257 replies to this topic

[Hissis]

Please if you have never play a SC, do not state SC is OP base on solely your feeling toward the class.

1) how is a SC hard to kill, if people are not doing it wrong?
Its HP max out at ~50k, a properly chained tao GOH can kill a SC in 2 hits
A Warlock using stone curse and white imprison combo can disable the SC as so call useless dead man easily.
A ranger can one shot sc with no limit.
A RK with bradium flaid and kaltz and proper state build and easily force SC to escape because masq hardly works fast enough before SC dies.
A sura can cc and disable SC instantly, with only poting available, the SC is likely to Be dead.
A RG can kill a SC in 2 eb, without god items.
Not to mention howls.
RG almost have non of the above problems.


2) Then how about CC? everyone can do nothing but pot and it's also an AOE debuff, so everyone is useless as dead man you say? Sura has much more mobility than a shadow chaser, and can target whoever he want, this is a funny argument btw.

3) Oh you THINK you can one shot any TAO users? It's SC's fault now? RG doesn't need inspiration to survive.

4) In reality not much more except maybe 1s faster than using speedpots. The only time a SC survive fkick into the mob of enemy is when everyone is Stasis ed.

Again since most people have never play and probably have no idea how to counter SC, doesn't mean SC is OP and have to be punished.

 

1) Wat MAX HP 50k? my ranger can get 50k without +20 VIT .

 

True,GOH can kill almost everything,specially with TAO but don't change the fact that SC is broken

 

S>Gemini Card/S>Maya Card/S>100 mdef gears/S>Feint Bomb

 

Ranger one shotting SC in WoE Scenario? Only if the ranger has MVP cards and rangers can't survive  without SAC 

 

Without god? wtf,My 60k Sura using bryn/temporal/gfss can handle almost every single non godly/mvp EB 

S>LUK 

 

I know how to counter SC but most of them can handle my damage (since i don't have MVP) and just spam masq until sucess.

 

 

Edited by Hissis, 07 May 2016 - 08:54 AM.

[VModCinnamon]

Derail and inciting drama posts have been removed.

Further guild/alliance drama will put the poster on probation, this is a warning.

[Myzery]

Derail and inciting drama posts have been removed.

Further guild/alliance drama will put the poster on probation, this is a warning.

 

The GM guild sucks. They haven't held a castle in forever.

[sheepmia]

First and last statement: lol. Clearly you don't know my game accounts.

1.1) Shadow Formation. 

Also, the same GoHs will drop an RG unless he's on DA. In which case he's slow as mud and can't kill crap unless you walk next to him.

1.2) WL can just as well Stone/WI the RG. 

1.3) Same as GoH's, Defending Aura.

1.4) If you can't use Masq: Weakness before your hp drops to 0 from a flail+katz RK, then you're seriously doing something wrong. Very wrong. 

1.5) SC can weakness the RG even before he can get one EB off. Or he could just manhole him. Also he can just pot it right back up.

1.6) A sura can CC an RG as well. Follow that up with a Dispell, and RG is much more vulnerable than SC.

1.7) Howls will prevent RG from killing anything either. Just that now the SC has to speed pot to escape, like an RG always has to.

 

2) I mentioned in an earlier post to remove the damage that the Sura has from TC and GoH in order to balance them, then they will only be a disable/mobile class. The difference between CC and Masq is very obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. CC isn't targeted, the Sura needs to snap to you. Once he uses CC, he is placed under CC state as well. CC only lasts 6 seconds, with an 8 second cooldown, while masqs have 2sec cooldown when successful, and last 20 seconds. The comparison wasn't between SC and Sura. It was SC and RG, when did Sura come in. Either way, Sura is also OP because of their mobility. No disagreement there.

 

3) Tao suras can be one shotted. Tao Exceed Break RGs can be one shotted. Tao SCs? Not so much.

 

4) Pretty sure there's video footage of SCs completely destroying backlines without stasis.

 

And this is all notwithstanding the additional power that the SC has from Bloody Lust/ Chaos Panic/ Maelstrom/ Reproduce. Also Full Divestment, which forces people to use FCP. And Divest Accessory. 

 

1.1) Shadow formation can be easily cancel with revealing skill, which comes with a delay, using shadow formation is the same as committing suicide in many cases.

1.2) You completely ignore the stat resistance of RG vs SC.. RG has high str and luk which make stone curse and WI close to impossible.

1.3) W/O defending Aura, not that difficult, not to say there is another skill call guard

1.4) Again you completely ignore the stat resistance of masq on an agi build RK, and the SC needs to have instant cast as a requirement, not to say a SC need to prioritize surviving over masq.

1.5) Not if RG is in inspiration. Manhole is the only viable option left, which does not kill anyone. Again SC is made for debuff, if you strip away this ability to effectively debuff, it becomes completely useless.

1.6) Yet you don't need a dispell to kill that CCed SC

1.7) Yeah so not so OP as you have said

 

2) OK

 

3) If someone can one shot a TAO RG he can surely one shot a Tao SC, not hard to understand. 

 

4) That's the other groups fault.. And that footage is how many years ago? People only show off their successful moments, that's in itself not proof that SC is OP.

     Pretty sure there is a lot of 10+ mins footage of a RG destroying a whole guild alone. And one footage of a RG tanking a whole guild for ~2 mins. 

     Let me provide the link for you https://www.youtube....h?v=o9bY3DTBDS8

     Can SC ever do that ?? Nope. The video can go on forever if masquerade weakness is nerfed. You seriously think that is balanced??

Edited by sheepmia, 07 May 2016 - 10:01 AM.

[Ashuckel]

Because obviously every RG in the server is walking with Mjol, Tao and 2 Megs.
Besides, damage calculation isnt your strong point is it?

[Myzery]

Manhole should usually be the priority on an RG. That build is a one trick pony and like Ash said, so it's easy to identify and shutdown the crit RGs.
Also, if a guild is giving megs to an RG over something like a sura then idk.

[PervySageMarty]

I think the flames in this thread are too intense now, i am scared.

Everyone is attacking at everyone else, cant we all calm down and work through this in a more gentlemanly way?

[miliardo]

When anything about woe comes up there will always be drama. As someone stated that these changes can make or break the server, so people being worried is normal. There are good points on both sides. I'm on the side of caution as I would like skills be tested before implementing any huge changes that can make server break.

[meditation]

 

Replying in PM since thread is now locked
 
 

• • Changing the Meta
    • Potions need a fixed cool down of about 200 miliseconds to compensate there should be a 25% increase to potion healing ability.

 
A huge glaring problem with this approach is that it gives an out-sized advantage to players who use Flamel card and also players who use percentage-based (rather than fixed amount) healing items in WoE, such as WoE White Potions, but not limited to those, as there are other restorative items which grant a percentage of health per consumable.
 
In recognition of this, if a 200 ms delay on potions is to implemented, then my proposal is to disable Flamel Card in WoE, and make ranked slim whites heal a percentage of HP in WoE, such as 10%. Unranked would heal 8%.
 
Otherwise the only reasonable garment for every player in WoE to default is Flamel, as a 200 ms potion delay would essentially force it.

 

 

 

Cause actually how many potions are you using per second? 10-15? I think i'm using 2-3 per second if i'm lucky cause of my net and the fact that  i live in europe (huge distance from the server). So why disabling flamel card? Lol. Speechless, really.

 

EDIT: Add the 0,2s delay, that's all. 5 potions per second are not enough, really?? Also using flamel card in woe means no reduction card (no marse, no myst, no raydric, no deviling), no damage cards (menblatt etc.). You are sacrificing a really important card slot (garment) to get more heal from ranked slims. Just delete the card from server database i guess?

Edited by meditation, 07 May 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[WolfTri]

When anything about woe comes up there will always be drama. As someone stated that these changes can make or break the server, so people being worried is normal. There are good points on both sides. I'm on the side of caution as I would like skills be tested before implementing any huge changes that can make server break.

Agreed there. Difficult to test on Sakray, WoE as a scenario is really difficult to replicate. I think GMs should be very prepared to immediately revert any changes that are perceived as bad, and also closely monitor WoE after the changes are applied. 

[Ashuckel]

Flamel card is a lot more benefic to low Max HP classes.  Let's say someone has 40k hp, woe white heals 4k, while ranked slim+ flamel can heal like 6k+. This compensate their low hp pool(not really but meh) forcing slims to heal on a % base just decreases said classes survivability.

Edited by Ashuckel, 07 May 2016 - 11:22 AM.

[RaveMaster]

if ranked slims are going to heal 10% and there won't be change on increasing the heal% on woe whites.. then they are useless and will be a zeny loss for the investers, why i would use a woe white potion if the ranked slim will heal the same percentaje and it's more cheap? think about that campitor.

[meditation]

if ranked slims are going to heal 10% and there won't be change on increasing the heal% on woe whites.. then they are useless and will be a zeny loss for the investers, why i would use a woe white potion if the ranked slim will heal the same percentaje and it's more cheap? think about that campitor.

 

That's why they should just add the 0,14sec/0,2sec cooldown and leave the healing power as it is at the moment.

[ChakriGuard]

I cant lol enough how this topic has been derailed into "RG is OP".

Can you really name at least 10 Rgs who -_- up people in WoE? Nevermind, only 5 names should be challenging already. I personally can ez'ily name over 10+ annoying and OP SCs (and there are many other noobs SCs too).

I'm outside, so post your reason how a RG is OP and I'll come back to teach you how to ez counter a RG because I personally have never had any problems with any RGs in iRO beside Alligator who is my in game brother and I'm sharing all tricks and tips on how to play a real RG.

The bull-_- in this thread is worse than my one month aged fart hahaha

[sheepmia]

Because obviously every RG in the server is walking with Mjol, Tao and 2 Megs.
Besides, damage calculation isnt your strong point is it?

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=8p0VSsXMA3A

 

So this guy is using mjol tao and 2megs, you say?

 

That's with only eden gears and regular woe gears my friend lol. 

Obviously one shoting is the problem here and every negative comments go to SC first, logic?

 

Oh btw..

240k HP *cough* I am sorry. I should've never come up with CRIT EB in iRO 

 

240k HP *cough* I am sorry. I should've never come up with CRIT EB in iRO 

 

Edited by sheepmia, 07 May 2016 - 12:03 PM.

[Ashuckel]

i'm not even gonna say anything.

Fade in your own ridiculously

[Toxn]

Can't really pull up a 2012 video and expect it to be relevant almost 4 years later.

Loving the minimaps in 2012 when it was deemed illegal though :v

Edited by Toxn, 07 May 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[ShinobiEX3]

Status Immunity's?

[miliardo]

I cant lol enough how this topic has been derailed into "RG is OP".

Can you really name at least 10 Rgs who up people in WoE? Nevermind, only 5 names should be challenging already. I personally can ez'ily name over 10+ annoying and OP SCs (and there are many other noobs SCs too).

I'm outside, so post your reason how a RG is OP and I'll come back to teach you how to ez counter a RG because I personally have never had any problems with any RGs in iRO beside Alligator who is my in game brother and I'm sharing all tricks and tips on how to play a real RG.

The bull-_- in this thread is worse than my one month aged fart hahaha

No need to come back or do anything you can learn how to Rg from this https://forums.warpp...es/#entry723766

I think most discussion was on how sura/sc/wl op not Rg. Your only one who thinks Rg should being involved in nerf cause you want satisfaction that you build works. Only thing going on comparing shadow chaser to Rg(how they compare as far as usefulness). It was more of a pun argument and you still on it. Plz leave this thread as you contributed nothing to it. Skills should not go over walls like stasis/howl/frost joke going over walls are abused. Oh Meastro more nerf! It involves same effects and argument. if stasis howl not going to work I think we should look into frost joke as it is op freezing while not being able be countered by anything other then unfrozen. I think skills should only work for on screen players if this starts to effect skills like comet arrow stark so be it.

Edited by miliardo, 07 May 2016 - 12:18 PM.

[ChakriGuard]

So this guy is using mjol tao and 2megs, you say?

That's with only eden gears and regular woe gears my friend lol.
Obviously one shoting is the problem here and every negative comments go to SC first, logic?

Oh btw..

240k with low reduction is worse than full reduction 80k HP or even more with Tao?

Also that 240k HO is a result of Inspiration which has many weaknesses
> needs exp to cast
> 5 mins cooldown
> Stasis goes through
> SP drops to 0 and bye
> many other skills to counter

Again name at least 5 OP RGs in WoE that -_- up WoE (if you can because the class is actually OP, so there must be many of them)

[YuyaFungami]

Editing skills beyond fixing proper bugs will just drive more players to quit.

[Mulder1]

No need to come back or do anything you can learn how to Rg from this https://forums.warpp...es/#entry723766

I think most discussion was on how sura/sc/wl op not Rg. Your only one who thinks Rg should being involved in nerf cause you want satisfaction that you build works. Only thing going on comparing shadow chaser to Rg(how they compare as far as usefulness). It was more of a pun argument and you still on it. Plz leave this tread as you contributed nothing to it. Skills should not go over walls like stasis/howl/frost joke going over walls are abused. Oh Meastro more nerf! It involves same effects and argument. if stasis howl not going to work I think we should look into frost joke as it is op freezing while not being able be by anything other then unfrozen. I think skills should only work for on screen players if this starts to effect skills like comet arrow stark so be it.

 

Agreed. Since Stasis is getting hit, may as well look into all skills that bypass walls such as Frost Joke and Howling. I mean, we gotta be fair to everyone right? There should be no double standard for any class.

 

Like in any problem solving (for whoever is not a master black belt six sigma out there), we need to create our problem statement from current state and proceed with the timeline to see where things went south... A timeline of events can tell a lot of how things turn out the way they are and some ideas on how to fix it... after that a good Is / is not and root cause diagram prior start working on hypothesis. Failure to follow defined steps will incur in miss fixes and just a waste of time... and time, is money.

 

Thanks =)

[ShinobiEX3]

A balance banch should include statuse immunity update. Moving it from 100 stat points to ,130 stat points. So woe and the rest of the game is more enjoyable and actually becomes a guild battle since status effects are back into play. So everyone get off urbpride pleb parade and actually talk about this suggestion. Since it sounds more reasonable than anything you all have been saying.

Your welcome


Edit: except for casting over walls that's also a good idea. That should be stopped

Edited by ShinobiEX3, 07 May 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Toxn]

Agreed. Since Stasis is getting hit, may as well look into all skills that bypass walls such as Frost Joke and Howling.

Skills that bypass walls should be nerfed. Though, I would argue that Dazzler and Frost Joke could stay the way they are, simply because if it's an actual issue, you can solve that issue due to the fact they can be resisted 100%.

But Howl, Stasis and Hallu drug should be altered.

[Mulder1]

At this point of the the game, you can't or even better, you should NEVER rely on player's comments nor suggestions if you want to solve a problem.

 

Humans by default are biased hence having an impartial suggestion will be quite rare. Just build your timeline, brainstorm possible root causes and do a hypothesis test on each possible root cause by using data... how often does it happen, a simple correlation of events against a P-95 causation will give you a good understanding of your possible root causes... then proceed to save/discard hypothesis by doing a hypothesis test (basic 400 statistics).

 

I can tell you just by linking some nods that the root cause for your population decay and lack of interest in WoE is no the reasons people are suggesting here, those are just the symptoms but not the real root cause.

 

Hope you guys can do your diligent work prior releasing some of the stuff being discussed here... otherwise it will be the end of the server. Remember, every civilization has a point in history where they either move forward or die... and this is the decision point for us =). Please make it count.

 

Thank you.