257 replies to this topic

[Mulder1]

Skills that bypass walls should be nerfed. Though, I would argue that Dazzler and Frost Joke could stay the way they are, simply because if it's an actual issue, you can solve that issue due to the fact they can be resisted 100%.

 

That's called double standards. It should be all or none regardless if is an issue or not.

Edited by Mulder1, 07 May 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[YuyaFungami]

Stasis wouldn't even be a concern if we had stat resist for it already.

[Mulder1]

Stasis wouldn't even be a concern if we had stat resist for it already.

 

We do have. The formula we tested was released to everyone back in the day... what happen to it, I don't know.

 

But VIT is still able to reduce some of the variable skill duration.

[PervySageMarty]

I cannot fathom how taking away casting over walls will affect the AB's casting Clementia, Coluceo Heal and Canto Candidus over the walls, under the proposals to restrict skills from passing through walls, this cripples the AB's supportive capabilities as well, I ask, do we need to further cripple the only support class which has lost almost all its credentials, at least make the proposal be:

 

Restrict skills that are of a threat from passing through walls.

[Toxn]

Not really a double standard.

If Howl, Stasis and Hallu Drug could be resisted 100%, without the BS formulas they have now, I wouldn't have any issues.

But unfortunately, they don't. Which means there is practically no reasonable scenario for you to stop or do anything about over the wall casting of those skills. Sure, you can cure them, but only after the fact of them happening.

It would be a double standard if they worked the same way. They don't.

[Mulder1]

I cannot fathom how taking away casting over walls will affect the AB's casting Clementia, Coluceo Heal and Canto Candidus over the walls, under the proposals to restrict skills from passing through walls, this cripples the AB's supportive capabilities as well, I ask, do we need to further cripple the only support class which has lost almost all its credentials, at least make the proposal be:

 

Restrict skills that are of a threat from passing through walls.

 

Yup... that's what happen when you "Standardize Procedures". There are always pros and cons and we are the ones who have to live with it.

 

It may benefit some people and may affect others but at the end, that's what it needs to be done in order to not apply biased fixes.

[Mulder1]

Not really a double standard.

If Howl, Stasis and Hallu Drug could be resisted 100%, without the BS formulas they have now, I wouldn't have any issues.

But unfortunately, they don't. Which means there is practically no reasonable scenario for you to stop or do anything about over the wall casting of those skills. Sure, you can cure them, but only after the fact of them happening.

It would be a double standard if they worked the same way. They don't.

 

Well... BS or not, formulas are there. It's up to you if you want to follow them or not.

 

Yup, a clear case of double standard. Double Standard doesn't mean anything you just said, it has to do with the solution given to a problem not the problem itself.

[miliardo]

Skills that bypass walls should be nerfed. Though, I would argue that Dazzler and Frost Joke could stay the way they are, simply because if it's an actual issue, you can solve that issue due to the fact they can be resisted 100%.

But Howl, Stasis and Hallu drug should be altered.

Well if we talking about nerfs over walls that is the main thing abused tbh. It can be spammed and effet players spawning from portals. It should be looked into as it's easy to abuse regardless of resist. If gm going implement resist cool but its a skill goes over walls and effects all players who are not resist to it. You could say that staid is resisted by GTB. If your frozen (besides sura only one who can get self out) no class can heal self of. People don't always default unfrozen or got unfrozen set. This is an abused skill should be involved in balance changes.

[Toxn]

I'm not against Frost Joke and Dazzler receiving the same treatment if this was to actually happen, but definitely is arguable that its unnecessary for those skills.

Only when Stasis, Howl and Drug can be 100% resisted from stats like frozen and stun can, then i'll consider them to be the same case.

Edited by Toxn, 07 May 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[miliardo]

I'm not against Frost Joke and Dazzler receiving the same treatment if this was to actually happen, but definitely is arguable that its unnecessary for those skills.

I understand maestros are becoming useless char but that's due to all the nerfs. So how many other classes got to become useless before we deem woe fair?

[Mulder1]

I'm not against Frost Joke and Dazzler receiving the same treatment if this was to actually happen, but definitely is arguable that its unnecessary for those skills.

 

Indeed... but fixes have to be applied to every skills that bypasses walls.

 

If you want to apply a fix to a certain group, sadly you need to involve the whole group so it doesn't seem as double standard. It's quite logical to be honest.

 

You cannot pin point changes to benefit classes while leaving other that may or may not be exploited intact. Hence why Standards have to be put in place for everyone. That's a fact, arguable or not.

[Toxn]

Then by all means: Either prevent every skill from bypassing uncastable cells or add 100% immunities via resistant% gear or stats for Stasis, Howl and Drug.

Stasis immunity via GTB is barely a balance.

Edited by Toxn, 07 May 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[Myzery]

Having resists is the best route. It actually gives variety to builds and would make you have to choose what you wanted to be resistant to.
In most games, things that are too strong are toned down. It makes sense for nothing to go through walls, but you can't possibly compare the strength of howl and stasis to stun or freeze.
You should always be vulnerable to something though. It was fun back in the day having to swap between unfrozen and deadly (GR if you had it). You were punished if you were bad at it.
 

Edited by Myzery, 07 May 2016 - 12:51 PM.

[Mulder1]

When applying standards, you need to be able to see the whole picture and do some protocols to verify that your changes will not affect more of what you are suppose to.

 

A good example would be if you work in a project to modify a pH range for a precipitation... by doing so, you will be saving let's say a 30% of cycle time plus raw materials and man power... now the project cost around 130k dollars in get the parties involved to verify and approve your work.

 

Now, several months after the change, you get calls from Europe saying that your product is causing clogging in their equipment due to proteins not being able to precipitate fast enough during prior steps in the process... so since you didn't do your diligent work on analyze possible problems downstream when doing your protocol because you were just focus on your area. Now you have to revert what you did, which means the time and project cost is not a deficit for the year plus the re-work due to clogging problems... and just because you didn't do your homework as you were suppose to.

 

So yeah. If you are not able to see the whole picture, you should start doing it. =)

 

PS: There's a resistance formula for Stasis and howling... but it's not a 100% resistance.

If we go that route, please give us a 100% resistance formula to Cursed Circle. Thanks.

Edited by Mulder1, 07 May 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[miliardo]

Then by all means: Either prevent every skill from bypassing uncastable cells or add 100% immunities via resistant% gear or stats for Stasis, Howl and Drug.

Stasis immunity via GTB is barely a balance.

Exactly what we trying to do here balance resist with immunities. Nerf skills should be a last resort a good start would be fixing main problems like wall changes not the skill itself.

[Mulder1]

Exactly what we trying to do here balance resist with immunities. Nerf skills should be a last resort a good start would be fixing main problems like wall changes not the skill itself.

 

100% resistance formula for Cursed Circle plox.

 

Thanks =)

[Toxn]

Irrelevancies

K.
 

 

PS: There's a resistance formula for Stasis and howling... but it's not a 100% resistance.

If we go that route, please give us a 100% resistance formula to Cursed Circle. Thanks.

 

There are resistance formulas, obviously, But they have practically no significance in reality. Every third class status effect should have immunities like all other status effects in the game, and not useless resistances.

 

[Myzery]

When applying standards, you need to be able to see the whole picture and do some protocols to verify that your changes will not affect more of what you are suppose to.

 

A good example would be if you work in a project to modify a pH range for a precipitation... by doing so, you will be saving let's say a 30% of cycle time plus raw materials and man power... now the project cost around 130k dollars in get the parties involved to verify and approve your work.

 

Now, several months after the change, you get calls from Europe saying that your product is causing clogging in their equipment due to proteins not being able to precipitate fast enough during prior steps in the process... so since you didn't do your diligent work on analyze possible problems downstream when doing your protocol because you were just focus on your area. Now you have to revert what you did, which means the time and project cost is not a deficit for the year plus the re-work due to clogging problems... and just because you didn't do your homework as you were suppose to.

 

So yeah. If you are not able to see the whole picture, you should start doing it. =)

 

PS: There's a resistance formula for Stasis and howling... but it's not a 100% resistance.

If we go that route, please give us a 100% resistance formula to Cursed Circle. Thanks.

 

I think everyone can see the big picture (well hopefully) but some skills, I think should work over walls.
That's what makes certain things unique, but it should never be something that's so crippling and punishing that it is almost possible to counter or encourages people to use slaves.
I think getting a clutch stasis off actually requires more effort than most people give it.

[Mulder1]

I think everyone can see the big picture (well hopefully) but some skills, I think should work over walls.
That's what makes certain things unique, but it should never be something that's so crippling and punishing that it is almost possible to counter or encourages people to use slaves.
I think getting a clutch stasis off actually requires more effort than most people give it.

 

My whole point is that we are only attacking the symptoms but not the root cause itself. Sorry but it's so easy to see but we just fail to see it over and over.

 

Is Stasis OP? Yes

Why is it OP? Because it disables the whole 27x27 area.

Is it spammable? No, 5 min cooldown.

Why is it OP with 5 min cooldown? Because alt warlocks

Is it OP w/o alt warlocks? Not really, 5 min cooldown.

Is the skill at fault? No

Is the player at fault who runs alt warlocks? Yes, alt warlocks bypasses cooldown.

 

Soo... you have your root cause right there... is not the skill itself but the ability to run alt characters is what makes it OP.

 

Of course, we don't want to address the main root cause which is to not let people run alt characters because everyone will rage quit... so what do we do? attack the skill itself.

 

Ragnarok 101.

 

PS: I don't like Stasis but I like less how naive we are because are just biased and want to get away with what we want.

 

PS2:

 

Stasis

 

Fixed Cast Time: 1 second

Variable Cast Time: 3 seconds

Skill re-use Delay: 5 minutes

Global Skill Delay: 2 seconds

AoE: Level 1: 19x19

Level 2: 21x21

Level 3: 23x23

Level 4: 25x25

Level 5: 27x27

Duration: 5 second (fixed) + { Stasis Skill level * 5 - (Target’s VIT + DEX) / 20 }

(If this value becomes negative, the duration is set to 0)

 

[ChakriGuard]

No need to come back or do anything you can learn how to Rg from this https://forums.warpp...es/#entry723766

I think most discussion was on how sura/sc/wl op not Rg. Your only one who thinks Rg should being involved in nerf cause you want satisfaction that you build works. Only thing going on comparing shadow chaser to Rg(how they compare as far as usefulness). It was more of a pun argument and you still on it. Plz leave this thread as you contributed nothing to it. Skills should not go over walls like stasis/howl/frost joke going over walls are abused. Oh Meastro more nerf! It involves same effects and argument. if stasis howl not going to work I think we should look into frost joke as it is op freezing while not being able be countered by anything other then unfrozen. I think skills should only work for on screen players if this starts to effect skills like comet arrow stark so be it.

Oops I missed your post earlier hahaha

 

Not sure what I have to learn from there because I started and created the crit EB RG in 2012 :v
I was shocked though that so-called pro RG(s) didnt use crit EB because its so ez to come up. Maybe you just feel butthurt because you've been playing this game much longer than I ever have but then you're just sitting duck and going nowhere ... lmfao

Still I may have to get stronger on my RG but even in my bad form, my RG already rekts your Tao 2 Megs and +13 KVM  Sura (said by most people in the community to be one of the most OP classes in iRO) ez'ily without the use of Inspiration xD so I'm not sure what that says about you :v

Before you started attacking me personally, think first what -_- you've got to -_- talk xD

Edited by ChakriGuard, 07 May 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[Toxn]

Then do you have a solution to the problem with alt Warlocks being used to abuse stasis? Because if not, then thanks for bringing nothing to the table.

Meanwhile, the only thing that can be done without completely removing dual clienting from the game (which actually doesn't fix the issue anyways), is to balance the skill.

Edited by Toxn, 07 May 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Mulder1]

Then do you have a solution to the problem with alt Warlocks being used to abuse stasis? Because if not, then thanks for bringing nothing to the table.

 

 

 

Soo... you have your root cause right there... is not the skill itself but the ability to run alt characters is what makes it OP.

 

Of course, we don't want to address the main root cause which is to not let people run alt characters because everyone will rage quit... so what do we do? attack the skill itself.

[Toxn]

Amazing at the lack of an actual solution there

[ShinobiEX3]

I gave solution no one listen-_-

[Ashuckel]

kRO fixed both resistance formula and that it doesn't go through walls. Do we really need this discussion? We just need that patch.