136 replies to this topic

[Themes]

We could be getting pretty close to having that argument I guess.

 

I dont see any issue with KVM gear as long as the BGs themselves are not exploitable and that the badges never ever ever ever get close to any form of KP purchased boxes. This would make them valuable and time consuming enough to obtain. It would also encourage people to play the game a little more outside of siege. Hell if your fancy pvp tourneys get popular enough I could see badge rewards (small/medium amounts, possibly just for participating) being okay, as long as there was enough regular participants and the same group of people isnt winning every single week.

 

Im curious about when you have plans to implement the rest of the content we're still expecting and what you have planned after that. We're still short New World and all that comes along with that and you've expressed interest at implementing some of the Renewal maps if you can manage it. Which would be super cool, especially if the monsters were actually balanced a little for classic, in a way that made them tougher than what you'd normally get but rewarding enough to make them worth the effort.

[needmorezleep]

+10 glorious bow plz rip woe with op fas

[AlmrOfAtlas]

+10 glorious bow plz rip woe with op fas

 

Yes plz. Also my +10 Glorious Gladius so I can kick>sm spam force to bleeding status and silence everyone I touch plz.

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 21 July 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[Xellie]

I disagree, KvM equipment is a vital part of the meta-game that is missing on the current classic server, which has led to the trend of almost exclusively using biochemists and champs for damage dealing.  KvM armor is excellent at reducing the damage from those two classes, and not so great at reducing damage from other sources with it's 0 defense and magic defense, and KvM weapons open up more possibilities for doing reasonable damage for more damage-challenged classes outside of god items and MvP cards.  

 

The best part about it all is that the time requirements are high for the good items, and they are account bound afterwards, which keeps players playing a character for long periods of time, both during WoE and during the week to earn greater rewards.

 

 

35% mhp and 16% demi reductions.... sure it doesn't negate damage from anything from biochems or champs. It'll poop on Sinxs, LKs and magic pretty hard.  And snipers. Especially in an atmosphere where people get special assistance with their HP management leading to the need to one shot those with more than 9k hp.

 

And then there's glorious rings which create complete immunity to elements of your choosing. So that only harms everyone except biochems and champs.

 

And then there's the +9 kvm fists - champs won't go away. They will get worse.

Biochems won't stop being used either. Especially since kvm stuff isn't unbreakable. I think biochems will continue to use valk equip for the stun proofing too. Nobody is god, they will die if enough bombs are thrown at them fast enough.

 

I wasn't aware that people ran high amounts of mdef!

 

 

I highly recommend playing with a stat calc such as http://calcx.wushuang.ws/pvp.html to figure out the effects of equipments such as these.

 

Really all KVM will do is buff champs up more (keeping their current armors and using their bs kvm weapon), maybe make non godded sinxs even less viable than they are now. Create harder to kill LKs should they not own a GR. And make wizards re-roll as the glorious rings give everyone half a gtb.

 

Oh and KVM vit stalker is OP as hell lol, it's ok for paladins too I guess.

[Tolrin]

KVM gears had a very positive effect on the PvP meta on valk server when they were introduced.  Vit built characters made a comeback, but not to the exclusion of stun-proof gear characters, which lead to greater variety in builds, and a wider pool of choices for making an effective character.  People seem very concerned about the weapons, but making a +9 KVM weapon requires a higher time/luck investment than getting multiple MVP cards does, with the restrictions on queue times and the difficulty of upgrading them.  Before badges were put into boxes, there was never any problem with over-upgraded weapons, I believe there were only 3 made on valk server in the entire time between KVM's introduction and the introduction of badges being purchasable by KP.  You have to keep in mind that playing 5 hours a day every day and getting into every queue you can make still takes over a month to earn enough badges for a single KVM weapon, and thats if you win a lot of your games.

 

As for the supposed negative impacts on other melee classes, maybe you should check your numbers again.  Sinx is the class that benefits the most out of any class from the availability of KVM equipements.  Not only does the loss of armor from wearing the KVM set offset the higher reductions vs a sinx damage wise, but sinx also gets the biggest boost in damage potential and build diversity in terms of alternatives to MVP and mini-boss carded gears.  

 

LK is in second place in terms of KVM gear advantage, since it reduces the threat to him from the thing that mainly kills him, the champion.  With KVM gears, a champion either needs to have a more damage oriented build (as opposed to the 50 str 9x dex/vit builds so common right now) or a clean hit with a lex to one hit kill an LK, and his damage is only improved by the availability of the KVM spear, which is significantly better than the alternative 1 handed weapons.  This, in turn, improves build diversity of champions, since they have to consider taking less vit or dex in order to kill melee characters effectively, and that improves class diversity requirements by bringing more characters that aren't commonly immune to status effects onto the playing field.  The positive effects of the gears are far reaching, and don't apply solely to the classes they specifically improve.

[Xellie]

Because the sinx damage isn't offset by the higher reduction and hp pool from the kvm armor.

 

How long before people would cry KVM BADGES TAKE TOO LONG IS TOO HARD WAAAAAAAHHHH

[iamvrypwrful]

all you care about is how updates will hurt/help sinx's in these threads lol

 

kvm would give people something to do at least? just don't put kvm badges in boxes

Edited by iamvrypwrful, 21 July 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Xellie]

I'M ALLOWED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT MY OWN PLAY EXPERIENCE TOO!11!!1!!

[Myzery]

All you do is bash Tolrin and other people that voice their opinions.

I honestly have to give merit to Tolrin for even still posting. Show me somewhere that he's posted where you haven't attacked him.

 

You have megs and stuff, so you should be able to kill people.

[Xellie]

All you do is bash Tolrin and other people that voice their opinions.

I honestly have to give merit to Tolrin for even still posting. Show me somewhere that he's posted where you haven't attacked him.

 

You have megs and stuff, so you should be able to kill people.

 

Please quote where in my post I bashed him rather than just some facts about the KVM gear. If the effects of KVM gear actually relate to Tolrin himself, his personality or in real life, please let me know and I will avoid mentioning the KVM set as not to offend him in the future.

[Myzery]

Because it's part of the game.

 

I only posted because I knew you would say that.

 

Kind of like having God items in a PvP tournament where other people are expected to compete with sticks and forks, right?

 

 

[Xellie]

Because it's part of the game.

 

I only posted because I knew you would say that.

 

Kind of like having God items in a PvP tournament where other people are expected to compete with sticks and forks, right?

 

And what stopped other guilds from making them? =(
 

[Gn1ydnu]

Xellie used the least impactful god items in the tournament. Her team was the only one without Megs, the other teams used 2~3 each (that I know of). Unless your counting Sleps as real gods now. All groups had access to bryns/asprikas along with hammers.

 

 

edited: fixed numbers

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 21 July 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[Themes]

kvm would give people something to do at least? just don't put kvm badges in boxes

 

As long as they're clear at the start that they wont put any badges in boxes and that they'll be cracking down on anyone trying to bot their way to victory. Im very much against making badges any easier to get, but I'm okay with them rewarding a small amount as a reward for the PvP stuff they're trying to get started.

 

The gear is strong enough to be actually worth playing for and getting, it's not like they get implemented and two weeks later you have entire guilds full of people with a set of gear and +9 weapons. It's going to take months for people to get it all together and only the luckiest or most dedicated/hardcore people are going to have +9 weapons.

 

Edit: As for the PvP tourney, if things were restricted I'd probably have found a couple of friends and shown up (and got stomped because all we do is precast right guys??????????) but its hard to convince people or be remotely interested about it otherwise. Thats probably what Myzery meant rather than the teams that actually showed up. Maybe next time.

Edited by Themes, 21 July 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[Hrishi]

I am mostly concerned with the bugs that used to exist with farming KvM badges, if I remember correctly there were ways to generate ungodly amounts of them (anybody else remember or am I going crazy?). If that could be fixed it'd be nice.

Edited by Hrishi, 21 July 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[Xellie]

I am mostly concerned with the bugs that used to exist with farming KvM badges, if I remember correctly there were ways to generate ungodly amounts of them (anybody else remember or am I going crazy?). If that could be fixed it'd be nice.

 

I agree with that but I don't believe this server has the mentality to keep it that way if fixed. People will just complain for it to be done faster... I'm pretty sure and that scares me too.

[aulbath]

well, in my experience in other mmorpgs is that ,If you give them  content,a challenging content, that requires time and dedication, the players will keep playing, doesnt matter if they cry,They will keep playing.When something takes time to achiev, you feel proud and unique when you get it.When the Directors/Programmers decide to make it easy, the players  quit playing soon,because they dont have anything else to achieve, the less challenging the content is, the faster they will quit.

 

Theres like 2-3 guilds who own most of the gods items on the server, small-medium guilds cant do nothing vs them,wont the KVM help those players?

Edited by aulbath, 21 July 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[Hrishi]

Since I had the time to read through the thread more I will make a few comments on KvM gear. I think it's highly unlikely that gear will ever flood the server if exploits to generate a million badges do not happen. It gives something for people to work towards, which is good. You could argue that it invalidates all existing gear somewhat, but I suspect that not all classes and builds are going to be using them.

 

For some numbers, weapons take 2000 points to get a +0, which is 400 wins. Let's assume it takes 20(?) tries to make a +9 which means you have to be quite lucky. You still need something like 4000 wins to make a +9 weapon. Gives something for the people to work towards when making a god item or acquiring an mvp card is basically impossible.

 

I disagree that KvM gear helps only biochems and champs due to elemental reductions. For one, you can still endow with holy or cursed water so that glorious rings become irrelevant. Additionally, you have to keep in mind that defense from the entire set is virtually 0, which is irrelevant to both Biochems and champs. You could argue that the extra reductions you receive more than make up for having no defense, but then it's more so reducing damage equally across the board. Does it reduce damage too much across the board? It's possible. Of course, this makes running a BG/KvM weapon worse since there is very little to no defense to bypass.

 

Glorious rings can and will hurt wizards somewhat, but it's not like wizard damage is anything fantastic already unless you run mind break and a bunch of ridiculous gears. You can already invalidate magic damage if you want with current gear and I don't believe glorious rings will change that too much. You do need to sacrifice two dex accessories or whatever else to run it. I think that's a fine sacrifice to gain 20% extra elemental reduction. 

 

The disadvantage of putting KvM in is that I don't believe the exploits are fixable and will therefore be abused somehow. The advantage is that people are going to need to log on outside of woe to farm KvM and it would likely take quite a while to "finish". Classes that use KvM weapons will never finish basically.

 

The main point though, without KvM what else is even left? There's new world, and that gives us shadow garbs, but that's it. We already got morroc which did basically nothing new. We're at the point where there isn't any new gear coming. KvM is one of the few things left.

[Xellie]

Can't you get the rings and still wear a deadly? Cursed water is silly. Silly Hrishi.

 

Defence is mostly irrelevant anyway. LKs are using the twin edges which have a defence bypass. Sinxes use a 20% def bypass almost exclusively and most WoE def gear is low def anyway. it's all about he demi reductions. Trying to think if there are relevant other classes... snipers crit their FAS.

There's the effects of def in WoE.

Classes minus champ and biochem are already mostly invalidated by the welfare Asprikas. Reducing damage across the board will do what? Assist people using autopot? Everything will become MORE dependent on biochems and champs.

 

LKs are iffy at best right now. Good LKs aren't affected by defence and are currently one shottable by diablo gear fist. Take away more of their damage and they become even less relevant. No the glorious spear is not better than a twin edge. Lets address that before it comes up.

 

The only worthwhile use of a SinX now is GT very really stupid groups and ground control for GR'd LKs. Give the LKs the KVM set and the only thing that will be killing them is champs.

 

I don't think giving up accessories (or at least one since hotkeys exist) is a big deal for that ele reduction. Characters like Gypsys would just be swapping out the 4leaf clover accessories for it? no biggie. LKs could keep one on a hotkey. etc.

 

People won't farm KVM manually, they'll bot it, just like BG now. There will be drama because of bots locking out players. That's a whole new can of worms. I'm not against KVM as a whole, but I do think the effects of the set being put in aren't as clear cut as "it'll only hurt champs and bios". I think it will narrow the meta, not widen it. We need new gears to work on -  but I don't think this is the answer.

 

On a final note making god items aren't impossible, they've been getting pooped out fairly regularly as of late. And the latest plethora aren't even mine!

 

[iamvrypwrful]

Xellie used the least impactful god items in the tournament. Her team was the only one without Megs, the other teams used 2~3 each (that I know of). Unless your counting Sleps as real gods now. All groups had access to bryns/asprikas along with hammers.

 

 

edited: fixed numbers

 

tao and gtb > megs

 

didn't win because of items though

Edited by iamvrypwrful, 22 July 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[Hrishi]

You mistook what I said about god items. Certainly guilds are able to make them, but an individual cannot do this. A few can, most cannot. Individual goals regarding items is a very nice thing to have. Also honestly cursed water was just an example, plus if you're wearing a deadly you are breaking your KvM set anyway and the point is moot.

[Xellie]

You mistook what I said about god items. Certainly guilds are able to make them, but an individual cannot do this. A few can, most cannot. Individual goals regarding items is a very nice thing to have. Also honestly cursed water was just an example, plus if you're wearing a deadly you are breaking your KvM set anyway and the point is moot.

 

I didn't think you needed the set to get the resistances from the rings. Maybe I misunderstand KVM.
 

Edited by Xellie, 22 July 2014 - 07:00 AM.

[Hrishi]

No you don't, but you lose any advantages you get from the set if you're switching to a deadly. Unless you are suggesting that glorious rings on their own makes every class except biochems and champs irrelevant?

[Xellie]

That would be akin to saying Asprikas have no affect.

 

The rings alone reduce the damage of the classes I prefer to play by 20%, up to 50% with an asprika and 70% for valk shield affected elements.  (80% potentially)

 

I'd say those were significant numbers on their own.

 

Even for a wizard that is 40% for valk shield elements or 50% with resist pots. That doesn't include Asprikas but could include the set.

 

or vs the set I could run neutral element vs 16%+30%+10%(+30%)

 

Not significant at all! Either way my damage would be reduced by at least 16% vs a 35% hp increase, or reduced by up to 70% (from 50%) vs standard gear!

Edited by Xellie, 22 July 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Viri]

need sum cranial valk armors