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[Balance, Design, Appeal] Monks Really Need To Get Attention~


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#301 ChopChopz

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:25 PM

You guys does not even seem to have ther idea of MT and OT.

Yes monk OT sucks, I agree, stop talking about mob/adds control, it was never my argument.

 

Ratmaster legit, Maya legit, Maya Purple legit, Ungoliant of Despair legit.

I am pretty sure if a person tanked them won't make those dumb statements about knight/warrior can MT better(or a monk cannot MT better).

I also like how you guys overrate SF and think like it is spammable and is always used to save party members and not knight themselves.

A knight MT would even have a hard time keeping himself alive, also Boss AoE/Random attack much more often than a knight (or even two knights) can SF.

Anyway talking to people who have no knowledge about end game raids is completely pointless.

 

 

I also like that you assume I don't do any end game raids. Spoilers: I do.

 

There is no point in talking about end game. It's Embus. That is the end game. If you think Embus is going to be removed.. well that's about as likely as buffing a Monk's weapon. (Read: Never).

 

Sure you do, with your embus.

Yes end game raid is embus, PvP is embus, WoE is embus, colo is also embus. Monk does not need to be fixed as long as they can summon embus.

 

So you believe monk class will never be fixed/changed just like embus.

So I can assume you are here not trying to help improving the class but simply QQ.

Ok, thanks for your time.


Edited by ChopChopz, 14 October 2013 - 11:36 PM.

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#302 Vanillarox

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:05 AM

You guys does not even seem to have ther idea of MT and OT.

Yes monk OT sucks, I agree, stop talking about mob/adds control, it was never my argument.

 

Ratmaster legit, Maya legit, Maya Purple legit, Ungoliant of Despair legit.

I am pretty sure if a person tanked them won't make those dumb statements about knight/warrior can MT better(or a monk cannot MT better).

I also like how you guys overrate SF and think like it is spammable and is always used to save party members and not knight themselves.

A knight MT would even have a hard time keeping himself alive, also Boss AoE/Random attack much more often than a knight (or even two knights) can SF.

Anyway talking to people who have no knowledge about end game raids is completely pointless.

 

 

 

Sure you do, with your embus.

Yes end game raid is embus, PvP is embus, WoE is embus, colo is also embus. Monk does not need to be fixed as long as they can summon embus.

 

So you believe monk class will never be fixed/changed just like embus.

So I can assume you are here not trying to help improving the class but simply QQ.

Ok, thanks for your time.

 

I am here to contribute to the discussion about balancing Monks. I personally do not believe that Monks will be buffed any time soon. I think it is as likely as Embus being nerfed. My belief aside, let's stay on topic.

 

There are videos of CoA N, H, AoD N, H done without a Monk at all. No one is claiming SF is spammable, but when used at the right time, it is rather handy. Like when Aromine lowers someone's defense with her purple AoE. SF helps a lot in that situation, even if it is not the Knight who has been inflicted. It can be used to help party members. When Aromine focuses her attention on someone else (for the big whip attack) SF (along with Assumptio) does help. It is a situational skill (as the Knight is rooted). Just because you don't party with Knights who use it appropriately, doesn't mean there aren't Knights that use it appropriately. Being able to lower everyone's damage by 25% and your own by 50% every two minutes (before Vigor) is pretty nice. Obviously they can't SF every single AoE, but they can SF often enough to be beneficial.

 

Knights and Warriors are team players. Their skills have great synergy with the party. Monk doesn't really help the party in any way, save for tanking the boss. While we can say this is a big help, the point is, Monks have no buffs, Monks have a hard time assisting party members in distress and Monks do not generate enough threat due to low ATK power and poor gear scaling. No one here is saying that Monks are not solid main tanks. They can hold a single target well enough, however their advantages aren't quite as attractive as the Swordsmen class'.

 

There is no build variety to a Monk. Their damage is low and they do not work well in teams. End game bosses only make Monk look good because design wise, bosses are several level above us. They lower our dodge/parry rating making HP and Defense (which still gets lowered) the most consistent tanking attributes. Once we get the level cap increase and bosses are once again at our level, we will see how well Monk stack ups (the new gear should be great, as our gear scales poorly, making the gap between Monks and other tanks even larger). However, the issues with Monk go farther than PvE. Due to a lack of Dodge and Crit, a Monk's burst damage is not very good. Due to our low attack power and lack of any real mobility, PvP is quite the pain. Because we have no DPS option, we are forced to enter PvP under tank spec (or try for a DPS build, leading to little success).

 

We do not do as well in PvP as the Swordsmen classes. Our damage is too low and we are unable to successfully catch up to our opponent. When dealing with melee characters (particularly squishy ones) our only hope is to use two Guillotine Fists in a row, hoping they do not miss and that they actually finish him/her off (hoping they do not parry it). Aside from that, we just have to do the typical melee maneuvers and try to win. In a group PvP setting, this means we can only effectively take down a single target every two minutes (before vigor). Nothing is stopping us from being kited. Due to having no viable knockdown or stuns, we have no real.. strategy against melee characters. It's just move around them and attack, use Protection Ki when you foresee a burst skill coming.

 

What we are primarily asking for, as a whole, is some better off tanking capabilities, some party support and the OPTION to spec for DPS and be successful at it. The thing is, Monks don't tank well enough above Knights/Warriors to warrant them being pure tanks. I think the overall design of the Monk class is flawed.

 


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#303 Chocs

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:30 AM

[...] a monk with 1k hp left with his whole team dead [...]

For what it's worth... a friend of mine witnessed something like this.

 

The Monk proceeded to shave off 200k of RM H's remaining HP alone, with no support behind him. Kafra pots maybe? I believe this was before AoD came out and Embus wasn't a raid requirement.


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#304 ChopChopz

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:34 AM

I am here to contribute to the discussion about balancing Monks. I personally do not believe that Monks will be buffed any time soon. I think it is as likely as Embus being nerfed. My belief aside, let's stay on topic.

 

There are videos of CoA N, H, AoD N, H done without a Monk at all. No one is claiming SF is spammable, but when used at the right time, it is rather handy. Like when Aromine lowers someone's defense with her purple AoE. SF helps a lot in that situation, even if it is not the Knight who has been inflicted. It can be used to help party members. When Aromine focuses her attention on someone else (for the big whip attack) SF (along with Assumptio) does help. It is a situational skill (as the Knight is rooted). Just because you don't party with Knights who use it appropriately, doesn't mean there aren't Knights that use it appropriately. Being able to lower everyone's damage by 25% and your own by 50% every two minutes (before Vigor) is pretty nice. Obviously they can't SF every single AoE, but they can SF often enough to be beneficial.

 

Knights and Warriors are team players. Their skills have great synergy with the party. Monk doesn't really help the party in any way, save for tanking the boss. While we can say this is a big help, the point is, Monks have no buffs, Monks have a hard time assisting party members in distress and Monks do not generate enough threat due to low ATK power and poor gear scaling. No one here is saying that Monks are not solid main tanks. They can hold a single target well enough, however their advantages aren't quite as attractive as the Swordsmen class'.

 

There is no build variety to a Monk. Their damage is low and they do not work well in teams. End game bosses only make Monk look good because design wise, bosses are several level above us. They lower our dodge/parry rating making HP and Defense (which still gets lowered) the most consistent tanking attributes. Once we get the level cap increase and bosses are once again at our level, we will see how well Monk stack ups (the new gear should be great, as our gear scales poorly, making the gap between Monks and other tanks even larger). However, the issues with Monk go farther than PvE. Due to a lack of Dodge and Crit, a Monk's burst damage is not very good. Due to our low attack power and lack of any real mobility, PvP is quite the pain. Because we have no DPS option, we are forced to enter PvP under tank spec (or try for a DPS build, leading to little success).

 

We do not do as well in PvP as the Swordsmen classes. Our damage is too low and we are unable to successfully catch up to our opponent. When dealing with melee characters (particularly squishy ones) our only hope is to use two Guillotine Fists in a row, hoping they do not miss and that they actually finish him/her off (hoping they do not parry it). Aside from that, we just have to do the typical melee maneuvers and try to win. In a group PvP setting, this means we can only effectively take down a single target every two minutes (before vigor). Nothing is stopping us from being kited. Due to having no viable knockdown or stuns, we have no real.. strategy against melee characters. It's just move around them and attack, use Protection Ki when you foresee a burst skill coming.

 

What we are primarily asking for, as a whole, is some better off tanking capabilities, some party support and the OPTION to spec for DPS and be successful at it. The thing is, Monks don't tank well enough above Knights/Warriors to warrant them being pure tanks. I think the overall design of the Monk class is flawed.

 

 

Sorry Aromine is not in the list because it is way too easy. Even easier than the culvert band legit.

I did not say knight/warrior cannot tank RM or AoD, they sure could. But knight/war being able to tank RM does not mean they tank better than monk, MT and OT is different.

A monk can MT RM/AoD as well with lesser gear. Maybe you do not know and would not believe because you never tried that.

Knight/Warrior is way better OT than monk, and monk is better MT than Knight/Warrior(but only when fighting against the toughest bosses in game).

 

Being able to keep yourself alive is helping the party. No matter how well warrior/knight can help the party if they are dead it just lead to party wipe. Also please don't talk like when you have a monk in raid you cannot have another swordman.

 

While 2 monks in raid is just terrible and 2 knights are much better

but Monk + Knight/Monk + Warrior is better than Knight + Warrior/2 Warriors/2 Knights

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of players aware of this, even monks themselves, which is pathetic.

 

Yes there are a lot of room to improve the class.

But you guys also underestimated what monk is capable to do. Monk class is broken in many ways but it is not weak.


Edited by ChopChopz, 15 October 2013 - 10:01 AM.

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#305 Vanillarox

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:39 AM

Sorry Aromine is not in the list because it is way too easy. Even easier than the culvert band legit.

I did not say knight/warrior cannot tank RM or AoD, they sure could. But knight/war being able to tank RM does not mean they tank better than monk, MT and OT is different.

A monk can MT RM/AoD as well with lesser gear. Maybe you do not know and would not believe because you never tried that.

Knight/Warrior is way better OT than monk, and monk is better MT than Knight/Warrior(but only when fighting against the toughest bosses in game).

 

Being able to keep yourself alive is helping the party. No matter how well warrior/knight can help the party if they are dead it just lead to party wipe. Also please don't talk like when you have a monk in raid you cannot have another swordman.

 

While 2 monks in raid is just terrible and 2 knights are much better

but Monk + Knight/Monk + Warrior is better than Knight + Warrior/2 Warriors/2 Knights

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of players aware of this, even monks themselves, which is pathetic.

 

Yes there are a lot of room to improve the class.

But you guys also underestimated what monk is capable to do. Monk class is broken in many ways but it is not weak.

 

Aromine was used as an example of when SF can be used successfully. I wasn't trying to imply she was hard (she is rather easy, especially if pulled away from the center). I am not trying to say a Monk does not tank end bosses well. I am aware that Dodge/Parry mean little when you're up against bosses four levels above you. HP and Defense are more consistent (HP being the most consistent). I think we can agree on this. Monks are the most sturdy tanks. They have the best defense and second highest HP. In terms of utility and physical strength, they are lacking. I personally don't think the extra durability of a Monk warrants the severe lack in ATK power and stats on gears. I suppose it is envy. Warriors/Knights can be OT or MT or DPS and do it quite well. Monks can't really OT. Monks can't DPS well. Monks are pretty much forced to be a main tank. Unlike Priest who is forced to be support, they can excel with damage in PvP, giving them some versatility.

 

I just want to clarify that I do agree with you on Monk's being the most durable. However, as the game progresses, we're noticing that our gear is simply not keeping up. Other classes are progressing at a faster rate. Monk only looks good end game because bosses are so overleveled that it drops the efficiency of the other important stats. Once the level cap is raised and bosses are brought down to our level, Monks will lose that MT appeal as Warriors and Knights are able to keep up.

 

That is why I think we need a balance patch to allow Monks to fill different roles SHOULD THEY BUILD THAT WAY. I understand that DPS on Beastmaster is not good. However I do not know enough about them to comment. I will stick to Monk vs Knight/Warrior. Ideally if a Monk is DPS speced, they will not be the best tank. If they are tank built, they will not be the best DPS (rightfully so). If they go Hybrid, they will tank well enough and DPS well enough. I understand that on paper, a Monk has the best defense and the thought of them doing more damage is scary. How do you deal with a class that hits hard and takes hard hits? Well with this patch we are proposing, we are asking that Monks get the option. We want to be able to OT. We want to be able to DPS. We want our gear to make a difference when we advance in tiers. We want the option. We do not want to do it all at once (though it'd be sweet).

 

Which is why the proposed skills in the opening post are very favourable. While not explicitly specified, we are not expecting to be able to DPS like a Rogue and Tank like a Monk. We want to be able to pick and choose the appropriate skills. The proposed OT skills would give us some variety. Some options. As it stands, Monks are all built very much the same, due to an excess of skill points in a limited skill tree. Options. That's what we want.
 


Edited by Vanillarox, 15 October 2013 - 12:06 PM.

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#306 Zechrem

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:08 PM

Well dps = threat build up. At essentially half base weapon power (taking into account of upgrades) your threat, or ability to be a main tank, starts going down considerably compared to the other tank classes. Are they not supposed to do as much dps? Well no kidding its called balance but if you look at stat distribution and equipment balance it is in no way balanced with higher end equipment with upgrades. It doesn't need to be a substantial buff but maybe add a higher % ratio on monk weapons overall. Monks lose a chunk of their main stats (compared to other classes) and also lose one stat completely. Some say its negligible but 140 agi from equipment is not nothing.

 

Oh and the comment about the monk that shaved off RM at 200k till death. It woulda been faster on a knight or warrior and was done with P2W buff potions. All tanks can survive with those buffs on.


Edited by Zechrem, 15 October 2013 - 12:10 PM.

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#307 Chocs

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

I do think that Monks should have really high, single target burst DPS, even better than a Sorcerer even. Like, if they could one shot an equally geared DPS I will have no complaints at all. After all, you can see Guillotine Fist coming from a mile away (when you see Fury activated).

 

The gear scaling problem... for a developer should be really easy to deal with IMO. Just change the numbers like how Crescentias got fixed.

 

Tanking wise however, they are pretty sound aside from the DPS they're missing.

 

Oh and the comment about the monk that shaved off RM at 200k till death. It woulda been faster on a knight or warrior and was done with P2W buff potions. All tanks can survive with those buffs on.

Were you that Monk? Your name looks familiar.


Edited by Chocs, 15 October 2013 - 03:06 PM.

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#308 5344130512045108620

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:46 PM

For what it's worth... a friend of mine witnessed something like this.

 

The Monk proceeded to shave off 200k of RM H's remaining HP alone, with no support behind him. Kafra pots maybe? I believe this was before AoD came out and Embus wasn't a raid requirement.

 

I saw a video where a warrior did the same thing alone. Used willow pet.


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#309 Chocs

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:43 AM

I saw a video where a warrior did the same thing alone. Used willow pet.

Willow pet though...

 

I think Zechrem is the Monk my friend partied with. Have you done this before, Zech? :hmm:


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#310 Imhorny

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:18 AM

Willow pet though...

 

I think Zechrem is the Monk my friend partied with. Have you done this before, Zech? :hmm:

 

Yeah, that was him, he soloed RMH at the end.


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#311 IXGHOSTXI

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:38 AM

LOL! who ever made this thread is either a noob or just have no idea about other class. all of the things you are asking for here are skills that are in a BM. bm have low deff but high hp perma reduce damage and all. now if you gear up a bm with hp and parry it becomes almost invincible but other players that have full set high equips can par with a BM, only player that is in par with my BM atm is Intramuros of ICE, now in my guild Galajuan we have a very strong monk that have 1k deff hp on my 14k bm and can hit like a train, he can win some fights against me and he is geared enough. if you want to change anything on a monk just ask for a skill that can slow a target since thats all you need to balance the game. please noobs if you havent even got your full set and +9 runes including 3 slot costumes then dont even post crap here that you dont really know about. end game for any class is balanced you people just dont know how to play. btw i also have a lvl 50 monk named IXASURAXI. these noobs are hopeless wont even try to gear up and hoping to become stronger than players who had spent countless hours to be on top. pshhhh!


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#312 Lukiner

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

if you want to change anything on a monk just ask for a skill that can slow a target since thats all you need to balance the game. please noobs if you havent even got your full set and +9 runes including 3 slot costumes then dont even post crap here that you dont really know about. end game for any class is balanced you people just dont know how to play. btw i also have a lvl 50 monk named IXASURAXI. these noobs are hopeless wont even try to gear up and hoping to become stronger than players who had spent countless hours to be on top. pshhhh!

rDtj9lp.png?1

hue hue hue hue

 

 

 

this post made my day

 


Edited by Lukiner, 21 October 2013 - 10:52 AM.

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#313 pollenpetal

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:28 PM

I suggest to change the damage calculation for SP usage(Like RO1). Asura Strike = Total SP + initial damage + Skill % damage to the equation. So that the WISDOM will have its use.


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#314 Zechrem

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:52 PM

LOL! who ever made this thread is either a noob or just have no idea about other class. all of the things you are asking for here are skills that are in a BM. bm have low deff but high hp perma reduce damage and all. now if you gear up a bm with hp and parry it becomes almost invincible but other players that have full set high equips can par with a BM, only player that is in par with my BM atm is Intramuros of ICE, now in my guild Galajuan we have a very strong monk that have 1k deff hp on my 14k bm and can hit like a train, he can win some fights against me and he is geared enough. if you want to change anything on a monk just ask for a skill that can slow a target since thats all you need to balance the game. please noobs if you havent even got your full set and +9 runes including 3 slot costumes then dont even post crap here that you dont really know about. end game for any class is balanced you people just dont know how to play. btw i also have a lvl 50 monk named IXASURAXI. these noobs are hopeless wont even try to gear up and hoping to become stronger than players who had spent countless hours to be on top. pshhhh!

 

We'll I did mention END GAME. That is considering the scaling unbalance that is in the game itself. I don't think there needs to be too many skill changes (cause then you get the old RO1 oh look everyone has the same damn skill result. What I mean by this is that every classes basically turns into every other class. There should be some inherent "unique" traits for each class.)

 

People were asking about balance. Not necessarily crying about "omg gimme easy crap fast and make me op." Did you not understand the whole definition of the word BALANCE? Also my gripe is about RELATIVE balance. Not to make every class equal because that would pull away from the "uniqueness" of each class. Ex: knights are all rounders, warriors have higher parry, etc, etc,....

 

For arguments sake I have knight, warrior and monk. Oh herp derp can't play them? Won colo consecutively on them and it is so hilarious on how much easier it is on a knight and warrior (in relation to melee classes) although I have to admit... BM is more annoying. Was also easier on duels because of the mechanics of those classes.

 

Also have played my friend's sorc, wiz and ranger... and enough said about those classes... but they are DPS classes so it really isn't a topic to bring up.

 

As for your rune argument... again .. scaling. If class A has a 30% bonus and you catch up through those runes... WTF do you think will happen if they do the same.... OH that's right they still have 30% on top of your stats (ok 30% is a bit of a exaggeration but you get what im saying.)

 

 

For what it's worth... a friend of mine witnessed something like this.

 

The Monk proceeded to shave off 200k of RM H's remaining HP alone, with no support behind him. Kafra pots maybe? I believe this was before AoD came out and Embus wasn't a raid requirement.

 

 

And yea did tank RM... but its also cause (before pets anyhow).

....

I had 2 sets of colo gear that I swapped out that allowed me to pot a second faster and refresh cds faster inbetween hits. Smarter not harder people.


Edited by Zechrem, 22 October 2013 - 06:56 PM.

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#315 Meconopsis

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:30 PM

LOL! who ever made this thread is either a noob or just have no idea about other class. all of the things you are asking for here are skills that are in a BM. bm have low deff but high hp perma reduce damage and all. now if you gear up a bm with hp and parry it becomes almost invincible but other players that have full set high equips can par with a BM, only player that is in par with my BM atm is Intramuros of ICE, now in my guild Galajuan we have a very strong monk that have 1k deff hp on my 14k bm and can hit like a train, he can win some fights against me and he is geared enough. if you want to change anything on a monk just ask for a skill that can slow a target since thats all you need to balance the game. please noobs if you havent even got your full set and +9 runes including 3 slot costumes then dont even post crap here that you dont really know about. end game for any class is balanced you people just dont know how to play. btw i also have a lvl 50 monk named IXASURAXI. these noobs are hopeless wont even try to gear up and hoping to become stronger than players who had spent countless hours to be on top. pshhhh!

 

All I can read from this post is that you're bragging about yourself and your guild Galajuan... Then involving somebody outside without his/her consent?

 

And yeah I made this thread. So I guess I have no idea how this class works. -sarcasm-


Edited by Meconopsis, 22 October 2013 - 07:31 PM.

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#316 NuwaChan

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

Zanbee answered my question today in the Q and A on twitch, when asked about the ideas in this thread. She basically said:

 

  • This thread has grown like crazy.
  • They have sent the ideas in this thread to the Devs and monitor this thread.
  • In Dec there is going to be a major update which will overhaul some classes (monks being one of them)

Edited by NuwaChan, 23 October 2013 - 05:22 PM.

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#317 meyli34

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:48 AM

<p>

Zanbee answered my question today in the Q and A on twitch, when asked about the ideas in this thread. She basically said:

  • This thread has grown like crazy.
  • They have sent the ideas in this thread to the Devs and monitor this thread.
  • In Dec there is going to be a major update which will overhaul some classes (monks being one of them)
Yohohohohohohohohoho, now lets wait and see what change will be made.
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#318 Lukiner

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:37 AM

 

Zanbee answered my question today in the Q and A on twitch, when asked about the ideas in this thread. She basically said:

 

  • This thread has grown like crazy.
  • They have sent the ideas in this thread to the Devs and monitor this thread.
  • In Dec there is going to be a major update which will overhaul some classes (monks being one of them)

 

 

December T_T this will be long November full of waiting and hype.... hope that it will end with serious changes/rework/buffs not small 1~3 changes  ;p
 

@let's pray for badass visual rework of monk weapons that will be visible on both hands ...


Edited by Lukiner, 24 October 2013 - 06:05 AM.

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#319 meyli34

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:33 AM

@let's pray for badass visual rework of monk weapons that will be visible on both hands ...

Hope too, aod and coa/colo looks weird, and all low level are pretty much the same
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#320 Ryvian

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:51 AM

Thumbs up for any kind of buff/rework.


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#321 Leinzan

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:53 AM

Hmm, Monks rework... as in... they get removed? Knowing WP and the lazy Devs... it is very possible...

A WAY TO HOPE FOR THE BEST IS HOPING FOR THE WORSE!!

>-<!!!

 

@Lukiner:

Maybe a bit off topic but in your signature you should remove the check mark on the Pets Immune Bosses :V

It hadn't happened yet.


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#322 Meconopsis

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:54 AM

Brace yourselves...

The hype meter awaits in December?
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#323 Vanillarox

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:47 PM

It's good to hear some news about Monks. Let's hope this balance is everything we hope it is!


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#324 Greven79

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:04 AM

Although I commented this in another threat, I repeat it here as well:

 

No buff

Not an issue. Did you ever skipped the second priest, because he won't add another party buff? Did you do the same with a Warrior and a Knight together in one raid? Or bypassing the 2nd Sorc to get the Soulmaker buff instead? Do you really mean that if you have 600 STR, the 10% STR buff grants such a great bonus? (BTW: its +2.8% parry, +120 Physical attack value).

 

No Agi:

Rather than AGI, you get an additional boni from INT instead. This is an replacement. Usually titles, cards, etc give a bonus to multiple stats, so the monk profits twice. Whining about the lack of AGI feels a bit short-thoughted to me, as you can always put less stat points into STR instead.

In addition, AGI is only useful if your AttackPower is above 2.2k. Since it takes 11 points in AGI to get a 44 bonus to Crit. Chance and 44 means +1%, it's equal useful than getting +11 on strength instead, which means +22 AttackPower or +1% if your BaseAttack is 2.2k.

 

No Self-Heal:

It''s a compromise. That's why you get Summon Spirit Sphere instead. This cooldown-reset it unique to all tanking classes and with it, you can use your damage prevention skills more often. All in all, in a raid where Aromine deals up to 3k damage with a single whip attack, I believe that being able to use a 50% damage reduction skill outweights a lowsy heal ability.

 

BTW: I always mention this, because people seem to be unable to count it well...... what is better:

Knight: 18% every 20sec (uses 3 aura)

Warrior: 60% every 120sec (or 54% if you use it with 90 rage (=9 Aura)) distrubuted over 20sec

 

So if the Knight uses the Aura Heal 3 times in a row, he can heal himself by 54% over 60sec or 108% over 120sec. So which skill sucks???? Really the Knight skill?

Added: A Knight with ~7000 HP heals the same amoiunt as a Master Red Potion by using his skill (usable every 20sec). Sounds unfair, right?

 

No Crowd Control:

Although Knights don't want to accept it, they are Off-Tanks. Since we all agree on this for the Warrior, it leaves the Beastmaster and Monk as Main Tanks.

Main Tanks however don't need Crowd control, since they usually soak the damage of the main boss and ignore the adds. The role of the Offtank classes however is to prevent the mob to ever reach the support classes / characters.

 

That's why both the Warrior and the Knight have Mass Provoke and decent 10-target AoE skills.

 

On contrast, the Main Tanks have more HP than Off-tanks and more extreme damage prevention skills (Beastmaster = 100% damage reduction for 10sec || Monk = 50% damage reduction combined with Summon Spirit Sphere to use it more often).

 

All tanking classes have their usual 3-target AoE Skills:

 

Warrior and Knight = Magnum Break

Beastmaster = Beast Tornado

Monk = Lightning Crush

 

In addition, the Monk benefits from another skill: Heavy Tackle. This is another skill that allows to hit multiple targets and even deal a hell lot of damage.

 

So if compared to the other MainTank class - the Beastmaster, you'll see that you actually have a better croud control.

 

No Damage over Time:

Actually, I don't think this is such a big issue. If you really depend on DoT to keep the treat up, you're doing something wrong (or other classes have superior gear). F.e. if a Knight has 2.5k Attack Power, the only DoT deals between 7%-10%, this means 175-250 damage every other second... ergo 87-125 damage per second. So do you really think that this is essential, welll.... leaves me speechless.

 

Permanent -10% Attack Power:

This is comparable to the Warrior Defender skill. If you want to take the defensive role, you have to accept a damage debuff. That's not that special. Defender also got this -10% damage adjustion.... and overall, the Knight does the same, but with gear not with a skill. The shield grants ~40% defense bonus, but the damage output of a Knight weapon compared to a Warrior weapon is lower (f.e. 659 vs. 829 = ~20% damage debuff). The beastmaster doesn't have such a debuff, but he can't profit from the damage bonus from the Bear Form any more.

 

Damage is bad:

That's simply not true. I tested this as well (Warrior vs. Monk). The monk could compete. (We both have a Main-Tank build) this means that my Warrior has Aura Armor, Parry, Endure and Defender. But maybe this depends on certain stat builds, cards, runes, etc., but it was nearly the same.

 

Let's compare it on skill base:

Raging Blow vs. Bash => both at 25%

Heavy Tackle vs. Aura Strike => 47% vs. 45% (24% + 3x 7%)

Crushing Blow vs. Bowling Bash => both at 21%

Fury Explosion vs. Berserk => 20% vs. 30%; same cooldown (Warrior receives 10% more damage)

 

So it goes down to:

Rage Strike: 90% damage, cooldown 20sec; consumes 50 rage

Asura Strike: 120% damage, cooldown 60sec, 3 spheres are consumed by Fury Explosion instead

 

Well, Rage Strike might sound great but it isn't. It has a longer animation time than Aura Strike, so the additional animation time eats up most of the damage advantage. Hitting multiple targets is useless against bosses, so I prefer to perform a double Aura Strike (45% + 38% = 83%). Asura Strike on the other hand doesn't require any spheres, since the cost is in the Fury Explosion instead.

 

The Monk weapon deals less damage (404 vs. 829 [Warrior]) or (404 vs. 659 [Knight]), but he also has the much higher attack speed.

 

However, both Knight and Warrior have an inbalanced skill called Battle Tactics. With the right gear, I can have 30% crit. chance and 200+ INT. Therefore I have a 30% chance for +80% damage... or in other words an always active 24% overall damage increase by spending 2 skill points. This is by far better than Berserk (+20%, but +10% damage taken; usable for 30sec every 60sec). Compare it with any non-BattleTactics builds and you'll see that the damage output is quite fine. Since the BT builds abuses the lvl 50 cap, rather fix that skill than fiddling around the Monk overall damage.

 

Battle Tactics and a high crit. chance can make it hard for the Monk early on, especially if the Assura Strike is a miss.

 

Gear is bad:

Gear isn't bad.

 

Colo Armor:

Warrior: STR 118; AGI 13; WIS 31; VIT 119; Dodge 76; Parry 31

Monk: STR+INT 110; WIS 31; VIT 119; Dodge 76; Parry 31

 

I wouldn't call this "bad". STR and INT mean the same, so you can just add both values to compare the gear.

 

Your suggestions:

... are all aweful in my opinion and address more Colo-specific dislikes than actually comparing / balancing classes. My Warrior hasn't any movement boni either or can put any movement debuff on opponents. My Warrior has to use an aweful jump attack that forces me to stand still and select a red circle in a blue circle instead.... a bugged teleport attack is still better. My Warrior doesn't have any ranged attack at all. The Warrior Bowling Bash also has an ugly animation and doesn't deal more damage. My Warrior has NO skill that resets Provoke at all.

 

In addition, lets compare the three variants:

Knight: 20% damage reduction; 10sec duration; 60sec cooldown

Warrior: 40% chance for half damage; 10sec duration; 60sec cooldown

Monk: 20% chance for zero damage; 10sec duration; 60sec cooldown

 

Now tell me what makes you think that a monk should get a 40% dodge bonus instead?

 

Final notes:

Well, it seems that ppl just don't understand the concept behind a monk... or simply ignore it Yes, the Monk has no AGI, but you can compensate this by distributing stat points in another way. A card set bonus or title grants +28 to all stat is basically +56 STR for the Monk. Yes, the Monk lacks a few things, but he compensates it in other ways (Healing vs. Summon Spirit Sphere f.e.).

 

So maybe they could redesign both the Knight and the Monk by switching their roles => Knight = Main Tank; Monk = Offtank... maybe people would like this more because the image of a Monk is defined this way.

__________________________________

 

If I were to change a few things, than I would do the following changes to all tank classes:

 

Parry, Flee, Aura Shield => 30sec duration

 

This would make the defensive skills more comparable to the offensive variants (Berserk, Concentration, Fury Explosion).

 

Endure, Shield Fortress, Ki-Explosion => 6sec duration, 40sec cooldown

 

This is an adjustment that follows the above improvement to Parry and co. The duration is reduced to match it with other durations like Frost Driver f.e.

 

Provoke, Intimidate, Beast Roar => grant an additional threat bonus, a 10sec damage debuff on the target and a 5sec confusion/silence debuff.

 

Rather than a static defensive skill that grants additional threat for no reasons known, this should come from the regular use of this Provoke skills instead.


Edited by Greven79, 28 October 2013 - 08:13 AM.

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#325 mysticalre

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:48 AM

Parry, Flee, Aura Shield => 30sec duration

 

This would make the defensive skills more comparable to the offensive variants (Berserk, Concentration, Fury Explosion).

 

who cares about monk's higher def when you want to give Knights a 30 seconds (60s cd) aura shield (20% dmg reduction). You're screwing Monks over even more, because Flee is crap, and while Parry is good, warriors reach the parry cap fairly easily

 

doing this removes their edge over knights completely

 

you can never ever compare defensive skills to offensive skills. Defensive stats cap out at 70%, offensive skills can be stacked to continue increasing forever (+30% dmg skill here, +10% STR buff there, +10% guild skills here, new OP p2w title released there, etc.)


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