397 replies to this topic

[Lukiner]

EDIT - ON A SECOND NOTE, I'VE COME UP WITH A POSSIBLE REVAMP IDEA TO MAKE MONK A BIT MORE WORTHY. This is pretty much what I wished Monks could be given the current state it is in and how it can be improved. So while it is my opinion and design fix, it's still a good basis on what changes the class could get without overpowering them.

 

PS - Names are weird, blah blah lol.

 

 

ohh I like that DPS stance

 

here is my version that had in mind for a while (but I was to lazy to do it... until I got sick today and also I saw your version that motivated and gave me inspiration to do this finally) + I borrowed your suggestions/idea partially

 

 

• Awakening/Power Implantation/Spiritual Bestowment/...

Max level: 5

Passive:

Increases own defense by 10% / 20% / 30% / 40% / 50%

Active:

Cast: Instant / Delay: 3 s / Cost: 10 sp

Increase your and party/raid members <insert one or two stats> for 30 minutes.

for example: Vigor and Hit? or reduced taken damage by x%?

or something else that would be usefull both for monk and party but not just pure tank related (so dps monk would also benefit from this buff)...

 

• Raging Palm Strike/Raging Blow/...

Max level: 5

Active:

Cast: Instant / Delay: 0 s / Cost: 1 sp / Range: 2 m 

Obtain 1 Spirit Sphere.

Attack the enemy continuously to inflict damage equal 17% / 19% / 21% / 23% / 25% of Attack Power

 

no change in this skill

 

• Spiritual Cadence/Meditation/Power Absorb/...

Max level: 5 (changed from 1)

Passive     

Increases Attack Power by 2 for each point in INT and allows the gaining of Spirit Spheres when using Attack Skills.

Active:

Cast: Instant / Delay: ??? s / Cost: 10 sp

Absorb 3 Spirit Sphere to heal yourself by x% of max (or current dunno what sounds better) health

 

Skill level would lower cooldown or increase healing amount... values depends on balancing and stuff

 

• Heavy Tackle/Raging Thrust/Occult Impaction/...

Max level: 5

Active    

Cast: Instant / Delay: 0.00 s / Cost: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 sp / Range: 2 m

Requires and consumes 3 Spirit Spheres.

Attack the target and 2 nearby enemies by dealing damage equal 37% / 39% / 41% / 43% / 45% of Attack Power and also refresh effect of Throw Spirit Sphere on main target

 

added the TSS refreshing effect that people mentioned few times

 

• Glacier Fist/Vital Strike/Crushing Blow/...

Max level: 3 (changed from 5)

Active

Cast: Instant  / Delay: 10 s (increased from based 6 second but it may be even bigger value) / Cost: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 sp / Range: 2 m 

Obtain 2 Spirit Spheres. 

Attack the enemy continuously to inflict damage equal 14% / 18% / 21% of Attack Power and also slow enemy by 20% for 2 second (or more/less ...) OR add DoT on target that deal damage equal x% of of Attack Power during x seconds

 

soft CC or DoT would be helpful imho... CC would help us Monk in PvP vs ranged characters while DoT would help tank monks generate more agro or deal more damage for dps monks

 

• Lightning Crush/Thunderstrike/Sky Blow/...

Max level: 3

Active     

Cast: Instant / Delay: 3 s / Cost: 3 / 4 / 5 sp / Range: .. at least 30% more of the area that it covers now IMHO 

Create a shockwave on the ground to inflict damage equal to the 23% / 27% / 32% of Attack Power to 4 (OR 5) surrounding enemies and obtain additional threat of 50% of the damage.    

 

more dmg (idea of Meconopsis) + more targets + bigger zone = better trash/adds control but still not that good as other tanks specially Knight 

 

• Lightning Walk/Snap/Blink/Lightning Snap/Shunpo/...

Max level: 3 (changed from 5)

Active / Teleport     

Cast: Instant / Delay: 60 s / 40 s / 20 s / Cost: 2 / 4  / 6 sp /Range: 20 m 

Obtain 1 Spirit Sphere.

Move instantly in front of the target and deal damage equal to the 17% / 21% / 25% of Attack Power and stun target for 2 seconds.

 

currently blinking to moving target in PvP gives us nothing (expect 1 spirit sphere and tiny bit of dmg if skill ofc works and don't bug) because after half second target is out of our melee range unless we use wind elixir or have CC pet....

PvE situation .... well it's kinda nice when Warriors and Sins can knockdown mobs while die blink/jump to them to buy 1~2 second of free&safe dps so why not give also Monks CC in their teleport/jump?

 

• Zen/Summon Spirit Sphere/Soul Collect/...

Max level: 5

Active / Buff

Cast: Instant / Delay: 240 ~ 120 s / Cost: 0 sp

Obtain 3 Spirit Spheres instantly and reset all cooldowns.

240 s / 210 s / 180 s / 150 s / 120 s skill cooldown

 

no change in this skill

 

• Howling Lion/Taunt/Shout/Intimidation/....

Max level: 5

Active / Taunt     

Cast: Instant / Delay: 20 ~ 8 s / Cost: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 sp / Range: 20 m 

Taunt the enemy to make them attack you.

20 s / 17 s / 14 s / 11 s / 8 s skill cooldown

 

no change in this skill

 

• Throw Spirit Sphere/Spirit Assault/...

Max level: 5

Active:

Cast: Instant / Delay: 10 s / Cost: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 sp / Range: 20 m

Obtain 1 Spirit Sphere.

Fire an Energy Bullet to an enemy at range to inflict damage equal to the 17% / 19% / 21% / 24% / 26% of Attack Power and increase the damage taken from the Monk by 15% for 10 seconds.

 

no change in this skill or we can use the idea suggested by Meconopsis if original version may have too OP synergy with dps build:

Max level: 3  (changed from 5)

Active:

Cast: Instant / Delay: 10 s / Cost: 2 / 4 / 6 sp / Range: 20 m

Obtain 1 Spirit Sphere.

Fire an Energy Bullet to an enemy at range to inflict damage (17% / 21% / 26% Attack Power damage dealt) and increase the damage taken from the Monk by 10% / 13% / 15% for 10 seconds.

 

• Fury Explosion/Spiritual Rage/Unity/...

Max level: 5

Active / Buff    

Cast: Instant / Delay: 60 s / Cost: 0 sp

Requires and consumes 3 Spirit Spheres. 

Increases own Attack Power by 6% / 12% / 18% / 24% / 30% for 30 seconds and enables the use of Guillotine Fist (Asura Strike).    

 

no change in this skill

 

• Protection Ki/Spiritual Boost/Spiritual Sphere Protection/...

Max level: 5

Active / Buff   

Cast: Instant / Delay: 60 s (or 90 s) (changed from 120 s) / Cost: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 sp

Requires and consumes 1 Spirit Sphere. 

Decreases damage taken by 10% / 20% / 30% / 40% / 50% and increase own Dodge Rate by 3% / 6% / 9% / 12% /15% for 10 seconds

 

merged Protection Ki with Flee into one skill and lowered bonus dodge rate... dodge rate can be lowered more or even deleted from skill if this skill sound to OP

 

• Spirit Form/Living Thunder/Avenger/Tiger Stance/...

idea by Meconopsis:

 

Max level: 5

Toggle / Buff

Cast: 4 s / Delay: 3 s / Cost: 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 sp

Focus all Spirit to increase Attack Power by 7% / 9% / 11% / 13% / 15%, Dodge rate by 2% / 3% / 4% / 5% / 6% and double the bonus of Spiritual Cadence's Intelligence to Attack Power conversion. This skill cannon be used with Steel Body at the same time.

 

Ofc dodge rate could be replaced with Hit rate or other dps related stat...

 

 

• Steel Body/Mental Strength/Guardian/Dragon Stance/...

Max level: 5

Toggle / Buff

Cast: 4 s / Delay: 3 s / Cost: 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 sp

Focus all Spirit to increase HP by 7% / 14% / 21% / 28% / 35%, Defense by 40% / 80% / 120% / 160% / 200% and Threat generation by 60% / 120% / 180% / 240% / 300%, but decrease Attack Power by 5%. This skill cannon be used with Spirit Form at the same time.

 

I changed the Attack Power reducion to 5% since mysticalre said that: "an AoD geared monk gets out-threated by a soul linked AoD geared Ranger" but ofc it may still 10% if someone think that too OP changed.

 

• Guillotine Fist/Asura Strike/God Wrath/Death Touch/...

Max level: 5

Active

Cast: Instant / Delay: 60 s / Cost: 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 sp / Range: 5 m  (changed from 2m)

Requires Fury state. 

Hit the target with a powerful blow to inflict damage equal to the 80% / 95% / 110% / 125% / 140% of Attack Power and stun the target for 4 seconds. Ignores defense of target and have 10% increased chance to hit

 

new damage values by Meconopsis

defence penetraion by Meconopsis & Gravity (Asura in RO1 bypasses the target's DEF)

increased hit chance by me ... my eyes bleed when I see that my Asura MISS.....

also I suggest a bit biger range for this ultimate skill (if that badass monk from cut-scene could cast his Asura from far far away and make it AoE so we could at least cast if from 5 meters) it's not that long compared to TSS or Lightning Walk but may be helpful in PvP

 

also bonus thingy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I HOPE that it's not OP but hey, with proper discussion, sharing opinions and ideas we can "make" perfect and balanced skill rework/buff for Monk that MAYBE GMs will see and share it for Dev... (good joke... good joke)

 

 

Edited by Lukiner, 02 October 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Gamdol]

I don't know how much thought does or should go into 1v1 situations, but a 2 second stun Lightning Walk with the rest of the kit is extremely powerful, and basically makes Monk uncounterable vs any of the squishier classes. In Colo this isn't really an issue because the +max health puts people above the 2x GFist damage range. TSS -> TSS -> LW -> FE -> GFist -> Reset -> GFist. That's assuming you can't hit them any other way, which isn't always the case. I think GFist as it is is enough of a stun if the animation was shorter so you could act before the target was unstunned. I would much prefer a slow and a longer CD root/slow break, which would serve to solve a lot of issues without making the Monk unstoppable.

 

Other suggestions to improve damage and threat generation I really like, and I'd love to get a decent amount of AGI on gear to get up to 20-25% crit without heavy AGI cards.

[NuwaChan]

This is looking great, you misspelled dragon lukiner. (bump)

Edited by NuwaChan, 02 October 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Vanillarox]

I think "Dragon Stance" should give more ATK power. My logic behind this is, if a Monk were to go DPS, they'd be the only DPS class that uses cloth armor. That makes us extremely squishy in comparison.

[Lukiner]

I think "Dragon Stance" should give more ATK power. My logic behind this is, if a Monk were to go DPS, they'd be the only DPS class that uses cloth armor. That makes us extremely squishy in comparison.

 

yup that's the biggest problem of making Monks as DPS since they wear cloth armor and atm Steel Body is a must have to endure being slapped hard by mobs/players....

 

hmm

 

maybe if the DPS stance: Tiger Stance (or Spirit Form as I prefer more ;p) instead of increasing dodge increase HP by 5% / 10% / 15% / 20% / 25% OR Defense by 25% / 50% / 75% / 100% / 125% it would be better

 

 

This is looking great, you misspelled dragon lukiner. (bump)

 

fixed ^^ thank you for pointing this

Edited by Lukiner, 02 October 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Vanillarox]

yup that's the biggest problem of making Monks as DPS since they wear cloth armor and atm Steel Body is a must have to endure being slapped hard by mobs/players....

 

hmm

 

maybe if the DPS stance: Tiger Stance (or Spirit Form as I prefer more ;p) instead of increasing dodge increase HP by 5% / 10% / 15% / 20% / 25% OR Defense by 25% / 50% / 75% / 100% / 125% it would be better

 

 

 

fixed ^^ thank you for pointing this

 

This might sound OP, but I was thinking..

 

Why not just keep it to once stance and give us:

 

20% ATK power, 200% Defense, 300% Threat Generation and 35% HP.

 

I mean logically.. if we're using our spirit to harden our body to the consistency of steel, wouldn't we theoretically hit harder as well?

[Gamdol]

I think it makes sense to have to sacrifice some DPS to become an uber tank, but I'd like to think there's a simpler solution.

 

Buff Monk gear to the point where it falls in line with the DPS Stance above (removing the stance), and keep Steel Body as is, cutting some of the offensive power of the Monk for more defense. Tune down some of the multipliers like health% to increase the amount of VIT on Monk gear in general, etc.

[Vanillarox]

I think it makes sense to have to sacrifice some DPS to become an uber tank, but I'd like to think there's a simpler solution.

 

Buff Monk gear to the point where it falls in line with the DPS Stance above (removing the stance), and keep Steel Body as is, cutting some of the offensive power of the Monk for more defense. Tune down some of the multipliers like health% to increase the amount of VIT on Monk gear in general, etc.

 

You are aware that no other class loses attack power for their defensive stance (save for warrior who gets two defensive stances). Warriors get 5% damage reduction, 20% HP, 300% Threat Generation, 30% Dodge, 30% Parry and 30% Defense. They can get all this, and only lose 10% ATK power.

 

What do Monks get? 35% HP, 200% Defense and 300% Threat Generation. We get just that and lose 10% ATK power. The last thing we need is a nerf to Steel Body. If anything, it's not good enough. Warriors have such an amazing advantage with their passives, it is ridiculous. Uber tank? Far from it. There is more to tanking than having the best defense value (which we don't even have. Ever seen a Knight with Earth Shield? Their defense is not much lower than ours).

[Gamdol]

I'm saying buff our stats without Steel Body so that DPS would be viable as a Monk. With higher base stats, you wouldn't be squishy as hell without SB on, and you'd ideally end up with higher than current offensive levels even with SB active. I'm not saying just 'nerf SB', I'm saying 'make Monk as good defensively as it is now, but move more of the stats away from SB and onto our gear'.

[Vanillarox]

I'm saying buff our stats without Steel Body so that DPS would be viable as a Monk. With higher base stats, you wouldn't be squishy as hell without SB on, and you'd ideally end up with higher than current offensive levels even with SB active. I'm not saying just 'nerf SB', I'm saying 'make Monk as good defensively as it is now, but move more of the stats away from SB and onto our gear'.

 

We still use cloth armor. We're not using Leather or Light Armor. We will still be the squishiest DPS class without Steel Body. No matter how much they buff our gear, we must remember that we are dealing with cloth armor. Steel Body deals with percentages. That means it ideally scales very well (with proper gear in place). If we remove points in Steel Body, we will lose a lot of end game effectiveness. If you removed 10% of our HP from Steel Body and raised our VIT on armors by 20%, we'd still be at a loss.

[Meconopsis]

Ah... When I proposed my DPS stance, I was hoping to make Flee more consistent while improving the damage output of the class. I did the numbers with the assumption that the monk's gear would be improved, so theoretically I think that around 15% would be good because I also implemented a double bonus for Spiritual Cadence. The dodge part is mainly so that monks can take an aspect where they have a defining trait as a DPS - without any form of healing we can be offered dodge rate increases to complement the melee disadvantage. Still, given that my numbers are based upon a more scaled version of gear STR and INT and Attack Power-wise, the DPS offered would be quite good, as well as the 50% defense rate increase.

Of course I just added in a DPS stance for the sake of people who want to play DPS monk. For defensive purposes, -10% is good for the defensive stance because our armor values are pretty insane when given 50% and 200% scaling. It's only because our weapon's attack power is so low for a single equip weapon (Knight Weapon can reach near double of Monk's weapon and they have a shield to boot) that people see the -10% as an issue.

Well, it is one issue but I think the main flaw of the monk is what Gamdol and many others have commented on - our gear plainly does not compete with other classes.

[NuwaChan]

We still use cloth armor. We're not using Leather or Light Armor. We will still be the squishiest DPS class without Steel Body. No matter how much they buff our gear, we must remember that we are dealing with cloth armor. Steel Body deals with percentages. That means it ideally scales very well (with proper gear in place). If we remove points in Steel Body, we will lose a lot of end game effectiveness. If you removed 10% of our HP from Steel Body and raised our VIT on armors by 20%, we'd still be at a loss.

 

That is the point, the dps stance should be a risk / reward deal. Monks still have Iron skin and protection Ki

So with Colo gear,  618 def becomes 927 with a skill that reduces dmg by 50%. Sins have 927 def, but have

a skil to increase Def.  So in pvp it would be a dps monk with 927 def who can reduce dmg by 50% vs a Sin

with 927 def who can boost his def to 1390.

 

Some gear improvements would help monks a lot.

Edited by NuwaChan, 02 October 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Vanillarox]

A wise Monk once dreamt of having 10% damage reflected with Steel Body on.

 

Anyways, back at the topic at hand. I am all for risk/reward, but if we are to be given a DPS stance, I believe the reward should be larger. Remember, Assassins have Shadow Armor, which is basically a better version of Protection Ki.

 

I think our DPS stance should be a bit stronger, if not more useful. I do like the idea of adding dodge to it (at the moment we get next to none).

[Meconopsis]

I'll be updating my remake version soon, but I want to get my thoughts on the DPS stance I thought of.

 

First, the attack bonus I think should be around 15% because we get a 30% straight attack power boost without any drawbacks. I want to emphasize this as the monk's greatest tool, besides SSS. With this knowledge, I also made the Spiritual Cadence conversion bonus twice as strong, so the INT bonuses would provide a lot more attack power. In fact, it might make monks a bit too strong, although I can't be too sure thanks to the current gear's scaling.

 

I added Dodge also because as a melee, assassins have a weapon that has similar attack power to monks but a 30% damage boost constantly. Their main defense is similar to a monk, which is Shadow Armor. Thing is, they have shorter cooldown on it, and I kept the cooldown on our Protection Ki high. Why? Because we have SSS. The dodge part was to make the RNG of Evasion/Flee less useful/useless. Of course the drawback of all this is that monk's gear, defensive wise, remains similar to the current ones we have.

 

Still, a remake is highly unlikely, so I hope monks get a buff to their offense anyway. Their threat generation is just a weak DPS tacked with 300% threat modifier.

[foxfight]

Welp, since I know very little about monks but support this injustice:

Requested by Lukiner.

 

[noobslayer48]

What happens when you turn off and recast steel body?

 

 

uhm, «Steel Body» has a casting time of like 3 seconds, be it to put it on or take it off.

So the strategy of switching it on/off like a sorc emblem is not applicable... altho it would be an interesting idea.

 

I actually tried this and it works a lot better than you would think in colo. my G-fist was able to do up to 1k-2k more damage and 3k more damage with enrage. Used lighting walk to get away after doing a double faclon punch on an unsuspecting 6k hp player and got the kill as well as enough time to re-cast steel body. only stopped doing it because it angered me to even had to do all of those steps just to get 1 kill.

[Leinzan]

I actually tried this and it works a lot better than you would think in colo. my G-fist was able to do up to 1k-2k more damage and 3k more damage with enrage. Used lighting walk to get away after doing a double faclon punch on an unsuspecting 6k hp player and got the kill as well as enough time to re-cast steel body. only stopped doing it because it angered me to even had to do all of those steps just to get 1 kill.

if it really works then I have to try it O__o!

doing complicated steps is no problem >=D!

 

Edit: btw your signature looks too pro for this game :V

Edited by Leinzan, 04 October 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[noobslayer48]

if it really works then I have to try it O__o!

doing complicated steps is no problem >=D!

 

Edit: btw your signature looks too pro for this game :V

 

thank you

 

also need to mention again, you have to refresh steel body every now and then anyway to keep your defense from ending up like paper despite what your char. stats tell you otherwise

[Meconopsis]

The lost of the -10% for the G-Fist damage by removing Steel Body is neat, but like you said, it's very tedious lol. Hopefully though it gets you through Colo as your own strategy.

[NuwaChan]

Bump

[Lukiner]

 

Visual Improvements

 

-Weapon -  Currently monks don't even use Fist as a weapon... they just have something floating on their arm. Either apply two visual fists weapons or add some sort of glove on the left hand.

 

 
I wish that monk weapons in RO2 look like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 





 
but instead monks in RO2 have THIS:

 

[Vanillarox]

bump

[Chocs]

You are aware that no other class loses attack power for their defensive stance (save for warrior who gets two defensive stances). Warriors get 5% damage reduction, 20% HP, 300% Threat Generation, 30% Dodge, 30% Parry and 30% Defense. They can get all this, and only lose 10% ATK power.

Just wanna say, us tank Warrior have to spend 10 skill points and at least one more on a relatively unnecessary skill (like Wide Provoke which I never use) for those bonuses. Monks have it pretty good with Steel Body.

 

Tank Warriors:

+5% damage reduction

+20% HP

+30% Defence/Parry/Dodge

-10% Attack

--> Two 5 point skills

 

Tank Monks:

+35% HP

+200% Defence

-10% Attack

--> One 5 point skill

 

It kind of adds up when you see it this way. Of course DPS wise, Warriors have the highest base attack power amongst the tanks, while Monks have the lowest(?).

 

I wish I can add more to the discussion but alas, I've yet to own a Monk--

 

From the short time I've played a friend's, I'd say buffing Fury with a high Critical % modifier and tweaking G-Fist to enable boss Stun + 100% hit rate is the kind of quick fix I'd do if I were a RO2 dev

[Meconopsis]

Just to note, warriors, regardless of needing more points to get their defensive skills generally have overall better skills offensively and their gear is exceptionally better...

And yes, monks have the lowest DPS out of all the tanks. Just a simple look at their skills And gear can show that.

At this rate I've given up on hoping the devs fix this class. Because even if they do, when will they fix pets that taken over our roles? Or the unnatural crazy health requirements for CoA that only full colo gear can save you?

When can this game actually be fun in progression rather than requiring things that should not be a certain way? These things have made me a bystander for now.

[Chocs]

All I'm saying is Steel Body is nothing to sneeze at. I just think that skill serves its purpose fine as is. In comparison Defender's bonuses don't really add up to much until you get the CoA set-- do mind that Warriors have the second lowest Defence and lowest HP (along with Knights) of the tanks.

 

Tanking wise Monks have their place on top of my MT list, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

 

Anyway, instead of a DoT how about making the TSS debuff stack? Something like:

 

Throw Spirit Sphere:

• 17% / 19% / 21% / 24% / 26% Attack Power
• Debuff applied to monster, 10% damage increase for Monk skills.
• Debuff stacks up to 5 stacks for every successful Heavy Tackle up to 50% damage increase for Monk skills.
• Debuff will increase to 5 stacks instantly after a successful Guillotine Fist (debuff has to be applied first).
• Debuff will last for 7s and can be refreshed with TSS or Heavy Tackle (less duration to make up for the attack increase).

If 50% damage increase ends up to be too much gain for too little cost, we can limit the debuff stacks according to the TSS level, so Monks can have more variation in their build; 5/5 TSS = DPS Monk.

 

Since the debuff effect is placed after the 10% damage modifier of Steel Body, leaving Steel Body off will make a more notable difference in damage compared with it on. If Fury is tweaked with Critical % modifier DPS Monks can be the burst damage monsters they used to be.