394 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

I'm not interested in discussing WoE related improvements in your presence. I could explain further, but I'd get modded for not being "helpful." 

 

Lol.... ok? It's your loss. "I don't want to discuss WoE improvements when the other side gets a say, but I'll sure complain about it!"

 

I've never said anything directly against you, except when you misunderstood me about how we defended an empty castle with 3 people for a mostly whole woe. It's up to you if you want a say or not and don't let me stop you, but the only side being hurt here is your own.

 

Likewise, I'm holding no ill will against your uncalled for attacks on me in the patchnotes thread. You don't even need to talk to me, talking to the staff is good enough to get your side across so that you don't feel sidelined or biased against.

 

p.s: I'll take the BM x3 back. If you so don't want to be involved in anything I do but are willing to participate in my events and take my personal items
 

[VModCinnamon]

Feel free not to discuss if you have absolutely no more to add and please keep the ranters quality drama out.

[Tora]

Yes attacking people is literally all I ever do. Please disregard the years of content I've posted on these forums on this account and others, and many constructive posts I've made about this particular subject if you want to keep it current.

 

Let's see what you've contributed on the other hand... Oh that remark about Xellie was literally the first thing you said in this thread, and the first post you've made in 6 months lol.

 

You sound just like Sean, trolling and then crying foul when people call you out, then tacking something tenuously relevant to whatever topic is being discussed to the end of your post in order to make it seem admissable and to justify your previous inflammatory comments.

 

Also you started it broseph.

Posting and spamming forums doesn't mean you're contributing to anything. I play other games and I don't always browse the forums. Posting a macro doesn't call anyone out.

 

 

 

Xellie, TE WoE is the only thing I do now (If you mean on renewal, I quit Classic over a year ago but I prefer Classic and TE over Renewal WoE). I've recently joined animosity and after my discussions with some players, it seems there is either a lack of proper builds or equipment to deal with certain players, some of this seems easy to address. But I also get that there are a lack of players that can man the right classes, "We don't have enough players on Lord Knights or Champions". It's tough to balance the right class composition with a limited amount of players, only 25~35 or so show up to face off against larger alliances.

 

In my case, I have most of the character types for woe but I don't necessarily have the right equipment to cover each of them. The solution for me here is to ask for assistance, to share gears, accounts etc and fortunately I have some connections with old friends. It's very difficult for a new player who hasn't had enough time to build the necessary things to play and it's hard to gain trust for borrowing items if they haven't made the right friends. This can be off-putting and I have friends that are new to the game or rejoined after many years, some of them quit quickly in frustration. Mostly to the grind but also because they can't participate in woe soon enough, which I'm sure for many of us is the most fun part of this game.

 

Many who do show for war aren't committed to the PVE aspect of the game so they don't really offer much to supply themselves or team mates so that's another issue. Kami made a large post about the supply side of war that was a big concern. Another thought, similar to what Mischelle said, the current games offer quick satisfaction and that in relatively short time a player can gain all that is needed to play well enough to be successful but also feel like the player matters or is effective. I think that is a modern gaming trend. That's probably why some people only show up for 2 hours a week to do their part as long as they have the things needed.

There are various things that could be changed here and there but I personally don't know if it will solve these problems unless there is a fundamental change on the game overall: How we use and depend on items like equipment, resources like potions, addressing size of players that can access a fortresses etc. Whether that comes in a limit of use, nerfs, restrictions on entry or whatever, either way the changes might have to be drastic, requiring some sacrifice by older players who put a lot of time, to improve the ease of accessibility in the woe scene or level the playing field. This could essentially create a new game lol but this topic only regards balancing and doing tweaks on certain items so I can't really offer much that hasn't been said.

Edited by Tora, 02 December 2015 - 11:32 PM.

[lxst]

i would like to say that neffing gods or mvp cards would be a de-motivating move. having a separate woe for no gods/mvp is a much better idea and i would personally play it.
 BUT..!     i have an idea!

 

 

 

new quest line: gods, the long way around...

requires: every main story quest, lvl 99/70,

takes you thru (at least) all the seals and then some. requires much larger amounts of non guild loot to eventually create your own woe1 god item.

by increasing the prerequisite quest list i think you could have a not so long in terms of script but intensive in farming solo god create quest. 

 

 

 

also, just for an event woe it would be fun to have access to a set of 1 day rental gods for each player. if you can make them all disappear after.

[Ecclesio]

Lol.... ok? It's your loss. "I don't want to discuss WoE improvements when the other side gets a say, but I'll sure complain about it!"

 

You don't even need to talk to me, talking to the staff is good enough to get your side across so that you don't feel sidelined or biased against.

 

 

I went ahead and removed the flame bait portions of your post for you. Cinnamod said no more drama.  

 

You asked me to post, so I posted explaining why I wasn't going to give my thoughts on the subject. That's all.

 

Besides, Tora said a lot of what I was thinking anyway. Hence why I upvoted his post. 

[Xellie]

Posting and spamming forums doesn't mean you're contributing to anything. I play other games and I don't always browse the forums. Posting a macro doesn't call anyone out.

 

 

 

Xellie, TE WoE is the only thing I do now (If you mean on renewal, I quit Classic over a year ago but I prefer Classic and TE over Renewal WoE). I've recently joined animosity and after my discussions with some players, it seems there is either a lack of proper builds or equipment to deal with certain players, some of this seems easy to address. But I also get that there are a lack of players that can man the right classes, "We don't have enough players on Lord Knights or Champions". It's tough to balance the right class composition with a limited amount of players, only 25~35 or so show up to face off against larger alliances.

 

In my case, I have most of the character types for woe but I don't necessarily have the right equipment to cover each of them. The solution for me here is to ask for assistance, to share gears, accounts etc and fortunately I have some connections with old friends. It's very difficult for a new player who hasn't had enough time to build the necessary things to play and it's hard to gain trust for borrowing items if they haven't made the right friends. This can be off-putting and I have friends that are new to the game or rejoined after many years, some of them quit quickly in frustration. Mostly to the grind but also because they can't participate in woe soon enough, which I'm sure for many of us is the most fun part of this game.

 

Many who do show for war aren't committed to the PVE aspect of the game so they don't really offer much to supply themselves or team mates so that's another issue. Kami made a large post about the supply side of war that was a big concern. Another thought, similar to what Mischelle said, the current games offer quick satisfaction and that in relatively short time a player can gain all that is needed to play well enough to be successful but also feel like the player matters or is effective. I think that is a modern gaming trend. That's probably why some people only show up for 2 hours a week to do their part as long as they have the things needed.

There are various things that could be changed here and there but I personally don't know if it will solve these problems unless there is a fundamental change on the game overall: How we use and depend on items like equipment, resources like potions, addressing size of players that can access a fortresses etc. Whether that comes in a limit of use, nerfs, restrictions on entry or whatever, either way the changes might have to be drastic, requiring some sacrifice by older players who put a lot of time, to improve the ease of accessibility in the woe scene or level the playing field. This could essentially create a new game lol but this topic only regards balancing and doing tweaks on certain items so I can't really offer much that hasn't been said.

 

I agree so much with you.

 

A lot of the time an "OP player/gear" is a compositional problem. Using the example of gtb since everyone loves that, you just switch to GD pally or fist or grimtooth w/e. I feel that hibram is different since this isn't a case of just changing the meta. This becomes mvp card vs mvp card which becomes composition vs mvp card vs mvp card. Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly, but I view all outgoing damage as much different to incoming.

 

Classic concerns me because of gear saturation. It's a huge issue. And people are going to have to play against it if they start and that is frightening. Something like say, gtb, they can get around by rolling a different setup rather than needing mega high end gear to deal with it. It's a complex issue with many sides, but as we have proven, people won't put aside differences to try and look at it mathematically.

 

I play renewal in a similar basis to you. I do TE and occasionally the other woes and I borrow gear sometimes characters. Establishment is more work than I wish to commit. Likewise, I return the deal on classic and I believe it's easier to establish people here.

 

So you may only have followed this thread up to now or w/e but I just want you to know that I am bringing people to the server weekly. I do not like to carry them the whole way (so many burns behind me) but give them the tools to establish. Mercs, some starting zeny, a hide clip and advise. That's it. No more. After that they have to sell things to me or pull their weight in a party.

 

Am I harsh like that? Maybe, but I don't like the way classic has devolved into people carrying others for WoE only play. But that experience has given me a lot of insight into the new player experience on the server...

 

So these ideas of a WoE TE on classic are great, but damage is high and the groups are established. The same people will run around with their non god/boss gear in their large groups and decimate and discourage new players. It doesn't work the way people WANT it to in terms of "teaching". It will be an alternative avenue of combat for current groups. Does this sound familiar?

 

Classic's community is heavilly split between various groups and those go from "moba style woe only pserver players" to full on mmo players and nobody can decide what type of server they want. You see posts here between people who want a full mmo server and woe to reflect that (of which I think my guild are mostly in that category) and there's the ones who want it to be separate and unrelated to our pvm experience.

Personally I don't like infinite supplies. Some of which became a necessary evil because of bots/pserver mentality causing numbers to drop if the supplies aren't available. Weight management? I can only carry 400 potions at a time, go me. I carry more gear than was ever dreamed of when the weight limits were designed (our renewal gear on classic!)

 

Sacrifices are necessary and I'm kind of wondering if an across the board reduction in damage might be the way to go... a slight alteration of WoE physics. It's a scary thing if they mess it up, but it could do a lot of good without hurting any gear balance or relationship between equips.

[ChakriGuard]

* Reading quietly and feeling jealous of Classic players. Why cant Renewal WoE-related threads be so dramatic *

[Tora]

Spoiler

I agree so much with you.

 

A lot of the time an "OP player/gear" is a compositional problem. Using the example of gtb since everyone loves that, you just switch to GD pally or fist or grimtooth w/e. I feel that hibram is different since this isn't a case of just changing the meta. This becomes mvp card vs mvp card which becomes composition vs mvp card vs mvp card. Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly, but I view all outgoing damage as much different to incoming.

 

Classic concerns me because of gear saturation. It's a huge issue. And people are going to have to play against it if they start and that is frightening. Something like say, gtb, they can get around by rolling a different setup rather than needing mega high end gear to deal with it. It's a complex issue with many sides, but as we have proven, people won't put aside differences to try and look at it mathematically.

 

I play renewal in a similar basis to you. I do TE and occasionally the other woes and I borrow gear sometimes characters. Establishment is more work than I wish to commit. Likewise, I return the deal on classic and I believe it's easier to establish people here.

 

So you may only have followed this thread up to now or w/e but I just want you to know that I am bringing people to the server weekly. I do not like to carry them the whole way (so many burns behind me) but give them the tools to establish. Mercs, some starting zeny, a hide clip and advise. That's it. No more. After that they have to sell things to me or pull their weight in a party.

 

Am I harsh like that? Maybe, but I don't like the way classic has devolved into people carrying others for WoE only play. But that experience has given me a lot of insight into the new player experience on the server...

 

So these ideas of a WoE TE on classic are great, but damage is high and the groups are established. The same people will run around with their non god/boss gear in their large groups and decimate and discourage new players. It doesn't work the way people WANT it to in terms of "teaching". It will be an alternative avenue of combat for current groups. Does this sound familiar?

 

Classic's community is heavilly split between various groups and those go from "moba style woe only pserver players" to full on mmo players and nobody can decide what type of server they want. You see posts here between people who want a full mmo server and woe to reflect that (of which I think my guild are mostly in that category) and there's the ones who want it to be separate and unrelated to our pvm experience.

Personally I don't like infinite supplies. Some of which became a necessary evil because of bots/pserver mentality causing numbers to drop if the supplies aren't available. Weight management? I can only carry 400 potions at a time, go me. I carry more gear than was ever dreamed of when the weight limits were designed (our renewal gear on classic!)

 

Sacrifices are necessary and I'm kind of wondering if an across the board reduction in damage might be the way to go... a slight alteration of WoE physics. It's a scary thing if they mess it up, but it could do a lot of good without hurting any gear balance or relationship between equips.

 

I very much agree. I think I get what you mean and that is a good example regarding MVP cards. A method to determine how to balance those items could be by asking for example, "This MVP card does X, what non-MVP/God related methods or alternatives can handle, disable or defeat that challenge?" "Are these solutions adequate or satisfactory to the players (should there be additional means or these means improved)?". It could be better than nerfing if the players are given options but also ensure that if something does get nerfed it was deserving of one. I don't know if God Items need to be treated in this way however.

 

Nice work on bringing in players. It's not harsh what you do, it's hard. I've tried to assist friends or new players, offer advice, "tank", level with them or give them shortcuts through gears. Even then it can be tough for them to stay put if they don't see some reward for their patience. If the players still feel like they aren't able to really participate in the game throughout all the MMO experiences of Questing, Boss battles or Raids, they up and leave. It's a bummer knowing it's a WoE killer when these issues eliminate potential future members.

Not sure what can be done to deal with better or larger groups of players defeating newbies or small groups. There could be methods of crowd control improved or force a way to equalize team numbers (like battlegrounds), I think that issue will always persist in the current format for as long as people want the freedom WoE offers.

 

Spoiler

I'm gonna go on a rant and give an unrealistic crazy idea that doesn't have anything to do with the balance discussions and requires a new server or game that I always wished could be done on RO:

 

A change for the game is to reduce or eliminate entirely the necessity for consumable items, particularly potions. People will panic because this is their means of making zeny, rely on it to tank, survive to dps in pvp/woe or to do solo activities like leveling, mvping etc. Some don't think they can rely on support players in competitive events. Obviously, this drastic change will require balance changes from 'across the board reductions' as you suggest, to improvements in healing abilities, how those skills are performed, higher natural regeneration along with regeneration items, adjusting and creating cards or equipment that fit and compliment the change etc. I think this can be beneficial for PVP as it eliminates the concerns of auto pot, the need for delays on other consumables, weights, farming etc. Makes teamwork a priority. It's easier on guild leaders who depend on players who just show up and leave with supplies. It could help those being too 'poor' to play in pve or pvp if there are other means to support their play.

 

Again, this is simply creating a new game you can ignore this.

Edited by Tora, 03 December 2015 - 01:09 AM.

[Xellie]

This is the kind of discussion that has the ability to uncover and create ideas.

 

I quite like the idea of drawing up a chart of mvp card counters, be it skills or items. It would be worth noting the downsides of these counters too and seeing how that all plays out on paper.

 

God Items are a subject I dare not touch past saying "It's not my fault nobody else chose to make theirs".

 

 

New players need a defined idea of the experience this server is creating. Many come here for the whole old RO feel. Something I can only define as 2006. There's no words. Others come purely for WoE. The expectations need to be defined. Are we a WoE / Moba server? Are we an MMO where you're expected to play the whole game?

 

That said I think BG content to give the moba kick people need is also totally a great idea.There's much more control over that in terms of numbers/items/allies etc too.

 

A lot of the new players I bring in don't want to be dropped into WoE. They want to wander the world, level, figure it out, not be indebted, be independent. It's great. I love them newbies <3 They want their own character and identity. They want to play something they affiliate themselves with in WoE... it's a very oldschool way of thinking. I looooove it.

 

I want to see more crossing of goals. Get people working in PVM for their supplies and interacting with people who PVM for money or to level. TIs would be the best way to do this and it would solve the desert wasteland problem Classic imposes on it's novice players.

 

 

 

I think a lot of people have dreams of changes that would ultimately make RO not RO. There's very limited resources to work with and that is sad, but I like to approach RO as a big problem to be solved. Is XYZ possible without ripping the game up entirely? I think it can be solved by getting creative!

 

I'm just super sad that so very few people want to dig into it and look at it broadly. It's so much more than just what happened last WoE or the one player/guild people hate. (there's no game without "sides") 

 

Edited by Xellie, 03 December 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[rojoky113]

I'm just sayin, a lot of the suggested directions I had for the TE woe, post-janeway TIs, MVPing etc. aims to tackle some of those problems you guys are discussing like larger guilds running around stomping smaller guilds in TE, giving players new to woe ways to quickly become at least mildly relevant without making the rest of the game and gearing themselves the proper way irrelevant, getting new players exploring the game and partying with experienced players to teach them, etc.

 

I would love more feedback and opinions on how people felt about those suggestions, or ways they would change them. Some ideas are less realistically possible than others but I really just want to hear people put more ideas for actual changes to combat the problems with woe/pvm/bg/mvping.

 

This is how constructive discussions and eventually positive changes are made. Civil brainstorming on what the issues are with classic, the underlying problems, and figuring out solutions that are realistic for warp portal that would help solve those problems. It's not going to be perfect and it's not going to be everything every person wants in its entirety, but I think most people can find that good ideas will cater at least somewhat to their desires if not fulfill all of them as if classic was their own pserver to run.

 

And I'm gonna be really frank, if it seems to some people that their ideas are given less merit and that others are listened to more readily and that bothers you, it may be because solutions like "completely remove huge aspects of the game, nuke popular kafra items that bring in significant steady income for the server, totally reset the server, and/or revamp your entire subscription and revenue model" are not going to be feasible, realistic, or popular with the significant server population that isn't the handful of people that come here to voice loudly their opinions on these subjects repeatedly. Suggestions like "try to add a third woe with rule changes that cater to new guilds or other groups looking for a different meta" or "expand TIs to encourage pvm interaction to help new players and give older players good reasons to play with them instead of solo-grinding/thors" or "make changes to god drops and god creation that were needed like yesterday to make more guilds willing/able to participate while not making it so easy for one guild that wants to try hard to spam creation for days seriously you guys need to do this " are ways to take steps in the right direction without destabilizing the entire server.

 

Those running this game are small in number, resources, and funds.They are not going to entirely rock the boat and they are going to be limited in what they are willing and able to accomplish. We have to work within those constrictions.

Edited by rojoky113, 03 December 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[Ramses]

well, most of the current problems would be fixed if WP made an effort to advertise this game... lately i'm finding ppl that didn't even know this server existed and only found out about it by chance.... that's happening quite often

[Mischelle]

New players need a defined idea of the experience this server is creating. Many come here for the whole old RO feel. Something I can only define as 2006. There's no words. Others come purely for WoE. The expectations need to be defined. Are we a WoE / Moba server? Are we an MMO where you're expected to play the whole game?

 

That said I think BG content to give the moba kick people need is also totally a great idea.There's much more control over that in terms of numbers/items/allies etc too.

 

A lot of the new players I bring in don't want to be dropped into WoE. They want to wander the world, level, figure it out, not be indebted, be independent. It's great. I love them newbies <3 They want their own character and identity. They want to play something they affiliate themselves with in WoE... it's a very oldschool way of thinking. I looooove it.

 

I want to see more crossing of goals. Get people working in PVM for their supplies and interacting with people who PVM for money or to level. TIs would be the best way to do this and it would solve the desert wasteland problem Classic imposes on it's novice players.

 

I think a lot of people have dreams of changes that would ultimately make RO not RO. There's very limited resources to work with and that is sad, but I like to approach RO as a big problem to be solved. Is XYZ possible without ripping the game up entirely? I think it can be solved by getting creative!

 

I'm just super sad that so very few people want to dig into it and look at it broadly. It's so much more than just what happened last WoE or the one player/guild people hate. (there's no game without "sides") 

 

Red:

An mmo is an mmo, and a moba is a moba.  If a person wants to play a moba style game, they will go and play a game that is designed and tailored to that genre.  While improving the battlegrounds experience is a good idea, under no circumstances should it be believed that doing so will attract a moba crowd.  This is because if this belief is held, then there will be unrealistic expectations about what such improvements can and should accomplish.  Having unrealistic expectations is a quick road to failure.
 

 

Blue:

Newbies want to be independent and be their character because their character is at the same time an individual having it's own traits and an extension of themselves.  That's the RPG element coming into play.  The fact that these characters are persistent is the draw of the mmorpg.

Anything that can be done to enhance the experience of character development and relationships to other characters and players is a boon to the game.

 

Green:

This begs the question of what is, and what isn't, RO.  These two paragraphs are easily read as self referential.

[Xellie]

I'm just sayin, a lot of the suggested directions I had for the TE woe, post-janeway TIs, MVPing etc. aims to tackle some of those problems you guys are discussing like larger guilds running around stomping smaller guilds in TE,

 

You are talking about guilds who split into teams to fight themselves in an empty castle because of a lack of competition. I don't think the rewards are any motivating factor to them at all.

 

 

Red:

An mmo is an mmo, and a moba is a moba.  If a person wants to play a moba style game, they will go and play a game that is designed and tailored to that genre.  While improving the battlegrounds experience is a good idea, under no circumstances should it be believed that doing so will attract a moba crowd.  This is because if this belief is held, then there will be unrealistic expectations about what such improvements can and should accomplish.  Having unrealistic expectations is a quick road to failure.
 

 

Blue:

Newbies want to be independent and be their character because their character is at the same time an individual having it's own traits and an extension of themselves.  That's the RPG element coming into play.  The fact that these characters are persistent is the draw of the mmorpg.

Anything that can be done to enhance the experience of character development and relationships to other characters and players is a boon to the game.

 

Green:

This begs the question of what is, and what isn't, RO.  These two paragraphs are easily read as self referential.

 

Red: You clearly haven't met half the classic community. This is why they don't play outside of WoE and want items disabled and numbers capped. To replicate those sorts of games.

A lot of pservers set these kind of expectations and we have a community with a large proportion demanding this gameplay experience from an mmo.

 

Blue: yay we agree on something sorta kinda maybe i'm not even sure

[rojoky113]

Those guilds seem to prefer woe 2.0 and gvg meta, most small guilds seem to like 1.0.

 

If better drops, their preferred woe arena, and the hope that those they would want to fight as actual competition tending to 2.0 for those incentives even if they don't care isn't enough to take some heat off the small guilds, there isn't really much of a chance of it ever happening.

 

2.0 castles also take more time and effort to attack, defend and fortify, which will tie up those larger guilds more than 1.0 does. They'll still likely go for 1.0 end forts but needing to defend a 2.0 and the reduced castles meaning more competition, they aren't gonna be able to just go easily take all the 1.0s from smaller guilds at the end either.

[Xellie]

I prefer WoE 1 ^^

[Rastaban]

I say create defensive god items. If you want balance, then COUNTER the items.

 

I like this idea (all the way back on page 1).

 

Being forced to find new ways to kill/disable people (or even ignoring them altogether if they become too hard to kill relative to more dangerous people) is a more rewarding experience than trying to figure out ways to not get oneshotted (usually futilely).

[zerowon]

I like this idea (all the way back on page 1).

 

Being forced to find new ways to kill/disable people (or even ignoring them altogether if they become too hard to kill relative to more dangerous people) is a more rewarding experience than trying to figure out ways to not get oneshotted (usually futilely).

 

am sorry but at the current time there is alot of players who can default gr/dr with gtb and be near godlike if you want more defensive gear kro added it to the game in the form of kvm.armor/accessories  there has to be balance into what each class can do on there own and in the group play of things. small guilds cant compete cause there built into a team orientated fashion and not dependent on godlikes/mvps not every guild is going to force the ppl that show up to play something they dont want to have a perfect class composition they want to have fun on something they like to play. At the end of the day its a game and if its not fun people will spend there time elsewhere!!!

the gm team lacks resources and staff to code things properly Hq also Korean masters don't have any interests in this server since the start and have been fighting tooth and nail whenever they require stuff from them. they also have the same staff working on renewal and its updates so alot of stuff gets half way done then something shiny comes about and we forget what projects were trying to finish and leave it on the work bench.

things we haven't tried yet but should

1. KVM armors and accessories

2. a new battle grounds type

3. woe te no gods/mvps or mini boss (this is also the hardest to do as it requires at least 6k line of code and the server needs refresh it every second so you will lag more )

4. penalty system for one sided fights ie in zeny/ castle loots (this is prolly also hard to discern against cause there is so many variables)

5. actually hire a competition director who has a mission statement and is not affiliated with anyone in game/forums so you will have to go look at actually pay to play leagues  to get one here

[rojoky113]

New BGs would be dope. Also see what I said earlier in this thread about the current issues plaguing tierra.

 

No minis in TE? Go ahead, I'll enjoy one shotting everything with fist while having 99 base dex and being stun immune. Fist and reflect meta will be a blast.

 

Kvm armor might not be horrible, accessories are kinda BS. Weapons never.

 

Also are you really suggesting people be penalized for one sided fights? Strongly strongly disagree with thinking that level of coddling would ever be a good thing. Not like this would ever happen though. Uneven fights happen, its woe. If you are losing and don't like it, work to get stronger/better/bigger. That's kinda the whole point.

Edited by rojoky113, 03 December 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Mischelle]

Red: You clearly haven't met half the classic community. This is why they don't play outside of WoE and want items disabled and numbers capped. To replicate those sorts of games.

A lot of pservers set these kind of expectations and we have a community with a large proportion demanding this gameplay experience from an mmo.

 

I've met and played with the classic community.  The current community is made of players who won't quit the game regardless of how badly the game is managed.  If someone is still playing now, after all the betrayals and mismanagement, I can hardly imagine any future situation that would cause these players to quit.

 

Capping numbers is not replicating the moba genre, unless the numbers are capped at like, 5 per team and teams are always divided with equal numbers on each side.  For the record, I don't think that limiting the number of people who can be in a guild, or the number of guilds in an alliance, will have any significant effect on the state of the game.  And if there is any effect, it may be detrimental instead of positive.

 

That is to say, I don't see max guild size as a relevant issue.  It isn't on my radar.

 

Disabling items is not an attempt to replicate the moba genre either, unless having balanced and fun mechanics is so exclusive to mobas that trying to implement game balance constitutes mechanic plagiarism.  But this falls back into the territory of you mocking me and I you.  I simply don't believe that MvP and miniboss cards are balanced, and you believe they are.

 

Or you concede that they are not, but maintain that unfair items are an acceptable mechanic for a mmorpg to have.

 

It has already been established that private servers use superior (though different) software and (depending on the server) have superior GM and dev teams.  iRO can't even begin to emulate the effectiveness of the best pservers as a result of the requirement to use the aegis server.  None of the suggestions I've made require pserver software nor do they mimic pserver mechanics.

 

not every guild is going to force the ppl that show up to play something they dont want to have a perfect class composition they want to have fun on something they like to play. At the end of the day its a game and if its not fun people will spend there time elsewhere!!!

1. KVM armors and accessories

2. a new battle grounds type

3. woe te no gods/mvps or mini boss (this is also the hardest to do as it requires at least 6k line of code and the server needs refresh it every second so you will lag more )

4. penalty system for one sided fights ie in zeny/ castle loots (this is prolly also hard to discern against cause there is so many variables)

5. actually hire a competition director who has a mission statement and is not affiliated with anyone in game/forums so you will have to go look at actually pay to play leagues  to get one here

 

Key to improving WoE is that the meta needs to move away from having a "WoE character".  The scene was better when there was the idea of having a "main" and you went to WoE on it.  This is because then WoE is not just a gvg event that you as a player engage in, using your character as a tool to participate; instead WoE is another adventure that your character has in the persistent world of the game.

 

1. I disagree that new gear would improve the scene.  What more and better gear does offensively is to make the other players of the game have less play time.  They die faster and more often.  Defensively, more gear can also make the game less fun, as other players are less able to interact with you (interacting by beating the crap out of your character).

2. Another battlegrounds is unlikely to improve the game's outlook, it might, but for the effort it would take to implement, the improvement in the game would likely not be worth it.

3. Another WoE has already been ruled out.  The suggestion that standard WoE be no gods is currently being argued over.

4. Penalties are both impractical and unfair.  The last thing you want to do is penalize people for participating in part of the game you are trying to promote.

5. Hiring new management may improve the game, but it just as well might not.  This depends on the person hired and how good they are at their job.  Nevermind that the additional cost of such an individual is probably not in the company's budget.

[rojoky113]

Ragnarok and woe are sort of built around imbalance of power, not everyone who walks in will be on the same level. The games sorta designed to be a big competition over castles in woe and mvps in pvm in pursuit of those fabled rewards of power. God items and mvp cards are supposed to very powerful. The problem is they aren't supposed to be everywhere, which is where classic has already done goofed through high drops/low pop/not listening to repeated warnings about what would happen.

 

Idk part of the problem really is there only seems to be one old school guild really driven to compete and most people joining the server with that attitude end up there because of that. There really needs to be two or three valhallas on the server.

Edited by rojoky113, 03 December 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[zerowon]

i doubt u can move from the woe only meta at this point as its been since 2013 with guild surplus boxes reared there head

http://forums.warppo...spirits-within/

here a spreadsheet was posted saying it took them close to 45 hours a week to farm/ pot and supply there guilds the old fashioned way. hunting and buying from bot farms i can also atest to the high start up costs of certain classes during the first 2 years of the server your initial cost to gear a bio chem urself was close to 600m if you got lucky with sloted mids as morroc gear was not in for stun immune and my cost for 2 woes was close to 230m that was just 2k bombs. go look at the prices now a drop in the bucket attrition wore players out as most of us are middle aged and have careers we are not the retired baby boomer bunch of the 2000s who could spend /waste money and time as we pleased.people tend to forget that most guilds during the early days had expectations of there members you were at least required to be proficient in your class and reliable to gather enough mats/gear for your self there was very liltle hand holding back then and most high end gear was account bound and pricey. sloted mids was account bound and rng favored.

so in summary maybe we should look at what it costs to actually gear chars for a woe guild from mid 2013 to today.

bg only gear is not really acceptable in todays meta kvm would be the only way a new guild could compete vs established mvp/godlike guilds

 

 

 

[rojoky113]

I don't think throwing kvm onto the server is going to make much of a difference and suddenly make small guilds who don't want to try or put in effort competitive again. I'm also definitely in the group of players that think kvm gear as a whole is poorly balance and would cause much more problems than they would solve, especially anything more than just the armor. Not worth it imo.

 

Also you would think with some of those 45 hours each week spent supplying that GSBs save more guilds would be willing to roll the seals and make their god sets, since guilds that have them seem to be such an issue.

Edited by rojoky113, 03 December 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[schia]

One thing I never liked about the KVM armor was the amount of time it took to get enough tokens to acquire them.  Perhaps rolling kvm tokens into the same as the bg tokens would be something to consider if KVm armor was ever implemented.

 

Still think there should be 1 centralized token system to save on total item count as iirc classic is limited on the total number of items that can be in the game.

[Xellie]

Oneway. Blow me. I mean, Sonic Blow me. I die to it all the time. (this is intended to be phrased in a joking manner, please do not get angry lol)

 

There's nothing godlike about dying to SB or getting instant frozen then fisted. Iiiiiiiinfact it can be kind of embarrassing. For all other issues tho, you have fiberlock. Or simply SWing the emp.

Did you know a sinx with 22k hp still dies to some Asura with CK GR and DR if they wear GTB? No you didn't know that! I did tho because it happens often enough.

 

And sure we can do it on our LKs too, but they suffer pretty much the same fate.

 

 

I want you to give an example where KVM is superior to current gear and helps against the situations currently ingame. How does it help a small guild walk through a 3 Hibram precast with 7 infinity ygg champs waiting outside the CP and 2~3 thana/SS sinx GTing and 2~3 bombers? What does kvm possibly do against that?

 

And the point is there will be more hibram/thana/ss all condensed into these small groups as time goes on. Meaning that your only potential competition, these new people, need to counter those and possibly in high numbers.

 

Pretend you're a small guild. Tell me what you do. There are no other small guilds, they all have mvps/god/mini. You just started. Empty castles are boring. What do YOU DO? How will KVM help?

 

[AlmrOfAtlas]

How will KVM help?

 

It will boost the population, fix all the item imbalances, provide more PvM content, deter cheating and abusive behaviour, and revitalise the economy.

 

Nothing KvM can't do.