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[Balance, Design, Appeal] Monks Really Need To Get Attention~


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#276 Vanillarox

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

All I'm saying is Steel Body is nothing to sneeze at. I just think that skill serves its purpose fine as is. In comparison Defender's bonuses don't really add up to much until you get the CoA set-- do mind that Warriors have the second lowest Defence and lowest HP (along with Knights) of the tanks.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't think you fully understand what a Monk's stats look like.

 

Let me explain why Steel Body is just okay and why we cannot remove it.

 

There is a reason we get 200% Defense on Steel Body. We use Cloth Armor. Without Steel Body I lose almost 30% (raw) in Defense. Now consider Earth Shield. +20% Defense value. Did you know that Earth Shield does not take Iron Skin (our defense passive) or Steel Body into the equation? I get a grand total of  2% Defense with this buff. I have a friend who is a Knight. He tanks for our parties often. With Earth Shield on, my defense is only a percent or two higher than his. He gets far more Dodge, Crit and Parry.

 

People like to think that Monks have the best defense. While we do, it is not by some great leap. It is by a few percent and we do lose in EVERY OTHER AREA SAVE FOR HP. We get no Agility AT ALL. I have to stack full AGI runes to get my 15% Crit and 12% Dodge.

 

Steel Body is extremely underpowered compared to Defense/Aura Shield. I wouldn't mind spending 5 more skill points to get 30% Dodge/Parry and 5% Damage Reduction.
 


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#277 Lukiner

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:58 AM

We get no Agility AT ALL. I have to stack full AGI runes to get my 15% Crit and 12% Dodge.

 

phew ~~ and I was afraid that I'm the only one that use AGI runes instead VIT runes on monk.... maybe I don't have tons of HP but the ability to crit ... sometimes... is so... nice :p_hi:


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#278 Vanillarox

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:00 AM

phew ~~ and I was afraid that I'm the only one that use AGI runes instead VIT runes on monk.... maybe I don't have tons of HP but the ability to crit ... sometimes... is so... nice :p_hi:

 

Too bad it does jack all in colo. I lose 10% Dodge and a massive amount of Crit. No point in AGI runes (or any runes for that matter) in colo.


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#279 Chocs

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:20 PM

Sorry, but I don't think you fully understand what a Monk's stats look like.

 

Let me explain why Steel Body is just okay and why we cannot remove it.

 

There is a reason we get 200% Defense on Steel Body. We use Cloth Armor. Without Steel Body I lose almost 30% (raw) in Defense. Now consider Earth Shield. +20% Defense value. Did you know that Earth Shield does not take Iron Skin (our defense passive) or Steel Body into the equation? I get a grand total of  2% Defense with this buff. I have a friend who is a Knight. He tanks for our parties often. With Earth Shield on, my defense is only a percent or two higher than his. He gets far more Dodge, Crit and Parry.

 

People like to think that Monks have the best defense. While we do, it is not by some great leap. It is by a few percent and we do lose in EVERY OTHER AREA SAVE FOR HP. We get no Agility AT ALL. I have to stack full AGI runes to get my 15% Crit and 12% Dodge.

 

Steel Body is extremely underpowered compared to Defense/Aura Shield. I wouldn't mind spending 5 more skill points to get 30% Dodge/Parry and 5% Damage Reduction.
 

Aura Armour is more or less nullified by Steel Body's 35% HP buff, and 200% DEF can account for Defender's 30% DEF/Dodge/Parry. You're getting the equivalent of two Warrior skills in one. Also, I thought we were comparing Monks to Warriors, not Knights. Did you know that Knights with their dinky little sword end up with higher attack power than tank Warriors? Knights are simply good all rounders by nature, that happen to have the highest base DEF and therefore benefit from ES the most.

 

I know that Monks use cloth armour. I have seen what Monk stats look like from here: http://forums.warppo...r-tank-classes/

 

From that thread is this awesome document: https://docs.google....p=sharing#gid=0

(have to point out Monks were given a different card set)

 

 

Yes they are squishy with Steel Body off, and don't benefit as much from % increase due to their low base stats. That is why I suggested up to 50% damage increase TSS debuff and high crit rate from Fury to make up for that disadvantage. That's an equivalent of ~3600 AP using the tank stats listed on the aforementioned comparison compared to the Swordsman's ~3000 AP.

 

I also think Monks should have more combined STR/INT than Swordsmen have STR.

 

But Steel Body is fine on its own, that's all I wanted to say.


Edited by Chocs, 10 October 2013 - 02:02 PM.

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#280 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

i was dueling a full colosseum knight in the death room and i almost killed him XD. then he used wind pot and ran away like the bitch he is

 

Monk powah. he used a executer undead and i used my cute mermaid lvl 1XD


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#281 Vanillarox

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:08 AM

Aura Armour is more or less nullified by Steel Body's 35% HP buff, and 200% DEF can account for Defender's 30% DEF/Dodge/Parry. You're getting the equivalent of two Warrior skills in one. Also, I thought we were comparing Monks to Warriors, not Knights. Did you know that Knights with their dinky little sword end up with higher attack power than tank Warriors? Knights are simply good all rounders by nature, that happen to have the highest base DEF and therefore benefit from ES the most.

 

I know that Monks use cloth armour. I have seen what Monk stats look like from here: http://forums.warppo...r-tank-classes/

 

From that thread is this awesome document: https://docs.google....p=sharing#gid=0

(have to point out Monks were given a different card set)

 

 

Yes they are squishy with Steel Body off, and don't benefit as much from % increase due to their low base stats. That is why I suggested up to 50% damage increase TSS debuff and high crit rate from Fury to make up for that disadvantage. That's an equivalent of ~3600 AP using the tank stats listed on the aforementioned comparison compared to the Swordsman's ~3000 AP.

 

I also think Monks should have more combined STR/INT than Swordsmen have STR.

 

But Steel Body is fine on its own, that's all I wanted to say.

 

There is much more to tanking than Defense. Dodge and Parry are crucial stats. When you Parry, you do take much less damage. Dodge? You avoid damage all together. Just stacking a class with massive amounts of Defense does not make them a superior tank. I think it is a gross overstatement to say that Steel Body is equivalent to Aura Armor and Defender. It's not. Having higher Defense is not always better than having Dodge/Parry. And while you can argue that raid bosses care not for Dodge and Parry due to being higher level than us (for reasons I still don't quite get) they are still vital stats in both PvM and PvP and it is a bit unfair that Monks miss out on these stats due poor gear scaling.

 

That chart alone reveals plenty. Look at the Monks Dodge, Crit and Attack Power. It's dreadful compared to the other classes.

 

Monk's STR/INT versus a Swordsmen STR. Warriors have more STR on their weapon than Monks have combined STR/INT on theirs and based on that AoD weapon, they seem to have nearly double the Attack Power on their weapon too. 579 ATK power on the AoD Knuckle? The Colo Knuckle is what? 478 ATK Power? Such a difference.

 

I will agree with you that Steel Body is fine how it is. It gives Monks what they lack. HP and Defense. But keep in mind, where Warriors and Knights have Aura Blade and Concentration/Rage, Monks have a 30 second uptime, 60 second downtime Fury Explosion. There is just no DPS build there. If Fury Explosion did grant Crit, it would certainly help out the class. The 50% damage increase debuff? That's a bit high. I'd rather our stats on gears just improve, rather than break us like that. If I do about 2-4k with Guillotine Fist (non-crit) to a player, I think a 40% increase would be too much. I don't want Monks to be OP, I just want us to be more balanced.


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#282 Meconopsis

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:14 AM

Alas, another monk has fallen. Carry on my suffering brothers and sisters.
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#283 Imhorny

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:05 AM

People like to think that Monks have the best defense. While we do, it is not by some great leap. It is by a few percent and we do lose in EVERY OTHER AREA SAVE FOR HP. We get no Agility AT ALL. I have to stack full AGI runes to get my 15% Crit and 12% Dodge.

 

 

15% is kinda low with all Agi?

My Main issue with monk is that we can not maintain threat with equally geared warriors or knights.1220qhd.jpg

nbt3ye.jpg


Edited by Imhorny, 12 October 2013 - 06:16 AM.

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#284 Lukiner

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:34 AM

15% is kinda low with all Agi?

My Main issue with monk is that we can not maintain threat with equally geared warriors or knights.1220qhd.jpg

nbt3ye.jpg

 

sooo with VIP + OP p2w title + endgame raid gear + enchanted AGI runes + GOD knows what more ... I will be able to have 22+% crit rate and max 24% dodge rate (in tank gear)? lol

 

I would like to see Warrior stats in same situation (VIP + OP p2w title + endgame raid gear + enchanted AGI runes + ...) in either dps or tank gear and see the difference in attack, crit, dodge, etc...

 

btw nice pokemon army you got there... do you even need to use monk skills with them? xD


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#285 Imhorny

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:20 PM

sooo with VIP + OP p2w title + endgame raid gear + enchanted AGI runes + GOD knows what more ... I will be able to have 22+% crit rate and max 24% dodge rate (in tank gear)? lol

 

I would like to see Warrior stats in same situation (VIP + OP p2w title + endgame raid gear + enchanted AGI runes + ...) in either dps or tank gear and see the difference in attack, crit, dodge, etc...

 

btw nice pokemon army you got there... do you even need to use monk skills with them? xD

 

Stats vary, but pretty much that plus all INT acc. Pets are life savers when building up threat, and those Pokemon battles man need more variety.


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#286 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:41 PM

Stats vary, but pretty much that plus all INT acc. Pets are life savers when building up threat, and those Pokemon battles man need more variety.

 

you are a disgrace for our kind


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#287 ChopChopz

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:14 PM

There is much more to tanking than Defense. Dodge and Parry are crucial stats. When you Parry, you do take much less damage. Dodge? You avoid damage all together. Just stacking a class with massive amounts of Defense does not make them a superior tank. I think it is a gross overstatement to say that Steel Body is equivalent to Aura Armor and Defender. It's not. Having higher Defense is not always better than having Dodge/Parry. And while you can argue that raid bosses care not for Dodge and Parry due to being higher level than us (for reasons I still don't quite get) they are still vital stats in both PvM and PvP and it is a bit unfair that Monks miss out on these stats due poor gear scaling.

 

That chart alone reveals plenty. Look at the Monks Dodge, Crit and Attack Power. It's dreadful compared to the other classes.

 

Monk's STR/INT versus a Swordsmen STR. Warriors have more STR on their weapon than Monks have combined STR/INT on theirs and based on that AoD weapon, they seem to have nearly double the Attack Power on their weapon too. 579 ATK power on the AoD Knuckle? The Colo Knuckle is what? 478 ATK Power? Such a difference.

 

I will agree with you that Steel Body is fine how it is. It gives Monks what they lack. HP and Defense. But keep in mind, where Warriors and Knights have Aura Blade and Concentration/Rage, Monks have a 30 second uptime, 60 second downtime Fury Explosion. There is just no DPS build there. If Fury Explosion did grant Crit, it would certainly help out the class. The 50% damage increase debuff? That's a bit high. I'd rather our stats on gears just improve, rather than break us like that. If I do about 2-4k with Guillotine Fist (non-crit) to a player, I think a 40% increase would be too much. I don't want Monks to be OP, I just want us to be more balanced.

 

Sure it is not equivalent, Steel body is SUPERIOR to aura armor and defender.

You does not seem to know much about tanking at all, have you tanked AoD and CoA all bosses legit?

Do you know knight and warrior can get one hit by AoD bosses and two hit by Ratmaster?

Monk is a pure tank class and has no DPS option, and they tank the best, that's how monk is.

Monk s not suppose to DPS just like rogue is not suppose to tank.

Knight and Warrior has both DPS and tank option, therefore they can be hybrid or even go full dps and not being a tank at all, but they can NEVER tank as well as equally geared Monk/BM, thats the tradeoff.

Just like Sorc has DPS and heal option, while priest is pure support, therefore sorc can always dps better than priest, but no priest will QQ about their DPS cannot catch up with sorc and sorc wont QQ they cannot heal as good as priest.

 

 

Dodge and parry is the least important and least reliable stat in tanking

HP, defense and CD damage reduction skills are the most important thing in tanking high end bosses, and Monk has the best.

 

I agree monk has the worst gear stat which is unfair and need to be fixed, they should get at least 100 more stat points in their end game gear.

But stop trying to QQ monk do not have war/knight's DPS. They are meant to have the least DPS because monk is most tanky.


Edited by ChopChopz, 12 October 2013 - 02:37 PM.

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#288 Imhorny

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

you are a disgrace for our kind

 

you sound like a warrior pretending to be a monk? I dunno?

 

Anyway, I would be happy if gravity upped the Fist's attack power, +1 weapon enhance adds so little


Edited by Imhorny, 12 October 2013 - 03:00 PM.

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#289 Ishvarna

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:11 PM


Dodge and parry is the least important and least reliable stat in tanking

HP, defense and CD damage reduction skills are the most important thing in tanking high end bosses, and Monk has the best.

 

I agree monk has the worst gear stat which is unfair and need to be fixed, they should get at least 100 more stat points in their end game gear.

But stop trying to QQ monk do not have war/knight's DPS. They are meant to have the least DPS because monk is most tanky.

 

Against single hits yes Dodge and Parry are less relevant than straight defense. For the long haul though they do make a difference, which more times than not is going to be the case when you're tanking raid bosses. And while I agree with you DPS isn't and shouldn't be the focus of a tank class you still have to have some means of consistently maintaining threat. All the defense, health and dodge in the world isn't going to mean jack if the boss suddenly decides that chewing on your flawless, rock-solid abs is pointless, and that the ranger blithely firing needles into its backside suddenly looks delicious.

 

The way tanks are designed in this game, they are essentially the pacemakers of a raid. The upper limit on how much dps the rest of the party can dish out without throwing the whole fight into chaos is directly proportional to how much threat the tank(s) can generate. Past a certain point the amount of DPS a tank can sacrifice in favor of being beefier starts to detract from your overall effectiveness.


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#290 ChopChopz

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

 

Against single hits yes Dodge and Parry are less relevant than straight defense. For the long haul though they do make a difference, which more times than not is going to be the case when you're tanking raid bosses. And while I agree with you DPS isn't and shouldn't be the focus of a tank class you still have to have some means of consistently maintaining threat. All the defense, health and dodge in the world isn't going to mean jack if the boss suddenly decides that chewing on your flawless, rock-solid abs is pointless, and that the ranger blithely firing needles into its backside suddenly looks delicious.

 

The way tanks are designed in this game, they are essentially the pacemakers of a raid. The upper limit on how much dps the rest of the party can dish out without throwing the whole fight into chaos is directly proportional to how much threat the tank(s) can generate. Past a certain point the amount of DPS a tank can sacrifice in favor of being beefier starts to detract from your overall effectiveness.

 

There are healers in raid to keep tanks alive, the long term damage taken is not a problem at all. What most important for tanks is to survive those strong attacks/Aoe occasionally done by bosses. Knight and Warrior die pretty easily against RM or AoD bosses, Monk and BM has much higher survivability.

 

As I said I agree monk gear need to get more stat which will boost their DPS.

But expecting a skill tree rework to make monk to have warrior/knight level dps makes no sense.

 


Edited by ChopChopz, 12 October 2013 - 05:19 PM.

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#291 Lukiner

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:37 AM

sooo today I decided to check stats of Crecentia colo weapons .....

 

i5EXR47.png

 

255 more Attack Power than Monk weapons and it have the same amount of STR/INT and VIT .... DA -_-?!

it's confirmed Gravity hates monks and they love lolis/shotas


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#292 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:03 PM

inb4 the excuse because: "monks have steel body and crescentias does not"

 

top lel


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#293 Vanillarox

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:27 PM

Sure it is not equivalent, Steel body is SUPERIOR to aura armor and defender.

You does not seem to know much about tanking at all, have you tanked AoD and CoA all bosses legit?

Do you know knight and warrior can get one hit by AoD bosses and two hit by Ratmaster?

Monk is a pure tank class and has no DPS option, and they tank the best, that's how monk is.

Monk s not suppose to DPS just like rogue is not suppose to tank.

Knight and Warrior has both DPS and tank option, therefore they can be hybrid or even go full dps and not being a tank at all, but they can NEVER tank as well as equally geared Monk/BM, thats the tradeoff.

Just like Sorc has DPS and heal option, while priest is pure support, therefore sorc can always dps better than priest, but no priest will QQ about their DPS cannot catch up with sorc and sorc wont QQ they cannot heal as good as priest.

 

 

Dodge and parry is the least important and least reliable stat in tanking

HP, defense and CD damage reduction skills are the most important thing in tanking high end bosses, and Monk has the best.

 

I agree monk has the worst gear stat which is unfair and need to be fixed, they should get at least 100 more stat points in their end game gear.

But stop trying to QQ monk do not have war/knight's DPS. They are meant to have the least DPS because monk is most tanky.

 

Please don't exaggerate.

 

Look at the stats please.

 

How the hell does a Monk tank Rat Master SO much better than a Knight when their Defense, on equal gear, is only a few percentage higher? I get that Monk has more HP and a BIT more Defense, but the lack of Dodge and weaker Parry hurts them in multiple situations. While yes, if a Monk gears for Hit/Haste/Vigor they do get more than Knights. I can agree that their CD on their damage mitigation skill is lower (plus they get a free refresh).

 

Sorry, but if Monks are MEANT to be tanks only, then why is the DPS role an option in the Find Party menu? Why do we get two flavour of gears (Hit/Haste/Vigor and Dodge/Parry) when one is clearly suited for tanking, while the other isn't so much? Why is Steel Body not a passive?

 

Monks have the potential to be DPS or Tanks. We just don't DPS that well at the moment for many reasons and we don't hold threat that well for many reasons.

 

Also I have no idea what kind of Warriors and Knights you party with. There are plenty of videos of Warriors tanking Rat Master and their HP doesn't dip that much. If your tank is dying in CoA, your healers are either dead or your tank isn't ready gear wise. Monks don't have that much more defense than a Knight. It's not like we're 10% higher or something.


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#294 Chocs

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

So I've started playing a friend's CoA geared Monk, and found that you don't need a Spirit Sphere to use Protection Ki :hmm: Hopefully I can learn more about this class and contribute better.

 

There is much more to tanking than Defense. Dodge and Parry are crucial stats. When you Parry, you do take much less damage. Dodge? You avoid damage all together. Just stacking a class with massive amounts of Defense does not make them a superior tank. I think it is a gross overstatement to say that Steel Body is equivalent to Aura Armor and Defender. It's not. Having higher Defense is not always better than having Dodge/Parry. 

Dodge/Parry don't do anything to DoTs. So while Defense isn't everything, having gobs of it sure helps. I'm sure you've come across killer boss DoTs before... A Warrior isn't going to deal with those very well on the long term (or rather, the Priests will have their hands full keeping them alive, and careless DPS will drop one by one). The higher HP modifier for SB sure helps with high burst damage too. Different means to the same end...

 

 The 50% damage increase debuff? That's a bit high. I'd rather our stats on gears just improve, rather than break us like that. If I do about 2-4k with Guillotine Fist (non-crit) to a player, I think a 40% increase would be too much. I don't want Monks to be OP, I just want us to be more balanced.

50% was a rough example to make the point, going by the fact Monks naturally have low Crit % and don't have scaling damage modifiers like Battle Tactics. Obviously we can tweak the raw numbers according to what's necessary.

 

And I thought Monks wanted more impact from their G-Fist, since they have the highest finisher CD and a broken stun effect. I don't see how it's worse than Warriors capable of doing +10k damage with a 20s CD finisher.


Edited by Chocs, 13 October 2013 - 10:18 PM.

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#295 ChopChopz

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:34 AM

Please don't exaggerate.

 

Look at the stats please.

 

How the hell does a Monk tank Rat Master SO much better than a Knight when their Defense, on equal gear, is only a few percentage higher? I get that Monk has more HP and a BIT more Defense, but the lack of Dodge and weaker Parry hurts them in multiple situations. While yes, if a Monk gears for Hit/Haste/Vigor they do get more than Knights. I can agree that their CD on their damage mitigation skill is lower (plus they get a free refresh).

 

Sorry, but if Monks are MEANT to be tanks only, then why is the DPS role an option in the Find Party menu? Why do we get two flavour of gears (Hit/Haste/Vigor and Dodge/Parry) when one is clearly suited for tanking, while the other isn't so much? Why is Steel Body not a passive?

 

Monks have the potential to be DPS or Tanks. We just don't DPS that well at the moment for many reasons and we don't hold threat that well for many reasons.

 

Also I have no idea what kind of Warriors and Knights you party with. There are plenty of videos of Warriors tanking Rat Master and their HP doesn't dip that much. If your tank is dying in CoA, your healers are either dead or your tank isn't ready gear wise. Monks don't have that much more defense than a Knight. It's not like we're 10% higher or something.

 

I can see you really have no idea about end game tanking.

Do you even know the difference between 55% and 50% def rate?

If a boss do an attack with 10k damage, 55% def rate = 4500 damage, 50% = 5000 damage, 40%= 6000 damage, you are taking 10% less damage than a knight all time, and you also have a lot more HP. And Protection Ki is much better than SF/Endure you can also refresh your cooldown.

Did you even tanked RatMaster or AoD? You think you know about the fight just by watching video? Do you know how hard RM hit with 4 energy core buff?

Do you know how many failures are there before they finally able to make it and is nice enough to be shown in a video? And do you know those vid are usually knight/warrior and healer with very very good gear(3 slot costumes, enhanced rune, refined weap and shield, blue card/card set) and sometimes even using explorer buff pot/graham pot?

A monk can tank as well or even better with lesser gear.

 

And i really LOLed at your logic.

Having a choice of hit vigor set/you can check DPS = DPS class??? Priest can also check DPS does that mean priest has a DPS role too?

If your answer is "no", you contradicted yourself.

If your answer is "yes", then go ahead and be a "DPS monk", and you can for sure have as much as or even more DPS than a "DPS Priest", (given that you use all DPS gear and acc), so stop QQ.

 

Go ahead and dream about monk will be a class that has mass taunt, has crowd control, has passive dodge increase, has battle tactics equivalent skill doing crazy crit, Asura with 100% accuracy and long stun, can DoT, can Self Heal, can save party members from AoE and can always maintain the highest threat while at the same time being a class that has highest defense, best damage mitigation skill and second highest HP.

 

Devs are listening to you for sure.


Edited by ChopChopz, 14 October 2013 - 06:09 AM.

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#296 Meconopsis

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:29 AM

Regardless, the lack of population the monk class has proves:

A) They're weak.
Or
B) Other classes can outperform it from its intended role.
Or
C) The skills the class has do not attract well due to being underpowered or lacking a uniqueness to it.

We can talk all day about the monk's numbers or skills, but the fact is there is about the same amount of Beastmaster players as there are Monks: which equates to very low.

Given that fact, the focus of the class balance-wise or not is how to make the class fun at what it does best. So... That's how it should be.
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#297 ChopChopz

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:45 PM

Regardless, the lack of population the monk class has proves:

A) They're weak.
Or
B) Other classes can outperform it from its intended role.
Or
C) The skills the class has do not attract well due to being underpowered or lacking a uniqueness to it.

We can talk all day about the monk's numbers or skills, but the fact is there is about the same amount of Beastmaster players as there are Monks: which equates to very low.

Given that fact, the focus of the class balance-wise or not is how to make the class fun at what it does best. So... That's how it should be.

 

I always support that monk needed buff/changed for the better.

But it is not a reason to make monk OP and has everything.

 

Back then monk is in a huge disadvantage because their extra denfensive power and extra HP is pretty much useless and they do not have much room to improve DPS. On the other hand, swordman can tank well enough and has much better ultilities and DPS and therefore is always preferred.

Moreover, because monk is weak in PvP they have a hard time in colo which cause them to be undergeared and make them appear very weak.

 

Now the end game raid is AoD, people cannot ignore it like how they ignored CoA because AoD gear is better than colo gear.
Swordman does not tank that well in AoD and the defensive power of Monk/BM is actually useful now.

Just like VIT used to be pretty much useless in raid even for tanks back then, but it is no longer the case in AoD.

 

Of course first of all devs have the fix the embus so that people has to do legit raid, otherwise if they cannot tank it they just embus it...

Many of the so called "legit runs" out there are still not 100% legit.

 

 

Monk still need to be fixed/improved. But if you want to help monk class you need to know about what is the strong point and weaknesses of your class and give viable suggestions.

One has to at least try some end game raids to show others you know about the class and establish credibility, otherwise it just look like QQing.


Edited by ChopChopz, 14 October 2013 - 12:59 PM.

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#298 Imhorny

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

Monk still need to be fixed/improved. But if you want to help monk class you need to know about what is the strong point and weaknesses of you class and give viable suggestions.

One has to at least try some end game raids to show others you know about the class and establish credibility, otherwise it just look like QQing.

 

Quote for truth


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#299 Vanillarox

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:11 PM

I can see you really have no idea about end game tanking.

Do you even know the difference between 55% and 50% def rate?

If a boss do an attack with 10k damage, 55% def rate = 4500 damage, 50% = 5000 damage, 40%= 6000 damage, you are taking 10% less damage than a knight all time, and you also have a lot more HP. And Protection Ki is much better than SF/Endure you can also refresh your cooldown.

Did you even tanked RatMaster or AoD? You think you know about the fight just by watching video? Do you know how hard RM hit with 4 energy core buff?

Do you know how many failures are there before they finally able to make it and is nice enough to be shown in a video? And do you know those vid are usually knight/warrior and healer with very very good gear(3 slot costumes, enhanced rune, refined weap and shield, blue card/card set) and sometimes even using explorer buff pot/graham pot?

A monk can tank as well or even better with lesser gear.

 

And i really LOLed at your logic.

Having a choice of hit vigor set/you can check DPS = DPS class??? Priest can also check DPS does that mean priest has a DPS role too?

If your answer is "no", you contradicted yourself.

If your answer is "yes", then go ahead and be a "DPS monk", and you can for sure have as much as or even more DPS than a "DPS Priest", (given that you use all DPS gear and acc), so stop QQ.

 

Go ahead and dream about monk will be a class that has mass taunt, has crowd control, has passive dodge increase, has battle tactics equivalent skill doing crazy crit, Asura with 100% accuracy and long stun, can DoT, can Self Heal, can save party members from AoE and can always maintain the highest threat while at the same time being a class that has highest defense, best damage mitigation skill and second highest HP.

 

Devs are listening to you for sure.

 

I can do the math. I understand that Monks take less damage. Tell me how Protection Ki is better than Shield Fortress against a boss? Being rooted while giving your entire team 25% more damage reduction sounds pretty sweet to me.

 

You must not be reading carefully. You seem to believe I want a Monk that can tank and also be the best DPS class. You seem to be unable to understand that I would like the choice between being DPS, Hybrid or a Tank. I get that you must be slightly stupid, so let me break this down for you.

 

Priest can be DPS built. They don't DPS as well because they have an amazing arsenal of support skills to supplement their survivability. Ever fought against a DPS Priest? They are quite amazing in PvP. Sorry but do Monks have an amazing array of skills to supplement their tanking? Let's count them.

 

Steel Body, Protection Ki and Flee.

 

That's three.

 

Usually a class has multiple skills.

 

Usually you are unable to max every skill.

 

When you think about every skill being maxed on a character, yes they do sound rather overpowered. How does a Sorc sound with Fire DoTs, maxed healing skills all points in the Lightning Tree, Water Tree and Fire Tree? Sounds a little overpowered doesn't it? Yeah. When you max every skill on any character they instantly sound more amazing. How about Monk? We can max everything, short of 17 skill points. We usually have points in everything.

 

With this Monk rework, do you think it will be possible to be the best DPS and the best tank? Use your head. No one is asking for Monk to have all of these skills and be able to get them all and max them. Would it be nice to have some crowd control? Yes, considering we cannot deal with crowds in any sense of the word. Being able to mass taunt? Don't even remember asking for that. Passive Dodge increase? Sure if we're not getting AGI from gears, we could use some Dodge as every other tank gets it. Battle Tactics equivalent? Don't remember asking for that, save for an off post to a user, in jest. Asura with 100% Accuracy and an ACCURATE stun time? Would be nice. If Asura has such a long cooldown, why should it be able to miss? Seems a little unfair that almost every class can burst three times while we burst once per minute. DoTs? Uh.. well if we can't slow someone, sure. We can use some ranged tactics. Say, doesn't a Warrior and a Knight get a DoT, that they can refresh? Save party members from AoE? Don't remember asking for that. Might be just you running with assumptions. Maintaining highest threat? As a tank, yes I should be able to. Problem? Highest defense? Yes we do. Doesn't scale well, but yeah, we do have it. Not as amazing as people pretend it is, but it is the highest. Best damage mitigation skill? Debatable. Best for me, not best for the party. Second Highest HP? Yeah.. we do have that. Problem?

 

I also like that you assume I don't do any end game raids. Spoilers: I do.

Once they raise the level cap and bosses are not longer 4 levels above us, we'll see how useful Monks are in the end game again.

There is no point in talking about end game. It's Embus. That is the end game. If you think Embus is going to be removed.. well that's about as likely as buffing a Monk's weapon. (Read: Never).


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#300 noobslayer48

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:09 PM

I can see you really have no idea about end game tanking.

Do you even know the difference between 55% and 50% def rate?

If a boss do an attack with 10k damage, 55% def rate = 4500 damage, 50% = 5000 damage, 40%= 6000 damage, you are taking 10% less damage than a knight all time, and you also have a lot more HP. And Protection Ki is much better than SF/Endure you can also refresh your cooldown.

Did you even tanked RatMaster or AoD? You think you know about the fight just by watching video? Do you know how hard RM hit with 4 energy core buff?

Do you know how many failures are there before they finally able to make it and is nice enough to be shown in a video? And do you know those vid are usually knight/warrior and healer with very very good gear(3 slot costumes, enhanced rune, refined weap and shield, blue card/card set) and sometimes even using explorer buff pot/graham pot?

A monk can tank as well or even better with lesser gear.

 

And i really LOLed at your logic.

Having a choice of hit vigor set/you can check DPS = DPS class??? Priest can also check DPS does that mean priest has a DPS role too?

If your answer is "no", you contradicted yourself.

If your answer is "yes", then go ahead and be a "DPS monk", and you can for sure have as much as or even more DPS than a "DPS Priest", (given that you use all DPS gear and acc), so stop QQ.

 

Go ahead and dream about monk will be a class that has mass taunt, has crowd control, has passive dodge increase, has battle tactics equivalent skill doing crazy crit, Asura with 100% accuracy and long stun, can DoT, can Self Heal, can save party members from AoE and can always maintain the highest threat while at the same time being a class that has highest defense, best damage mitigation skill and second highest HP.

 

Devs are listening to you for sure.

 

I like how you keep forgetting to add damage reduction in that math, that 5% really does make all the difference

 

tanking is simply more than paper math, yes they may survive a hit that no other tank could but its always more than just 1 hit now is it. before i switched to knight I thought long and hard about the pros and cons of tanking as a monk and when it gets down to it, monk is not a team player class which is the problem. say what you want but a party that is alive is better than a monk with 1k hp left with his whole team dead along with not even being able to buff the party.

 

monk being the best tank in the game? i highly doubt it, seems to me its just a filler class to make the class roster look like we have options. parry/dodge do matter but only if you hit the idea number which swordsman can hit. more so with warrior than knight but its still possible but the reason for that is it was designed for mob control which hit just as hard as the boss, monk is for tanking boss only and has skills to do that. however based on exp, def especially monks can only take you so far and that ain't far.


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