of you will opt to do VIP or buy something in the Kafra shop if you are in-game enough so first we have to make the game 'sticky' to you so you want to login more, and that is what we have to do right now.

[JStoneheart]

Fact: 80% of iRO players are NOT from a developed country and CAN'T afford VIP mainly due payment option limitations (for mid-class people) or just because these people prefer to eat before playing.

The real issue here is that most people who got interested in this server going F2P are 3rd world countries' players, who don't really have much money to spend on Kafra Point items like Lucky boxes (which are the real problem in the server, not VIP itself).

The problem about VIP is not that VIP get more advantages, but the fact that GM's made feel more welcome non-VIP players with changes that proved to be more enjoyable than pservers' but, right after non-VIP felt "warm and cozy" in the new RO-home after leaving a fair and balanced pserver, GM's took their blankets away and made them sleep in the cold, outside in the porch as a punishment just for being poor, and told them to be thankful they could, at least, be there and made them look at the warm people inside the house having a nice meal next to a fireplace.

This is not the right thing to do. I mean, it's ok for people to pay to have privileges, I'm not against it, but giving something to someone who can't afford it, making him/her get use to it and then, taking it away, is just wrong. I mean, people will eventually get tired and those who came from pservers will just walk back to their old servers because iRO is not the Ragnarok Online they love anymore.

And for those who said "get a job" or something, let me tell you that jobs are an obsolete economy model and it's what is breaking our world apart.

Article: Are jobs obsolete? (You might find it interesting)

Edited by JStoneheart, 09 January 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[Heimdallr]

Fact: 80% of iRO players are NOT from a developed country and CAN'T afford VIP mainly due payment option limitations (for mid-class people) or just because these people prefer to eat before playing.

The real issue here is that most people who got interested in this server going F2P are 3rd world countries' players, who don't really have much money to spend on Kafra Point items like Lucky boxes (which are the real problem in the server, not VIP itself).

The problem about VIP is not that VIP get more advantages, but the fact that GM's made feel more welcome non-VIP players with changes that proved to be more enjoyable than pservers' but, right after non-VIP felt "warm and cozy" in the new RO-home after leaving a fair and balanced pserver, GM's took their blankets away and made them sleep in the cold, outside in the porch as a punishment just for being poor, and told them to be thankful they could, at least, be there and made them look at the warm people inside the house having a nice meal next to a fireplace.

This is not the right thing to do. I mean, it's ok for people to pay to have privileges, I'm not against it, but giving something to someone who can't afford it, making him/her get use to it and then, taking it away, is just wrong. I mean, people will eventually get tired and those who came from pservers will just walk back to their old servers because iRO is not the Ragnarok Online they love anymore.

And for those who said "get a job" or something, let me tell you that jobs are an obsolete economy model and it's what is breaking our world appart.

Article: Are jobs obsolote? (You might find it interesting)

I am interested in what would be "fair" seperation between VIP and non-VIP. There was a laundry list of things that could be different between vip/non that we didn't do because they significantly impaired playability and frankly would be circumvented via playing the system, like multi-client restriction, upgrade system ease, map access actual lowering of the exp/drop rate below "standard" for non-VIP. When Valkyrie launched it was to not only try to bring in more players that normally couldn't participate in a subscription only scenario but also to try to appeal on some level to those that were playing in the pserver arena. One of the excuses we also heard was the cost excuse so we eliminated that with Valkyrie and to this day the game still allows you to go everywhere, upgrade/hunt anything and level up to maximum without ever buying anything for money. But there are supposed to be advantages to investing in the game, among those are leveling faster and getting around quicker than normal, if we only had asthetic advantages like you could have the neat looking blue hat versus the normal pink hat then I think we would have gone out of business long ago if we didn't try to make the game fit an economic model that allows the game to sustain itself. I wouldn't want RO to have 100,000+ players per month yet close down due to not generating revenue, being a foot note in MMO history as the most successful failure isn't what anyone wants/ed.

I sincerely hate trying to justify why we have to operate as a business to some extent, it is like actors breaking the 4th wall in the middle of the good part of a play/movie it takes the audience out of the fantasy and into the boring world of reality, and really no one talks fondly and excitedly about stock figures or clothing prices in the real world so hearing about the "business" side behind a GAME is distasteful. Ideally we have a product that the audience enjoys enough to not only invest in it but also tell their friends about, and we the company just sit in the curtained off area making sure the production is on schedule with enough exciting twists to keep the audience coming back for the next exciting episode. Some of the dollar talking very well may be concerned players that worry about the game having a long future, no one wants to start watching a series on the last episode so to speak; with that in mind I do want to say that RO is healthy, has a long development future and has so much attention on it from us that it has no foreseeable end. BUT that doesn't mean we (staff) are able to rest easy, the gaming community is finicky and has tons of options which means we have to do our absolute best in maintaining and planning out contents and events to keep you all playing if we don't our built up success could reverse within a period of couple of weeks. The MMO industry as a whole is not the constantly growing entity it was a few years ago, tons of games come out and go away with old behemoths merging their servers or closing down all together; I plan to be here for a long time and even when I'm not I still expect to login to iRO and see my 8 year old characters staring back at me with that haunting login screen music playing and then login to find my friends and play!



/rant (I really need to learn to be briefer).

One point that I didn't address in all that was the idea that we have opened up more to a younger audience and to an international audience that may not be capable of paying. Short answer is yes we have, and if were my perfect world there would only be one english server (iRO) and everyone would come to us to play. We spent alot of time (we being web and billing teams) finding and implementing international payment options to try and alleviate some of their payment issues, but the issue of having no abilty to afford to buy anything isn't something we have yet addressed fully. The way we (RO production and GM team) have tried to address this issue is by giving such players a support role in RO. They can get the full game for free and by their playing and hunting they can acquire the paid only items via player vends or Eden merit badge turnin. The big picture that we wanted to paint was that everyone has a place in RO, those who can't pay are still valuable members of the community because they can recruit friends and play actively to add to the overall enjoyment of RO for everyone that is the benefit that they can give back which is just as valuable as any dollars spent. Of course we need both dollars and postive players one without the other is an unsustainable game model which is why we try and add so much events and incentives for longer play time.

One challenge for 2012 is to find alternate revenue generation that even our less privelaged players can participate in, the offer wall on the WarpPortal was intended to help with that but the offers available aren't always enough for all areas or player demographics in the world. While less than 40% of the players in iRO are from "under developed" countries it is an area that is an easier growth potential than to continue saturation bombing the very impacted countries like US or Europe. (Think of it as "How many players does x amount of effort bring?" in some areas 1 unit of effort is needed for 1 player, in others it may be 10 units of effort, if we are only looking at acquiring players it makes more sense to attract from the easier pool of players.)

[ChrisWintermoon]

Fact: 80% of iRO players are NOT from a developed country and CAN'T afford VIP mainly due payment option limitations (for mid-class people) or just because these people prefer to eat before playing.

The real issue here is that most people who got interested in this server going F2P are 3rd world countries' players, who don't really have much money to spend on Kafra Point items like Lucky boxes (which are the real problem in the server, not VIP itself).

The problem about VIP is not that VIP get more advantages, but the fact that GM's made feel more welcome non-VIP players with changes that proved to be more enjoyable than pservers' but, right after non-VIP felt "warm and cozy" in the new RO-home after leaving a fair and balanced pserver, GM's took their blankets away and made them sleep in the cold, outside in the porch as a punishment just for being poor, and told them to be thankful they could, at least, be there and made them look at the warm people inside the house having a nice meal next to a fireplace.

This is not the right thing to do. I mean, it's ok for people to pay to have privileges, I'm not against it, but giving something to someone who can't afford it, making him/her get use to it and then, taking it away, is just wrong. I mean, people will eventually get tired and those who came from pservers will just walk back to their old servers because iRO is not the Ragnarok Online they love anymore.

And for those who said "get a job" or something, let me tell you that jobs are an obsolete economy model and it's what is breaking our world apart.

Article: Are jobs obsolete? (You might find it interesting)

Did you just insulted the United States of America and called it an ,,not developed country"? I should sue you right on the spot!

Where the hell did you get your so called ,,fact"? Got it out your .... whatever?
In fact, most of the Player COME from the USA or from EUROPE, some are from AUSTRALIA and a few from here and there.
USA isnt an non developed Country, nor is any country in Europe or Australia.

So where you got your ridiculous assumptions and numbers from?

Geeez those people now a days....

@Heim

sooooooooo +1!!! Can I build an Altar to honor you at Pron?

Edited by ChrisWintermoon, 09 January 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[IronPlushy]

Did you just insulted the United States of America and called it an ,,not developed country"? I should sue you right on the spot!

Where the hell did you get your so called ,,fact"? Got it out your .... whatever?
In fact, most of the Player COME from the USA or from EUROPE, some are from AUSTRALIA and a few from here and there.
USA isnt an non developed Country, nor is any country in Europe or Australia.

So where you got your ridiculous assumptions and numbers from?

Geeez those people now a days....

@Heim

sooooooooo +1!!! Can I build an Altar to honor you at Pron?

Many European countries are on par with third world countries, and 50% of the US population is classified as poor, ("poor" income levels are defined as double poverty levels), and many players are from Mexico and South America. In many categories the US IS a third world country. Our levels of economic disparity is only two countries above Rwanda...RWANDA!

[Ghost007]

This is just people who don't want to spend 5-7 dollars a month complaining, the worst is when you bring up 3rd world countries. Yes cause everyone in a 3rd world country has a computer and internet. Apparently these people think you can have a company run a game, pay staff, pay fees, costs for maintenance, etc... and the company will pay and lose money to keep it free for you? I would assume most players have jobs or are in college, at the very least high school and understand how the world works. How bout this for your all people so wise with your money, spend 7 dollars less a month and invest it into a game you love playing but dont want to pay for.

This thread only makes sense to me if 90% of the population is still 5 years old.

[Inubashiri]

@JStone
@IronPlushy
@ChrisWintermoon

I think we're getting a bit of the topic, turn the wheel 180 degrees pl0x

[IronPlushy]

This is just people who don't want to spend 5-7 dollars a month complaining, the worst is when you bring up 3rd world countries. Yes cause everyone in a 3rd world country has a computer and internet. Apparently these people think you can have a company run a game, pay staff, pay fees, costs for maintenance, etc... and the company will pay and lose money to keep it free for you? I would assume most players have jobs or are in college, at the very least high school and understand how the world works. How bout this for your all people so wise with your money, spend 7 dollars less a month and invest it into a game you love playing but dont want to pay for.

This thread only makes sense to me if 90% of the population is still 5 years old.

I'm guessing not much makes sense to you.

[Xellie]

Gosh, you kids and your first world problems.

$7/month is like £3 or so for me.... or a mcdonalds meal.... 2 chocolate bars..... a vodka and coke..... . I dunno... I think I'd rather have the vodka than pay the VIP costs of this game.

The product isn't appealing in it's current state, see? It's all very well charging for something, but it has to be worth charging for. The VIP model is fine, the p2w cash shop isn't. If not for the excessive nature of the cash shop, perhaps VIP would be more appealing.

[IronPlushy]

Did anyone of you players who hate poor people ever think that maybe it's not that we can't afford $7 a month indefinitely, but that we feel there are better things to spend our money on than a free game?

[Xellie]

Did anyone of you players who hate poor people ever think that maybe it's not that we can't afford $7 a month indefinitely, but that we feel there are better things to spend our money on than a free game?

I wouldn't take it so personally, there needs to be differences and a game is just a form of entertainment that needs to cover its costs.

We should be bickering about improving the content as a whole, not the baseline fee (which actually isn't much) anyway - you can earn that 700 point doin their dumb surveys or by eating ramen for like 3 days of the month.

[meoryou2]

Gramps is a Value Added NPC, access and his use is given freely to all, but VIP gets more use from him. We didn't make gramps VIP only which to be honest is the way it could have been. We want everyone to be on VIP, that is the intention but we also offer the full game to non-VIP as well and we were very giving in allowing all the event NPCs like Gramps to still give some benefit to the non-VIP players. In a perfect world it would have been set up this way from the begining so it wouldn't feel like we are taking away anything.

Reset stones are hardly a guaranteed KP cost, with the amount of them being vended or earned via Eden Merit Badge turnins, they are a cost but it doesn't have to be a KP cost.

We have to evolve or we die, dieing is not an acceptable option, we could take the event Gramps out of the game for a few weeks, then reimplement it as necessary but we want to not take out things that players enjoy doing and along those lines was the process of implementing the change without disabling him for a few weeks. We are NOT trying to stick it to the players but we do need to evolve the game to meet current game trends. Our goal is to get all the people that play to login and play for at least 30 minutes a day, seriously that is all. We have about the same number of unique accounts logging in every month as we have for a long long time, the difference is not all of them are playing for as long as they were per gaming session and often only logging in on specific short times. I mention that because the user number that shows on the character select looks much lower than before and there was much discussion on it both internally and here on the forums. We want to put in content that is fun for you, which engages you to be in the game more often as you enjoy your time. Even if that time is free we still want you in-game the idea is a % of you will opt to do VIP or buy something in the Kafra shop if you are in-game enough so first we have to make the game 'sticky' to you so you want to login more, and that is what we have to do right now.

Then revert half of the monster changes that the "balance" patch brought with it. There is no incentive for people to make new characters when you have issues like http://forums.warppo...at-orc-village/ or http://forums.warppo...in-orc-village/ or bleeding in comodo dungeons. These are low level places that are mobby with aggressive monsters, even comodo dungeon is for 85-99 or so. Add in then the monsters hurting more in many places, especially in places you would level just after you change to 3rd class on top of the already poorly thought out skill tree progressions and you get people not wanting to continue to play. Yeah this is somewhat addressed with the turn ins, but finding / waiting for a party is no fun... again why bother to log in? There are very few parties outside of turn ins, and many people are not able to really solo effectively anymore due to all the changes = less players spending less time on the server.

Instead of making normal monsters harder and discouraging soloing the better idea would be to revert at least the monster changes ( leave the skill changes for the most part, mostly they are OK - not ideal but liveable ) and make event maps out of some of renewals "dead" maps, kind of like west orc village / overlook dungeon is but for higher level players. Make the monsters there much tougher with drastically higher EXP rewards, this will encourage parties, discourage soloers on these maps, and reward you if you CAN solo because you are completely loaded down with uber gears... just like everyone has been clamoring for since renewal hit. That way you have to best of both worlds, people can still solo the "slow" way if they can't find a party on and people will actively try to party for more than one turn in because it will actually be worthwhile to do.

[Amis]

I would like to kindly point out that....

- non VIPs: That you gain a high or low income doesn't mean you must have nice things for free, the low income on X country isn't an argument to use, games are not a prime necessity if you are really needed of food and shelter.

- VIPs: You are getting nothing new. Is it really worth to defend your [nothing new] like a monkey saying you deserve and gained it, even if your [nothing new] gives you zero new benefits, actually makes your parties take more time recruiting, more time waiting, and indirectly lowers your gaming experience?

Because that is the problem. The changes of making turn ins less desirable for some players affect both VIPs and non VIPs, by giving you less people to party, and longer time forming parties.

Kad you're mostly right about this. I don't have anything against non-VIP, I'm happy to have them in game. My issue is that there are a number of very vocal non-VIP players who have not and do not have any intention of spending money on RO, trying to influence the way Heim and the rest make decisions regarding company income decisions. Because those players are worth $0 to Gravity, their opinions on what non-VIP and VIP should have are in the least distracting, and at worst destructive, to the long term existence of the game.

[IronPlushy]

I wouldn't take it so personally, there needs to be differences and a game is just a form of entertainment that needs to cover its costs.

We should be bickering about improving the content as a whole, not the baseline fee (which actually isn't much) anyway - you can earn that 700 point doin their dumb surveys or by eating ramen for like 3 days of the month.

Try eating ramen everyday.

[slwl1]

Many European countries are on par with third world countries, and 50% of the US population is classified as poor, ("poor" income levels are defined as double poverty levels), and many players are from Mexico and South America. In many categories the US IS a third world country. Our levels of economic disparity is only two countries above Rwanda...RWANDA!

er what? 50% american are classified as poor? if it is 50% then Americans should call themselves third world countries too LOL .

and mind you i m not sure about Americans but most Europe countries have perks once you are out of work.they would give a certain cash every month to those out of jobs depending on what position you are fired.if i m not mistaken is around 200 pounds every month*this i m not sure i m just making some numbers * i do think that Americans do have that too thats why they are called first world country

[JStoneheart]

Did you just insulted the United States of America and called it an ,,not developed country"? I should sue you right on the spot!

Where the hell did you get your so called ,,fact"? Got it out your .... whatever?
In fact, most of the Player COME from the USA or from EUROPE, some are from AUSTRALIA and a few from here and there.
USA isnt an non developed Country, nor is any country in Europe or Australia.

So where you got your ridiculous assumptions and numbers from?

Geeez those people now a days....

@Heim

sooooooooo +1!!! Can I build an Altar to honor you at Pron?

Are you stupid or what? When did I talked about US? I was talking about Latin America, most Asia, some parts of Europe (And I have no idea how many Africans play this game). I the only person I've insulted is YOU, right now, because you deserved it. Put your ego away for a second and realise that world's economy is broken, even US's, and it's not direcly people's fault but potiticians' and big companies'. Sadly, North Americans have being robbed for ages and is just now when you people is noticing it. I am Latin American and I support Occupy Wallstreet because it is affecting us all, even Europe, Asia and Australia.

I really hope you have your college expenses covered and NEVER owe a bank one cent. If you do, embrace yourself.

=====================================================

Besides all that, I really think iRO's economical problems would be solved if there was ANY advertisement over the internet, like private servers do, but iRO is sadly relying on "friend's inviting friends over" ONLY, and that's a HUGE marketing mistake.

I have no problem paying a montly fee since I learned about "Boku" recently and most Latin American players can use that paying method to get a VIP month, the problem is that less than 10% of players are informed about this since 1) most players NEVER visit these forums and 2) GM's don't even inform customers how all these methods work. If I want to sell, let's say, electronics, I have to make my clients interested and show them all the ways they have for paying.

for those who don't know: Boku let's you pay for WPE using your cellphone's credit. Dollar conversion is direct, so you are not being overcharged and most phone companies allow it.

Edited by JStoneheart, 09 January 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Heimdallr]

Then revert half of the monster changes that the "balance" patch brought with it. There is no incentive for people to make new characters when you have issues like http://forums.warppo...at-orc-village/ or http://forums.warppo...in-orc-village/ or bleeding in comodo dungeons. These are low level places that are mobby with aggressive monsters, even comodo dungeon is for 85-99 or so. Add in then the monsters hurting more in many places, especially in places you would level just after you change to 3rd class on top of the already poorly thought out skill tree progressions and you get people not wanting to continue to play. Yeah this is somewhat addressed with the turn ins, but finding / waiting for a party is no fun... again why bother to log in? There are very few parties outside of turn ins, and many people are not able to really solo effectively anymore due to all the changes = less players spending less time on the server.

Instead of making normal monsters harder and discouraging soloing the better idea would be to revert at least the monster changes ( leave the skill changes for the most part, mostly they are OK - not ideal but liveable ) and make event maps out of some of renewals "dead" maps, kind of like west orc village / overlook dungeon is but for higher level players. Make the monsters there much tougher with drastically higher EXP rewards, this will encourage parties, discourage soloers on these maps, and reward you if you CAN solo because you are completely loaded down with uber gears... just like everyone has been clamoring for since renewal hit. That way you have to best of both worlds, people can still solo the "slow" way if they can't find a party on and people will actively try to party for more than one turn in because it will actually be worthwhile to do.

This topic is treading on ground we have been avidly discussing here at the office. The turn-ins seem to be primary rather than supplementary gameplay, that isn't a huge issue per se but it may be flavoring reactions to other contents due to comparisons.

Too hard for low levels is a problem, we'll look over the bleeding or ridiculous skills on lower leveled monsters. So that won't be a part of my statements/questions here.

Making all areas too hard means there isn't a way for an undergeared soloer to play, that would be bad.
Making special areas with "hard versions" that is intended for party play sounds much more appealing and sensicle as it doesn't take away options for players. Such plans are in the works, we have a map expansion already planned to do just this.

Now to discuss the Turn-in situation more deeply, what do you feel is the problem? 1. The turn-ins are too high and I can't play that long? Or is it more of not liking the rewards? We do the Turnins in 400 chunks to maximize the killing time reward rather than walking time, but maybe soloers need something different. What would be different and beneficial to the soloer or low play time individual?

[Xellie]

Try eating ramen everyday.

I didn't say every day.

And you think I haven't? ;p

I've also lived on salt and pepper sandwiches for over a week. Prefer the ramen to be quite honest. I'm sure there are things you can give up to save $7 a month. a couple bottles soda, candy bar, junk food.... video games. Did you see what I did just there?

If it's really that bad I don't think complaining about a videogame should be at the top of your priority list.

My favourite version of this, is people who bought skyrim first week for the CE complaining about being poor. Yeah. No. (not aimed at anyone on this forum but relevant)

As I said. First world problems.

[Inubashiri]

...but maybe soloers need something different. What would be different and beneficial to the soloer or low play time individual?

This is something I could get into since I don't have the time for big parties or the desire for it either...as for something a soloer could do. I've always thought a TI would work too if you can control it for the individual and not give credit to the party so slaving can still be possible as well if needed. You could also maybe do like the Eden quests do or perhaps a hybrid of both like collecting items the monsters drop inaddition to killing them. This way we benefit from both leveling ourselves and get a bonus for going the extra mile.