392 replies to this topic

[jerremy]

That may be how it intended to work, but we tested on a target with 20 stacks of wounded and no stacks of healing touch, and the target still got healed for about 30% of the normal amount, while according to your theory you shouldn't be healed at all.

 

 Not sure if you can see it, but notice the 20 stacks of wounded and no healing touch.

 

 

 

Edited by jerremy, 16 February 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Genesis]

Good catch, Wounded was updated to apply a maximum of -80% instead of -100% but the descriptions haven't been updated to reflect the mechanical change. Should be corrected for next patch.

[jerremy]

Good catch, Wounded was updated to apply a maximum of -80% instead of -100% but the descriptions haven't been updated to reflect the mechanical change. Should be corrected for next patch.

Alright, thanks for clarifying.

I figure Leonis didn't know this as he was busy with the lucky spin incident lately?

Edited by jerremy, 16 February 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[Genesis]

Could be incomplete changes that weren't meant to be in this patch, Leonis would know now that the problem is identified. 

[jerremy]

Ok, good to know.

Glad to have been of help.

[Feuer]

noticing skill tree issues with the new passives. 

 

They're accessible only from certain aspects of the skill tree. For example. Katar raiders who want to focus on lower attack speed with higher crits, don't gain access to adrenaline rush. 

 

Perhaps, in certain cenarios, 

skill likes adrenaline rush, would require either A: Katar Swiftness [raider tree] or B: Critical Strikes [raider tree]

This makes it cost the same investment cost as each tree, but gives both builds access to the passive. ? 

 

In other scenarios it may just be more reasonable to add an additional passive available from the other build, for example the critical build would gain a skill that increases critical severity stacks, increasing critical damage per stack. 

 

I noted this along a lot of different classes.

 

============================================

 

Point of Interest Question

 

Mental Focus. It used to add "Additional Damage/Enhance Damage". To my knowledge this was additional damage with all sources, melee/skills. Now the tooltip reads "Spell Power increase 20%", does this spell no longer affect melee, did it ever? Just curious, as this skill was very important to my BC, however~ My BC doesn't spam very many, if any at all spells to do damage. She uses them for utility, like stuns or a burn. 

Edited by Feuer, 17 February 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[Leonis]

Ah, yes jerremy I hadn't finished that update so wasn't aware the changes were being used even though the description says otherwise. I will have the description updated to be corrected. The Wounded stacks were set to 4% per stack, so the maximum was 80%, not to allow for a complete shut out, given how fast the stacks could accumulate. The idea was to make them a disadvantage, not a disabling counter.

 

And yes, I was kind of scatter-brained trying to get other things handled, I apologize for the mistake but appreciate your feedback and well done on spotting the outpoint!

 

---

Feuer,

 

Adrenaline Rush is a powerful skill, which require the other skill passives to unlock it because of its effect. It is intended.

 

Perhaps you should look at the change that occurred to Critical Accordance. It is now a passive that provides a chance of adding stacks of increasing your critical damage, while Vicious Accordance lowers your target's critical rate, which allows for your crit rate to be more true to display.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the point you're getting at, because I am honestly struggling slightly understanding the way you've expressed what you're saying, I'd like to be sure I understand where you're going with it so it can be discussed more regarding what's been done, our intended design and what you're saying regarding it.

 

Mental Focus - Spell Damage

Correct. It was, and should have been, Spell Damage, from the beginning. It was a minor oversight when the skills were updated. It wasn't intended to allow for the idea of Muses' to be able to hit harder with their staffs, through melee damage, but apply extra focus to their skill use.

[Feuer]

Yes but I use the spell Mental Focus on my Battle Cleric, because the bonus was more for my battle cleric then valkyrie charm, due to my battle clerics low cha. 

 

As for the new stacking / procs

 

I'll use the dual raider tree as an example

 

The new skill shattering blows, reduces armor. Requires you to get the def passive + pierce def passive. So that benefits the def + def pierce tree. But what about the AP + Skill power users? My dual raider doesn't get the def or the def pierce, due to it being a CHA debuff nuke, i decided for the PVP aoe tome that reduces enemy def. So, is the relative power of my build going to be less, compared to the def + def pierce getting an additional def- on hit skill? 

 

My concern simply was that one side of the tree doesn't get, uh, "over weighted" due to it have an additional benefit vs the other side. 

 

Also, I noticed that the Adrenaline Rush, buffs your own player. While things like Shattering blows etc, reduce your target [the status is added to the target]. This means soon as your target something else, you lose that benefit, but if you have something that is buffed on you -ei adrenaline rush- you keep the benefit, and it is easily kept at a maximum stack. -it's a bad example, because the dual raiders can be applied with aoe's increasing the usefulness. but the other single target ones that reduce an enemy, instead of buffing you still apply-.

 

Ionno, I'm just still trying to go over everything I see, I'm sure its not like hellishly game breaking, but i dont want to see some of these changed affect people's ability to have fun with their favorite class, especially after all the work going into it to keep them equally usefull. 

[Leonis]

These are differences of game play and design. From my perspective, what I understand what you're asking is to have everything the class has to offer without having to choose. It's an intention to continue expanding on the classes until they're all on equal footing to be able to have to make decisions on how they wish to be built and played. This is one of those aspects where how you want to play will play a larger part behind how you want to build them.

 

There's a pro and con to the skills in how they are designed.

 

Adrenaline Rush, it applies to your character allowing you to keep the remaining benefit for yourself from target to target, however in order to keep the effect active, you also need to constantly remain in combat to refresh it.

 

Shattering Blows, it applying to your target, means anyone else attacking the target also shares the benefits of its effect and once the full effect is setup, where it will also apply the chances on skill uses, you will be able to have the effect apply to larger groups, because of the extra AoE ability potential of the class as well.

 

The Katar Raider is more of a solo design class, focusing on self and single target elimination, while the Dual Raider has more focus on party play and assistance through reducing the abilities of their opponents, not just for themselves, but for their group to gain benefits from as a whole.

 

I appreciate the considerations you have and bringing them up for review. Don't stop, keep it up, and perhaps through it all we'll all learn or realize some things may need further alterations.

[jerremy]

The new skill shattering blows, reduces armor. Requires you to get the def passive + pierce def passive. So that benefits the def + def pierce tree. But what about the AP + Skill power users? My dual raider doesn't get the def or the def pierce, due to it being a CHA debuff nuke, i decided for the PVP aoe tome that reduces enemy def. So, is the relative power of my build going to be less, compared to the def + def pierce getting an additional def- on hit skill? 

Might be difficult to get all of them due to lack of skill points, but personally I get def pierce, the shattering blows and the PVP aoe tome. Considering the three of them work at three different levels, they stack together to massively negate the enemy's defense. So yes, your relative power will probably be less.

[Leonis]

Oh, also the Mental Focus change, doesn't need to keep. The consideration of Cleric use for wand combat was not factored and it would be good to keep the skill equally useful.

[Feuer]

I cleared this up in a PM a bit ago xD I just meant the comparisons to the different routes you take

 

There in the live server are two routes for dual raider -essentially-

AP + Skill Power / acc

or

AP + Def / Def Pierce

 

My concern was that the newer variation being

AP + Skill Power / acc

or 

AP + Def / Def Pierce / Shattering blows

 

would make the AP + Skill Power / acc raider build useless when in comparison to the other option with shattering blows. That's all i meant,  

[jerremy]

Or you can just get both trees. Getting one does not single out the other, and personally I think they're both equally useful (except accuracy maybe, which isn't very important in many situations).

[Feuer]

Picking both strains you to a very inneffective character. Your access to survival, and things like stuns are very very limited if you do that. And dual raiders thrive off skill attacks. But still, I think i brought it out tinto the light enough that people will watch it for now.,

[jerremy]

Personally I don't think so. I can get the entire single target path, all dual sword passives except for accuracy, get the accu and mspd down, evasive guard, mystic knife, the aoe tree (with the last aoe being lv3), dex passive+buff, and all the dodge passives. But maybe that's just me, I've found it rather easy to build a dual raider. Wasn't pressed for skill points at all.

Edited by jerremy, 18 February 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Leonis]

This kind of argument over build is something I personally enjoy seeing. Because it ultimately comes down to preference. When there is a "right way" you will find the majority of builds conform to it. But when you have arguments over which skills could or should be learned, it is opinion being expressed, with personal preference to game play. The more I see this, the more I conclude there's less that needs to be potentially adjusted here.

[perres]

I tested out the traps.
First of all id like to say great Idea. It really gives scouts a special meaning in war pvp and pvm fights.
The steel trap is perfect also good balanced.

But as far as i tested i dont think its worth to skill it. The Traps arent worth the skillpoints besides the aoe Trap on bow.(for it youll need the other too=10 SP) In my opinion The damage of the traps is too low ( I needed 20traps to kill a grunter with them) (couldnt test them on pvp).
Moreover is the status change in muting players also an effect towards your own players in range,.

In game arena you could set for example some traps at the gates, but the 5 secs mute will be over when the opponent players attack, or players will try to release hidden traps before their strike, cause it doesnt mean much risk for them as long as fight hasnt begun.
If i set them close to the Crystal, i will mute my own players too, which will result in alot of anger towards me .

So my proposal are(only one of the list, it isnt meant to combine all):

• higher damage, + range
• Status change only for opponents, (In this case to avoid trapp spamers near xtal, make it only possible to set them when no enemys are around in a circle f.e 15-30meters.)
• better status effects
  
  Thats my impression of it so far, hope it can get usefull,
  But again: Really nice and good idea
  
  Sincerely

Edited by perres, 19 February 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[DrWrong]

oh yea Tomes are awesome

i think people dont want to reset all the unique skill since the only unique skill theyntrying to remove is the mana brake, perhaps there should bena unique remove skill where people can choose which unique skill to remove instead of removing the whole thing. Well i dont have a problem since my cleric has all the tomes from the item mall, but i bet some people are using the tome from the dungeon ... Lets hope more people will spend time and testing thisnskill update so we can get more input ...

 

[jerremy]

 

Mystic Weakening

• Reduces magic defenses by 5%, for 30 seconds. (Max 5 Stacks: 25% Magic Defense Reduction)

Blaze

• Increases Spell Power by 5%, for 30 seconds. (Max 5 Stacks: 25% Spell Power)

Windwalker

• Increase MSPD & Dodge by 10%, for 30 seconds. (Max 3 Stacks: 30% MSPD & Dodge)

 

I think these would be perfect if added to Battle Clerics appropriate skills.

 

Mystic weakening added to Mana Wave

Blaze Added to Hellfire

and Wind Walker added to Voltage Storm.

 

After some field testing, I noticed that Battle clerics Don't recieve any of the new mechanics, as majority of them don't carry healing spells. They're mostly all damage, yet they recieve no on hit bonuses. And are relateively lack luster in the damage department unless fighting things with very low mdef + melee fighting. 

 

After fighting a Dual Raider, the def passive are wholly negated, making them squishy again~ So I imagine fighting a Sword champ would be even worse. As they have def down, def pierce, and 50-100% additional damage with an 8 second mute. 

Axe champs would be harsh as well, battle clerics have no passive for critical, making any crit you have negated by axes, with them retaining a very high Crit rate on you. This coupled with increase crit damage, and the berserk also hurts. Spear champs will probly be an even match.

 

Katar raiders same story as Axes, minus berserk, but factoring in healing effect = low if you do try, and they stack on the aspd fast.

Battle arti's also have def piercing, coupled with many stuns and that beast of a summon. Would be very very hard to win that with the stuns they have access to.

 

Bourges I would sense might be a fair fight. But the mdef buff would be hard to combat.

 

XBow, def pierce [again] coupled with their uber tank [even against magic damage] because raider gears are evenly def + magic def armors. The stuns will really interupt you a lot, and xbow doesn't need to cast many skills, their melee shots are already painful with the def pierce.

 

I could go on, essentially, They don't have an upperhand on any class with exceptions to knights. Melee knights actually~ Xbows nuke clerics easily lol.

 

If the BC's got an increase to magic pierce, from procs, i think it would add that ace up the sleeve effect, but I'd ask this to be tested some. 

Actually, I beg to differ. Maybe with the changes to raider they do in fact have a disadvantage against them, but BC's have very high base accuracy and can penalize on that to hurt raiders hard. You imagine, but BC's wreck almost any soldier class penalizing on their low mdef combined with additional magic piercing. Not sure about artis, but bourgs are a pretty easy target given their squishiness. Scouts also aren't much of a trouble when played right.

[Soda]

Actually, I beg to differ. Maybe with the changes to raider they do in fact have a disadvantage against them, but BC's have very high base accuracy and can penalize on that to hurt raiders hard. You imagine, but BC's wreck almost any soldier class penalizing on their low mdef combined with additional magic piercing. Not sure about artis, but bourgs are a pretty easy target given their squishiness. Scouts also aren't much of a trouble when played right.

 

BCs actually have low accuracy (15% only in the supportive skill tree), much lower compared to knights that have 20% accuracy passive (on handed), 30% on xbow. And i don't think BC needs any improvement really. They're quite good as it is. I just thought that the new debuffs was going to affect BC just like what Feuer said. I haven't tested pegasus but im assuming that you need mage passives to access the debuffs.

[Leonis]

I tested out the traps.
First of all id like to say great Idea. It really gives scouts a special meaning in war pvp and pvm fights.
The steel trap is perfect also good balanced.

But as far as i tested i dont think its worth to skill it. The Traps arent worth the skillpoints besides the aoe Trap on bow.(for it youll need the other too=10 SP) In my opinion The damage of the traps is too low ( I needed 20traps to kill a grunter with them) (couldnt test them on pvp).
Moreover is the status change in muting players also an effect towards your own players in range,.

In game arena you could set for example some traps at the gates, but the 5 secs mute will be over when the opponent players attack, or players will try to release hidden traps before their strike, cause it doesnt mean much risk for them as long as fight hasnt begun.
If i set them close to the Crystal, i will mute my own players too, which will result in alot of anger towards me .

So my proposal are(only one of the list, it isnt meant to combine all):

• higher damage, + range
• Status change only for opponents, (In this case to avoid trapp spamers near xtal, make it only possible to set them when no enemys are around in a circle f.e 15-30meters.)
• better status effects
  
  Thats my impression of it so far, hope it can get usefull,
  But again: Really nice and good idea
  
  Sincerely

I appreciate the feedback. I'd like to offer some information regarding the traps design.

 

The traps themselves aren't intended to be damage dealing abilities. They are more for their effect. Being able to trap someone in place, prevent skill usage, put you at an advantage as a ranged combat type. It's intended that you should be watching over your traps, for when they trigger, you take advantage over their effect, or simply accept that their effect makes things more difficult and complicated for the affected enemy.

Increasing the range will be considered, but again, consider that these are utility tools to be placed strategically, not haphazardly dropped places knowing they'll do something eventually.

We currently do not have the ability to recognize proximity to players or NPCs to prevent setting a trap, as it is using the summoning system. Aside from that, placing a trap while near a player lets them know you set a trap, as they can see where you place it. You lose the advantage of it being hidden and unknown to have the player walk in to it.

I'd like to hear your idea of "better status effects" If you'd like to suggest ideas, please do. We're at the stage where nothing is set yet, so you have the opportunity to help shape the class. If ideas suggested fit within the design intentions we'll be happy to consider or adjust based on the ideas and feedback given.
 

[nions]

sorry not in ths topic,

But can i ask why in the draconis server always Server Disconect, always in JUNON place, but in the other world is not. Its so hard to vend. sir if its like that, just concerned.

 

Regards,

[Leonis]

sorry not in ths topic,

But can i ask why in the draconis server always Server Disconect, always in JUNON place, but in the other world is not. Its so hard to vend. sir if its like that, just concerned.

 

Regards,

Yup, you're right not on topic. You may want to either check other forum threads that already have this as a topic discussion or send a PM.

[kumpiakot]

leonis just noticed the siphon trap it does mute both players most of the time...i tried on pvp we both got muted or maybe this is how it works near range?

[ShazamO]

Feel free to test skills out on my character: [CM]ShazamO.

 

I'm chilling in Training Grounds.